I Finished!

[UConnJulie]

Reading that is ... really looking forward to starting this ... looks like Alwyn created yet again something that on paper looks like nothing and in reality will squash me like a bug! I like that it gradually builds ... excited about some of the exercise combos ... they all look doable in my home gym!

Cass, the nutrition info is great ... nice to see some great common sense out there!!! I am sick of seeing women eating 900-1200 calories a day to lose weight!! I am a big advocate of balanced nutrition and minimal exposure to processed foods. It has really helped my recovery from Adrenal Fatigue.

I have a couple of questions for you ... I am allergic to whey ... can I substitute soy protein for the shakes? Or am I better off just making smoothies with plain Kefir or cottage cheese? If I substitute soy, what is the nutrient profile that the whey has that I should try to approximate?

Really looking forward to starting this on the 7th with everyone ... I might start looking at my calories this coming week (just seeing what I've been eating ... seeing what my macros and calories come out to, and how much I need to adjust). I'm happy that my weight has stabilized for the past month after steadily climbing. Whew!!! I think I'll also give a practice run with some of the exercises ... just to get into the swing of things!

[Victoria]

Originally Posted by UConnJulie

Reading that is ... really looking forward to starting this ... looks like Alwyn created yet again something that on paper looks like nothing and in reality will squash me like a bug! I like that it gradually builds ... excited about some of the exercise combos ... they all look doable in my home gym!

Cool....if they'll work in your set up, they should work in mine!

[Cassandra Forsythe]

Hey there Julie!

So glad you like the book! Lou did an excellent job putting it all together. It was such an honor to work with him.

For your question: Yes, for reasons of allergy, you can substitute the soy for the whey. They are pretty comparable in terms of nutrient profiles (see an excellent overview here), but the only difference is that most soy protein products have a lot more carbohydrates in them versus whey. Check your labels carefully. Optimum Nutrition has a 100% Soy Protein, with only 2 grams of carbohydrate that you might want to look into.

Another option to soy protein, is rice protein. Unlike soy, it does not have estrogen-like properties and has less allergenic potential. Some brands taste like dirt, so watch out how much you buy until you know you like it. The one I like is Nutribiotic Rice Protein - get Vanilla or Chocolate, because plain is horrible. Despite coming from rice, it doesn't have many carbs (only 2 per serving, like whey)- so it's very similar in that respect. It also has a complete amino acid profile and a high amino acid score. Their site tells you more. Check it out.

Happy Holidays!

Originally Posted by UConnJulie

Cass, the nutrition info is great ... nice to see some great common sense out there!!! I am sick of seeing women eating 900-1200 calories a day to lose weight!! I am a big advocate of balanced nutrition and minimal exposure to processed foods. It has really helped my recovery from Adrenal Fatigue.

I have a couple of questions for you ... I am allergic to whey ... can I substitute soy protein for the shakes? Or am I better off just making smoothies with plain Kefir or cottage cheese? If I substitute soy, what is the nutrient profile that the whey has that I should try to approximate?

[UConnJulie]

Thanks Cass!

I actually have a can each of chocolate and vanilla Nutribiotic Rice protein ... they taste like sand to me, but I'll give them a go again. I usually get Vanilla Spirutein with no added sugar ... the carbs are low, maybe like 5 g ...

My estrogen has actually been low, so I don't worry too much about soy from that standpoint.

[Lost Dog]

Originally Posted by UConnJulie

...

My estrogen has actually been low, so I don't worry too much about soy from that standpoint.

I say no for you. It's estrogen like properties, not estrogen. Like synthetic hormones vs. bioidentical hormones. Our bodies respond differently by up and down-regulating other hormones in response.

What will estrogen plus something that's estrogen-like do your hormone production. It may slow actual estrogen production, yet not trigger the proper hormonal responses that should be taking place to balance things out.

Did someone say rice?

[Cassandra Forsythe]

Good points Roland,

However, the soy controvery is still totally up in the air. I did read "The Whole Soy Story" and went anti-soy for quite some time. But now, after reading other research and speaking with certain reputable physicians (there's very few), soy in moderate quantities may not have negative effects in women, and may actually help reduce PMS symptoms and other undesirable menstrual responses (because the soy estrogen-like compounds may compete with the PMS-stimulating effects of estrogen and reduce the symptoms). It's not the same case for men though, as unlike women, their normal estrogen and estrogen-like compound tolerance range is much smaller. For women, we can handle a bit more of a flux without too much change in our health and physique (that's what our menstrual phases do).

