I am new to NROL and this site. I am just finishing the Break-In Programs and heading into Fat-loss I. It is my goal to lose weight, "tone-up" (I know Lou does not like expression) and improve in my long-distance cycling rides. I have cut back on my riding recently for a number of reasons, mostly burn-out and frustration. I seemed to be getting slower in my rides, probably due to extra poundage (mine) and general burnout after fours years of 4000+ miles of riding. Not seeing improvements in my speed or climbing ability made me realize I needed to drop a few pounds and get stronger.
Now for the newbie question: Is bike riding, especially long distances, say about 50 miles on a weekend day, counter productive to any gains made fom lifting the NROL or will the long-steady distance cardio aid in weight loss? Should I stick with high intensity cardio workout blasts a few times a week as described in the "Metabolic Overdrive" section of the "Aerobic Myth" chapter. How about short distance rides of an hour on days between lifting - good, bad, indifferent....?
My stats are male, age 50, 5'3", 165#s. My goal is to drop to about 150#s and see if my bike riding improves at that weight. Being that summer is nearing its end, I am goaling next spring as my return to major distance rides.
Any thoughts and advice from your experiences would be appreciated, especially from those of you who have done the NROL plans and are cardio active.
...
Now for the newbie question: Is bike riding, especially long distances, say about 50 miles on a weekend day, counter productive to any gains made fom lifting the NROL or will the long-steady distance cardio aid in weight loss? Should I stick with high intensity cardio workout blasts a few times a week as described in the "Metabolic Overdrive" section of the "Aerobic Myth" chapter. How about short distance rides of an hour on days between lifting - good, bad, indifferent....?
My stats are male, age 50, 5'3", 165#s. My goal is to drop to about 150#s and see if my bike riding improves at that weight. Being that summer is nearing its end, I am goaling next spring as my return to major distance rides.
You and I are in a reasonably similar place. I'm also on the stocky side of short (BMI ~27 to your 29) and much involved with other activities (in my case martial arts) that I take seriously. I am also looking to NROL to cut weight (I'd like to be about 155-165lbs at 5'8", with the 165 being "allowed" if I'm at a high strength to weight ratio, and the 155 better if I'm not).
Certainly, if you do the strength training and also hit intevals on the bike like you were being chased by lecherous werewolves with guns you'll likely work both your speed and get the strength gains you want.
For the longer distance work, I have no idea. Certainly it'll help with caloric deficit, but for the same reason I have to hope my martial arts training goes with weightlifting more like peanut butter and chocolate rather than housecats and water, I hope that the endurance work just adds to the fun of your training, rather than subtract from it.
Of course, that's one of the reasons I logged on here and post a training log (which is currently being studiously ignored)...to participate in a forum with like minded and knowledgeable individuals.
Welcome, and good luck.
Doug
(p.s. I used to log about 125miles per week when I was in grad school; my other training has eclipsed my biking, but I do miss it. Actually met my wife while I was working at RRB Bicycles in Evanston, IL. She came in to buy a bike, and got the salesman for free!)
(p.p.s. She claims she's still paying for the salesman.)
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Sadly, if you're doing serious endurance work, it is probably going to hinder the strength and muscle gains you can make (other than maybe your legs because of the riding). NROL mentions this and says that if you're doing both endurance and anaerobic work in signficant amounts, your body will be inclined to choose the former. There's really no explanation why if I remember correctly, but I know it says that. Schuler says that the best way to combat this is to either do HIIT instead, like you suggested, or to do the endurance work on your lifting days. Again, not much explanation as to why as far as I can remember, but refer back to the book to check me on that.
It will certainly help you burn calories and probably lose weight, but it is going to be hard to maintain muscle mass, and very hard to gain significant strength other than in your legs.
Thanx to DouglasCole and Life is Good for their replies and thoughts on the subject of cardio vs. weight training. Further reading on this site and others indicate that this is often a debatable subject, especially the counter-effects that these trainings have on each other.
