So I went to the gym to start the Stage 1 workouts with workout A. I know you're supposed to do the squats with a free bar (the 45 pound one) but I don't know if I'm strong enough to do those yet, so I figured I'd try the Smith machine to get an idea of how much I can do. There was a group of guys all together on a Smith machine next to me and when I was done with my warm-up set (not sure how much the bar in the smith machine weighs, but it's light, and that's what I did my warm-up with) they tapped me on the shoulder to tell me not to do it the way I was doing it. I was doing it like in the book, with my torso leaning forward so my weight was evenly distributed.
They were trying to tell me to squat with my feet much more forward so I was kind of leaning back on the smith bar, so that my back would be straight and perpendicular to the floor when going down. That didn't make any sense to me at all... first it felt un-natural, I also felt it only in my quads which are now shaking, and if I wasn't on a Smith machine I'd have fallen backwards. He said he was studying to be a personal trainer and that doing it the way I had done it was bad for me knees and my back and he had just been reading about it yesterday. My bf is a trainer and he does squats the way I did... are we right? Or is this random overly-helpful guy at the gym right? He was really nice, but I really just wanted him to go away, lol.
Either way I will have to re-do this workout because the gym was way too crowded, this situation made my quads want to cry and made me incredibly frustrated, I couldn't find something to do angled pushups on, and I couldnt' find a step either... ugh... so much for day 1
Thanks!
Ok, the one thing the smith machine IS good for is angled pushups. Just do them on the smith machine bar. But squats on the smith is not a good thing. If you think the 45 lb bar is too much, then use DB's until you can. For the step, you can use a bench.
Well for me, I only do squats with lighter dumbbells on my shoulders or just using body weight.
My physical therapist told me to never ever put a bar on my back and hold it for doing any type of exercise. He also said no one should ever do this for any type of exercise... .
Then I read how all this is studied and well thought out.
But I'm sticking to body weight or dumbbells for squats. depending on the exercise, I'll just skip it and find an alternative if it calls for an upward pulling motion or bar behind head.
i'd give the bar a shot, just unrack it and see if its light enough for you to squat. if its too heavy, just put it back. its its good, then squat.
using DBs is a great alternative to the BB squat if you can't perform it. the squat showed in the book is correct, so keep working on the form (you can do this with just your bodyweight) and you'll get better at it and stronger.
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Well for me, I only do squats with lighter dumbbells on my shoulders or just using body weight.
My physical therapist told me to never ever put a bar on my back and hold it for doing any type of exercise. He also said no one should ever do this for any type of exercise... .
Then I read how all this is studied and well thought out.
But I'm sticking to body weight or dumbbells for squats. depending on the exercise, I'll just skip it and find an alternative if it calls for an upward pulling motion or bar behind head.
I was doing Smith machine squats as well, against the recommendation of my chiropractor (she's told me also "no weight baring exercises directly on the spine").
Right now I am doing only BW squats for form (I blame my bad form on the Smith machine , I don't lean forward enough). I haven't decided yet if I am going to move on to using the Olympic bar or modify with dumbbells.
For now, if you are not comfortable with your form I would suggest starting with BW only. Believe me, you will still feel it!
So, I believe the thing is this... assuming I'm understanding correctly.
Basically, with a smith machine, the plane of motion is fixed, which is bad for you if you try to squat like you should. Free squatting is MUCH better than using the machine... your body doesn't move the bar in a fixed plane down and up... hence much better for you.
I think what he's talking about is a sort of work-around for using the smith... if you put your feet out more when you use it, the smith machine shouldn't be as bad for your body... to use it as if it were the same as a free squat is the main reason it's so bad.
However, the best thing is usually... don't use the smith for anything other than pushups and reverse pushups when you can't do "real" pushups or pullups. Try the bar for a couple, or use dumbbells.
As a physical therapist, I can tell you that many therapists think squats and deadlifts are "bad for you" then they go and teach proper body mechanics using the same movements.
Squatting with weight on your back CAN be bad for you if you have certain specific orthopedic dysfunctions. For the majority of people, squatting (with a weighted bar) is one of the best things they can do to strengthen their backs.
Any movements done improperly, loaded or not, have the potential to cause injury. So form is of the utmost importance.
Regarding the Smith machine. It's good to hang your sweaty towel on. It's good for incline pushups. It's good for inverted rows. It might even be good for split squats (sometimes called static lunges). It is horrible for squats.
I'm sure Lisa~ will pop by and put up some great links for proper squat form. I will tell you that your weight should be in your heels, your butt should reach back, your chest should stay lifted, but your trunk will likely angle forward (some more than others).