But, I'm not an advocate of soy as your only source of protein in a protein shake. That's why I mentioned Rice; yes, it tastes a bit like dirt, but in a shake, you can add berries and other ingredients that you like to cover the taste. There are also other brands out there, that maybe taste different - here in Canada (where I am right now), I've just seen three new brands and am considering giving them a shot. I too have issues with whey, and can only tolerate a small amount - i.e once a day, no more.

As far as not having any estrogen show up on blood tests.... remember that the blood tests we can get from our doctors only measure ONE TYPE of estrogen (like Roland said). They don't consider all the other forms, which can have the same effects as the one form that is measured. For example, I was amenorrheic for 5 years and during that time my estrogen (measured by the doctor) and LH with FSH were almost non-existant. Recently though for the past year, I've been completely regular and that was without any exogenous estrogen (i.e., BC). On subsequent blood tests I figured these female hormones would have been right back in the normal range, but to my surprise, they were EXACTELY the same. Estrogen was still below the sensitivity of the analysis, and the other hormones were still in the range of a post-menopausal woman. SO.... I spoke with professors in my Univ plus other female professors that specialize in female hormone measurement, and they told me that estrogen is still low because it's the other forms of estrogen that are elevated compared to earlier - not the one that can be measured by your doctor.

So, even if you eat estrogen-like compound containing foods, such as soy and flax, you may not see a change in that one form of estrogen, but, there are elevations in those food forms of E that are not easily measured.

All in all, if you want to avoid the effects of high estrogen family compounds, such as increased body fat, thinner skin, etc, you would want to minimize the use of the foods containing these, which would be soy (and flax). Small amounts a few times a week, shouldn't be too much of a problem for a woman, but larger doses likely will be --- that's why you should consider other sources; there's also hemp protein....

Thank you for bringing this up Roland.

One more thing Juile, I think we've spoken about this before, but you say that you can't eat whey, but you can eat cottage cheese and kefir, which contain whey. What's the explaination for that? Thank you!

Originally Posted by Lost Dog

I say no for you. It's estrogen like properties, not estrogen. Like synthetic hormones vs. bioidentical hormones. Our bodies respond differently by up and down-regulating other hormones in response.

What will estrogen plus something that's estrogen-like do your hormone production. It may slow actual estrogen production, yet not trigger the proper hormonal responses that should be taking place to balance things out.

Did someone say rice?

[UConnJulie]

Interesting points ... honestly I only have soy shakes maybe on average once a week ... I just prefer whole foods. And often I'll make my shakes with cottage cheese.

The whey thing is actually a guess. I had a really severe case of mono when I was 15 and afterward developed many allergies, and fairly severe asthma. One thing I became allergic to was milk. When I would drink it, my throat would become covered with hives and it would be hard to breathe and/or swallow. (I also developed noticable allergies to cats, dust, and mold at this time.) So I avoided milk. Cheese never did the same thing, nor did yogurt.

My freshman year in college, I had bronchitis twice by Thanksgiving, so my mother sent me to an allergist (I lived in the Jungle - I think they call it North Campus now - and it was DUSTY!). He did skin scratch testing and found that I was highly allergic to beef ... like off the scale allergic. Other things too like cats, dogs, dust, mold, wheat, grass pollen, tree pollen, etc etc etc. So no more beef.

About 15 years ago I was doing a lot of weight lifting and the "trainer" at the gym told me I should try protein shakes (I was and had been a vegetarian for the previous 5+ years). I got some chocolate whey and made a shake, and started with the same itchy swelling in my throat. I averted a trip to the ER by using my steroid inhaler (for asthma) and a Neti pot and some benadryl. So in my mind, I linked the "milk" allergy (which interestingly on scratch testing was only "mild") with whey.

I can have it in small quantities ... but some things will trigger it ... some crackers, some ice cream brands ... and I just avoid it. A whey shake would send me to the ER.

I didn't think I could have Kefir (Galya introduced me to it, I had never heard of it) ... but my daughters love it, so I tasted it one day a few weeks ago (after rationalizing that yogurt doesn't affect me) and found that it doesn't bother me. I still limit it ... I have maybe 4 oz every other day ... but have had zero symptoms from it.