The reading of these posts has not answered a lot for me, but did make me come to some conclussions as they apply to me: My main goal at the moment is weight-loss, with any benifits to my bike riding as an added benifit. Having decided to try the NROL Fat Loss programs, I realize weight-training will be priority #1. I also realize that the HIIT cardio will be an almost daily part of my routines to help with the weight loss. As I have other important priorities - such as family, work and life in general -the shorter HIIT will work to my benifit as well. Today I did a 30 minute workout on the spinbike getting my heart rate over 80% for the last three blasts. Short but sweet!
In a few weeks/months, after I achieve my weight loss goals, I can then use the new me to attack my bike riding.
I am looking forward to moving on with the BF program and sharing the ups and downs on this forum. There is a world of info, opinion, and experience on this site and I look forward being a part of it.
The Fat Loss programs do not cause you to lose fat especially in your case since you are not an obese sedentary person. Only eating at a deficit will cause you to lose fat.
Eating at a deficit while doing a metabolic circuit training routine like the Fat Loss programs can potentially cause muscle loss, although in your case it is unlikely to be much because you do not sound like you are heavily muscled.
The good news is that doing a metabolic circuit training like the Fat Loss program will certainly help your muscle endurance fitness.
Finally, working on your cycling endurance while working out with NROL will most assuredly effect your muscles ability to recover.
I am not an expert on this topic *FAR FROM IT* but I suspect you would be best served by breaking your goals up into segments and working on them one or two segments at a time. All three is likely to cause overtraining, failure of one or more goals, or worse yet, injury.
Your three goals are:
Losing weight
Building muscle
Maintaining cyling endurance
I would suggest losing weight while maintaining your endurance, then so a strength training program focused on the muscles a cyclist needs to succeed.
I see no point in building up your back muscles, or your shoulder muscles. This seems like it would just slow you down.
More than likely you would do better on the hardcore biking forums than here.
Eating at a deficit while doing a metabolic circuit training routine like the Fat Loss programs can potentially cause muscle loss, although in your case it is unlikely to be much because you do not sound like you are heavily muscled.
This is not true. HIIT promotes muscle gain if you do it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry Elf
Thanx to DouglasCole and Life is Good for I also realize that the HIIT cardio will be an almost daily part of my routines to help with the weight loss.
Bad move. I said that HIIT does promote muscle gain, but if you're doing it that much, it's going to do the opposite. Don't do it more than 2-3x per week.
While on a caloric deficit HIIT promotes muscle gain huh?
Please tell me, how does one "do it right" so this happens?
I didn't say while in a deficit. I'm just pointing out the facts. You're not going to gain muscle in a deficit. I get that. I'm just saying that in that situation, it will probably help the cause rather than hurt it as you're claiming - again, assuming you do it correctly.
I have 30 years of experience balancing endurance training and strength training, but only a few weeks of bastardized NROL workouts. So accept this as coming from a guy who's done 300k and longer bike rides but has little experience with NROL. I'll agree with Lou that doing both means excelling at neither which is fine if your goal is overall fitness and strength, but does require accepting the limitations if you don't want to be frustrated with the results you get from either training.
Getting faster on the bike requires very disciplined work. You have to ride hard and climb hard a couple of days a week and take it really easy on the rest of your rides. Most people ride too fast on their slow days, too slow on their fast days, and make very little progress. A woman posting on a cycling board told of riding with the male, pro rideres on their recovery rides but not being able to keep up with amateur racers on their recovery rides.
It also occurred to me that "Fat Loss" - NROL's words and "Weight Loss", your words may not be the same thing. It's safe to assume that Lou Schuler knows both phrases and deliberately picked one over the other. Climbing well is all about weight and weight loss is all about eating. It's no coincidence that LA lost a lot of weight when he made the jump from being a one-day racer to being a tour racer. All of this is to basically say that losing weight and riding more are the keys to being fast on the bike. Strength training is worth doing for it's own sake, can help your riding some, but as Eddy Merckx said "Ride lots".