Some gyms have the pre-weighted bars. If using a bar is scary, then use dumbbells. But the bars are good because there are usually lower weight ones.
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If you've gotten off to a good start with squats--you're using a barbell (even if it's a little preset bar and you're not yet up to the big 45 lb Olympic bar)--but you have questions about form, then watch these excellent videos:
If you want to read about why the Smith machine isn't appropriate for squats (or bench presses for that matter), then this thread was a great discussion of the subject. It's a really long thread with some excellent commentary by Lou Schuler and JasonB (I miss him being around!):
What's bad about the Smith machine is the fixed line of motion. Overuse injuries caused from this fixed line of motion are called pattern overload. I’m not usually a fan of Paul Chek, but here is a two-part article of his that is actually very good.
Pattern Overload Part 1
(very long, but very good information, uses bench press as main example)
If you want to read about why the Smith machine isn't appropriate for squats (or bench presses for that matter), then this thread was a great discussion of the subject. It's a really long thread with some excellent commentary by Lou Schuler and JasonB (I miss him being around!):
After reading all these I figured I should try just doing bodyweight to make sure my form is good. I did them later today in front of a mirror at home and I think my form is fine. It's difficult to keep my knees from tracking inwards, so maybe I need to keep doing bodyweight for a while then start incorporating dumbells...
BTW.... those prone jack-knives are insane! ouch! lol
can I ask another question? I think I have flexibility issues that prevent me from going all the way down as low as some go--even with just body weight, it seems that when I go low, my body wants to rock forward onto my toes in order to get the butt below the knees but still keep the back in the correct posture.
one thing you can do if you can't squat the bar are step ups with DB. I believe someone posted on here a few weeks ago a very long article about the comparison of step ups to squats. the conclusion was that they are mutually beneficial to the same muscle groups and if anything the step up is safer. but you just have to make sure the step is the right height so you don't over work either your quad or hamstring. i believe the height was; you should have your leg that you are stepping with bent to 90 with your sole flat on the step and the leg thats on the ground should be on its toes. i am awful at explaining these things in words. but maybe you could try it.
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can I ask another question? I think I have flexibility issues that prevent me from going all the way down as low as some go--even with just body weight, it seems that when I go low, my body wants to rock forward onto my toes in order to get the butt below the knees but still keep the back in the correct posture.
My first guess would be a hip mobility restriction that prevents you from getting into the bottom position. I suggest you start by reading Mike Robertson's Hips Don't Lie: Fixing Your Force Couples article. Hopefully that information will help you determine a best next step in correcting the problem.
Also, you might learn a lot by reading through Lost Dog's log or talking to him about his hip tightness. He's had some great success in improving his squat depth by doing the prying drill (basically, sitting in the bottom squat position and working to open the legs and increase the depth of the position).
If you determine that increased hip mobility is what you need, then you might want to purchase Magnificent Mobility, which teaches a whole bunch of hip mobility drills that can be used as part of your warm-up as well as on off days.
I believe someone posted on here a few weeks ago a very long article about the comparison of step ups to squats. the conclusion was that they are mutually beneficial to the same muscle groups and if anything the step up is safer.
First, the NR4W Stage 1 workout already includes step-ups. We are squatting and doing step-ups, and both serve their purposes in a beginner workout.
Second, don't take that Bonderchuk article out of context. The focus was on elite level Soviet lifters who had spent years improving their squat poundages. They were no longer seeing additional benefits from continuing to attempt to increase the loads in squats. The author's opinion was that for those athletes no further improvements could be made with squats, but overloading single-limbs with heavy loads could offer continued improvements. The women in this thread have not yet reached that point of diminshing returns.
So here's my issue with squats...I have no squat rack to use. I only have a Smith machine. So can I still use it and move my feet out in front a bit? I have used the Smith machine for squats before and I feel like it's still a great squat. Right now I've been doing squats and holding dumbbells, but they are getting too heavy. In my current program (until I start NROL4W next week) I'm holding 2 30lb dumbbells for 8 reps. If I was to do any more reps my hands will fall off. It's not the weight itself, I feel like I could even add a bit more, but my hands just can't hold on. And the last issue, I NEVER go all the way down to where my butt is below my knees. I have knee issues from years and years of soccer and gymnastics so I try not to go below the 90 degree angle by much. Is this still ok? I'm a real stickler on form b/c of my knees and they already crack like crazy! (I probably need surgery...but am avoiding it at ALL costs...figure if I can take another 20lbs off of them by losing weight...I'll be golden) Thanks!
Lisa provided a bunch of great links earlier in this thread why using the Smith Machine for squats is bad. I would think your knee issues would be made worse with a SM squat, too. Plus, you are learning incorrect squat form on the Smith Machine which will make it hard for you to do it the proper way when not on the SM.