I didn't think cottage cheese has whey since regular cheese doesn't (the whey is separated out from the curds, which are what are turned into cheese).

Really this is a non-issue for me ... I don't douse myself in soy daily. I might have edamame once a month ... and a scoop of Spirutein once a week or three times in two weeks ... and a 32 oz container of soymilk will last me 2 weeks. I use wheat-free soy sauce maybe 1-2 Tbs per week in marinades and such. I occasionally will have some brown rice miso, usually in a soup. I also have tofu maybe once a month. I only brought it up because there was such an emphasis on whey in the book with no mention of options for those who cannot have whey.

I did ask my doctor (the one treating me with bioidentical hormones for adrenal fatigue and my other hormone imbalances) if soy was a no-no and she said not to worry about it since I wasn't eating soy products 5 meals per day.

Good food for thought though.

[Cassandra Forsythe]

Hey Julie

Your guess on whey sounds pretty good... if your throat swells up, stay away! But, since those other items do not, it may be because they have a lower whey content (i.e. some cc is whey-free, while others contain a small amount, but not as much as milk or, obviously, whey powder).

Yes, there is an emphasis on whey because at the time of writing the book I was totally anti-soy, but didn't consider the fact that a) some women are vegetarian and only eat soy products, and b) some women can not consume whey. In retrospect, there should have been a side bar to explain the alternatives. But, at least there's this forum!

[laurawd]

"As far as not having any estrogen show up on blood tests.... remember that the blood tests we can get from our doctors only measure ONE TYPE of estrogen (like Roland said). They don't consider all the other forms, which can have the same effects as the one form that is measured. For example, I was amenorrheic for 5 years and during that time my estrogen (measured by the doctor) and LH with FSH were almost non-existant. Recently though for the past year, I've been completely regular and that was without any exogenous estrogen (i.e., BC). On subsequent blood tests I figured these female hormones would have been right back in the normal range, but to my surprise, they were EXACTELY the same. Estrogen was still below the sensitivity of the analysis, and the other hormones were still in the range of a post-menopausal woman. SO.... I spoke with professors in my Univ plus other female professors that specialize in female hormone measurement, and they told me that estrogen is still low because it's the other forms of estrogen that are elevated compared to earlier - not the one that can be measured by your doctor."

Hi Cassandra,

What you write above implies that estrogen could be high even if it's not "high" on blood tests. (I.e., one might have the dreaded estrogen dominance thing going on but not be able to detect it w/ blood tests). How would you know if you're estrogen dominant, in this case?

(IT is possible to test ALL estrogens via a 24-hour urine sample, but it's a bit of a nuisance.)

Oh - and on the protein powder thing: hemp protein powder and pea protein powder - both of which are in Vega - are very good alternative sources. Doesn't just have to be soy.

[Cassandra Forsythe]

Originally Posted by laurawd

Hi Cassandra,

What you write above implies that estrogen could be high even if it's not "high" on blood tests. (I.e., one might have the dreaded estrogen dominance thing going on but not be able to detect it w/ blood tests). How would you know if you're estrogen dominant, in this case?

(IT is possible to test ALL estrogens via a 24-hour urine sample, but it's a bit of a nuisance.)

Oh - and on the protein powder thing: hemp protein powder and pea protein powder - both of which are in Vega - are very good alternative sources. Doesn't just have to be soy.

Yes Laura, that's correct. Honestly though, you can't really determine if you're estrogen dominant just with a urine test or blood test. The reason being is that it's not just the E in the circulation, but the E that your body takes up which then has the effects. You can tell if you're E dominant by looking at your body shape - are you womanly (i.e., good size breast, hips and a bit of fat around your baby holding area?) & do you have a "normal" amount of body fat for a woman (i.e., 20 to 30% {which IMHO is too high, but is really normal for most women})?

If you feel that you are like this... which is "normal" for our gender.... and want to change it, you can remove all exogenous E sources from your diet (i.e. flax, soy, et al), and consume foods that bind E, like broccoli and other cruciferous veggies. This may help to reduce E and it's effects in your body.

The other issue with monitoring E is that it cycle so much through the month, so even in women's research studies, they monitor E in women with urine tests for about 2 months. That's just not possible unless you're in research.

[LisaS]

I just finished a first read through too. Excellent book - good information for the masses and what look to be quite challenging programs.