You and I are in a reasonably similar place. I'm also on the stocky side of short (BMI ~27 to your 29) and much involved with other activities (in my case martial arts) that I take seriously. I am also looking to NROL to cut weight (I'd like to be about 155-165lbs at 5'8", with the 165 being "allowed" if I'm at a high strength to weight ratio, and the 155 better if I'm not).
Certainly, if you do the strength training and also hit intevals on the bike like you were being chased by lecherous werewolves with guns you'll likely work both your speed and get the strength gains you want.
For the longer distance work, I have no idea. Certainly it'll help with caloric deficit, but for the same reason I have to hope my martial arts training goes with weightlifting more like peanut butter and chocolate rather than housecats and water, I hope that the endurance work just adds to the fun of your training, rather than subtract from it.
Of course, that's one of the reasons I logged on here and post a training log (which is currently being studiously ignored)...to participate in a forum with like minded and knowledgeable individuals.
Welcome, and good luck.
Doug
(p.s. I used to log about 125miles per week when I was in grad school; my other training has eclipsed my biking, but I do miss it. Actually met my wife while I was working at RRB Bicycles in Evanston, IL. She came in to buy a bike, and got the salesman for free!)
(p.p.s. She claims she's still paying for the salesman.)
Aannnd with this post, I'm off to check out your log. Your writing entertains me
I didn't say while in a deficit. I'm just pointing out the facts. You're not going to gain muscle in a deficit. I get that. I'm just saying that in that situation, it will probably help the cause rather than hurt it as you're claiming - again, assuming you do it correctly.
You quoted me, so I assumed you were talking to me and not just making a random statement. In my quote, the word deficit is right out there at the front.
Getting back to the goals of the OP, I don't think any of the workouts in NROL are best suited to his goals. Perhaps the OP doesn't care about maximizing his time but it appears in HIS CASE it is the wrong tool for the job.
My guess is he thinks he will lose weight from doing the FL routines and the simple fact is because he is not an obsese sedentary person he will need to eat at a deficit to lose weight.
My guess is based on the posts in this thread that he thinks he can lose weight, gain muscle, and maintain his endurance all at the same time he just has to be "doing it right". Assuming he is not using steroids this is not going to happen. Therefore he should take my advice and break his goals up and attack them one or two at a time.
I have 30 years of experience balancing endurance training and strength training, but only a few weeks of bastardized NROL workouts. So accept this as coming from a guy who's done 300k and longer bike rides but has little experience with NROL. I'll agree with Lou that doing both means excelling at neither which is fine if your goal is overall fitness and strength, but does require accepting the limitations if you don't want to be frustrated with the results you get from either training.
Getting faster on the bike requires very disciplined work. You have to ride hard and climb hard a couple of days a week and take it really easy on the rest of your rides. Most people ride too fast on their slow days, too slow on their fast days, and make very little progress. A woman posting on a cycling board told of riding with the male, pro rideres on their recovery rides but not being able to keep up with amateur racers on their recovery rides.
It also occurred to me that "Fat Loss" - NROL's words and "Weight Loss", your words may not be the same thing. It's safe to assume that Lou Schuler knows both phrases and deliberately picked one over the other. Climbing well is all about weight and weight loss is all about eating. It's no coincidence that LA lost a lot of weight when he made the jump from being a one-day racer to being a tour racer. All of this is to basically say that losing weight and riding more are the keys to being fast on the bike. Strength training is worth doing for it's own sake, can help your riding some, but as Eddy Merckx said "Ride lots".
Right, you do need to ride a lot. But do you think LA doesn't train his legs other than riding a bike? I can't back that up with any research, but I think it's safe to assume not.
Fat loss and weight loss are very different, and that is exactly why Schuler chose those words. However, weight loss is almost never as important as fat loss. In your case, yeah, weight loss might be a necessity, but do you think that you're going to get more efficient at climbing if you lose muscle? Fat loss is key - and that is also all about diet.
Right, you do need to ride a lot. But do you think LA doesn't train his legs other than riding a bike? I can't back that up with any research, but I think it's safe to assume not.