I agree with Aoife ... clean the DBs to your shoulders and rest them on your shoulders while squatting if your grip gets fried. Avoid the Smith machine at all costs!
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No, no squat rack. I have requested one and have found I'm not the only one to make that request...so maybe it'll happen.
I have tried the weights on my shoulders and it has worked in the past. The main reason I can't do it now is getting the weights TO my shoulders. Before, when it was less weight I just threw them up there. Now, I can't get that heavy of weight up there.
One other thing about squats. One of the main reasons I DO like holding the weights is b/c it seems to help my back form. I have found with weights on shoulders/back, it hurts my lower back. I have a slight sway back, which was great for gymnastics (I could bend all over the place), but I find when I do squats with weight on my upper back, it puts pressure on my lower back and it starts to curve. I do my best to pull my pelvis in to support, but then my upper back starts to round out so it's no longer straight. Does that make sense? I guess I've found the Smith machine allowed me to be able to concentrate more on tilting my lower spine so my back stayed straight.
Lisa provided a bunch of great links earlier in this thread why using the Smith Machine for squats is bad. I would think your knee issues would be made worse with a SM squat, too. Plus, you are learning incorrect squat form on the Smith Machine which will make it hard for you to do it the proper way when not on the SM.
Does your gym not have a squat rack?
I stand by this information. The link is in post #11. I hope you'll go back and read that thread about the Smith machine.
Does your gym have Olympic barbells anywhere? If you can't back squat, then it'd be worth the time to learn to clean the bar up for front squats. That's a new skill to learn, but if you're not going to change gyms, then I'd learn it. In the meantime, DB squats are the best option you've got available if there's truly no way to get under a bar.
As far as squat depth and knees, I encourage you to purchase Mike Robertson's Bulletproof Knees. It will help you decide why your knees have their particular issue and how to resolve it. Partial ROM squats are probably not the answer.
Disclosure: I've been recommending so many of Mike's products that I thought it'd be appropriate to clarify that I do not have any financial interest in them. I a big fan of Mike's and I've done some work for him, but I do not make any money when he sells a product.
Thanks for the advice. I hear what you're saying. We do have Olympic barbells. Do you mean, by cleaning up the bar, jerking and flipping the bar up to rest on the front of the shoulder? If so, when squatting, will I fall forward? It's looking like, for now, I'm going to just keep holding my 30 lbs weights and squatting w/that until we ever get a squat rack. I just really think I could lift a lot more weight. I did play soccer after all and don't have these monster thighs for nothing!
I'll check out that knee thing. I know why they crack though. I've been to an orthopedic surgeon and had x-rays and it's just lack of cartilage. He just said with women, we lose cartilage faster than men and the as long as it doesn't hurt, to just concentrate on strengthening my leg muscles to support the knee. Sort of sounds like a catch 22 really...but I just watch my form and back off if there is any pain. There usually isn't...I just sound like a box of giant rice krispies!
One of the main reasons I DO like holding the weights is b/c it seems to help my back form. I have found with weights on shoulders/back, it hurts my lower back. I have a slight sway back, which was great for gymnastics (I could bend all over the place), but I find when I do squats with weight on my upper back, it puts pressure on my lower back and it starts to curve. I do my best to pull my pelvis in to support, but then my upper back starts to round out so it's no longer straight. Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes perfect sense and it's called anterior pelvic tilt. If you were my client I'd have you front squat because it'd keep you more upright and you could focus on good lumbar position. It'd also probably be a good choice for your knees (probably, I'm working off limited info here!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTAKPsi
Thanks for the advice. I hear what you're saying. We do have Olympic barbells. Do you mean, by cleaning up the bar, jerking and flipping the bar up to rest on the front of the shoulder? If so, when squatting, will I fall forward?
Yes. I doubt I would have used those exact words to describe a clean, lol, but yes, you've got the right idea. No, you won't fall forward once you learn how to do a front squat.
Quote:
just concentrate on strengthening my leg muscles to support the knee.
Then Bulletproof Knees really is exactly what you need. It's all about how to progressively strengthen the appropriate musculature. I hope you'll check it out.
Disclosure: I've been recommending so many of Mike's products that I thought it'd be appropriate to clarify that I do not have any financial interest in them. I a big fan of Mike's and I've done some work for him, but I do not make any money when he sells a product.
lol.
That's great Lisa. HA!
I've been thinking on getting it for myself, prolly since you've been such a huge pusher.
Squats question... please help
, I don't lean forward enough). I haven't decided yet if I am going to move on to using the Olympic bar or modify with dumbbells. 
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