Fat loss and weight loss are very different, and that is exactly why Schuler chose those words. However, weight loss is almost never as important as fat loss. In your case, yeah, weight loss might be a necessity, but do you think that you're going to get more efficient at climbing if you lose muscle? Fat loss is key - and that is also all about diet.
I don't know for certain what LA does for training, but will agree that he likely does some. That being said it's probably a very low percentage of his total training time.
Strengthening my legs in the gym helped a little bit on the bike when I did it, but nowhere near as much as interval training, hill climbing, tempo rides and high cadence spinning. The movement is quite specific and gears and hills allow cyclists to get resistance training on the bike.
My experience has been that upper body weight in any form is dead weight riding a bike up a hill. Work equals weight times distance and the lighter I've been, the better I climb. I climbed much better at 170# with a 32 inch waist than I did at 185# with a 32 inch waist. Cycling is much like running in that sprinters do a lot of weight training, marathoners do very little. On running boards I've argued that marathoners will do more when people create programs specifically for marathon training and some runners who use it win big races. If somebody already has, I'd like to read about it and give it a try.
I don't know for certain what LA does for training, but will agree that he likely does some. That being said it's probably a very low percentage of his total training time.
Strengthening my legs in the gym helped a little bit on the bike when I did it, but nowhere near as much as interval training, hill climbing, tempo rides and high cadence spinning. The movement is quite specific and gears and hills allow cyclists to get resistance training on the bike.
My experience has been that upper body weight in any form is dead weight riding a bike up a hill. Work equals weight times distance and the lighter I've been, the better I climb. I climbed much better at 170# with a 32 inch waist than I did at 185# with a 32 inch waist. Cycling is much like running in that sprinters do a lot of weight training, marathoners do very little. On running boards I've argued that marathoners will do more when people create programs specifically for marathon training and some runners who use it win big races. If somebody already has, I'd like to read about it and give it a try.
Right, I understand, and you're right, if your main focus is climbing, upper body weight is basically dead weight for you. I once heard LA say something to the effect of upper body strength being insignificant. Realize that if you really want to maximize your output in terms of cycling, climbing though, that is a VERY, VERY different goal than being muscular or "toning." Those guys are just flat out skinny (except for their legs of course)
That's what I was hoping to point out to the OP. That, if the goal is improving one's cycling, most of the effort should go to weight loss and riding. To me, "toning up" and gaining strength are worth the effort for their own sake, but not necessarily to improve my riding.
so i'm in my second week of doing NROL and i hurt my back while doing a deadlift. Probably because i wanted to hurry to go to class. The Break-in program is for four weeks, but would it be wise to take a week or two off until my back gets better?
so i'm in my second week of doing NROL and i hurt my back while doing a deadlift. Probably because i wanted to hurry to go to class. The Break-in program is for four weeks, but would it be wise to take a week or two off until my back gets better?
Depends on exactly what you did to your back. If your back is injured then you should rest and possibly go see a doctor. Certainly you should not be doing any lifting because you're a novice and have no idea what you're doing. A back is not something to mess around with.
If your back is sore then keep going after a couple of days rest.
The Fat Loss programs do not cause you to lose fat especially in your case since you are not an obese sedentary person. Only eating at a deficit will cause you to lose fat.
NACHO, not to belabor a point - I'm just looking for clarification. Are you saying that the Fat Loss programs don't cause fat loss unless you are eating at a deficit?
NACHO, not to belabor a point - I'm just looking for clarification. Are you saying that the Fat Loss programs don't cause fat loss unless you are eating at a deficit?
Yes. No matter what kind of workout you're doing the laws of thermodynamics remain in place. I realize the book makes it seem like these programs have magical properties which cause the fat to melt off your body but the fact is if you want to lose fat you have to eat at a deficit.*
Having said that the FL programs do look like they would burn a lot of calories but they also might just make you very hungry.
*The exception is if you're an overweight novice in which case you can lose fat and build muscle at the same time.
Yes. No matter what kind of workout you're doing the laws of thermodynamics remain in place. I realize the book makes it seem like these programs have magical properties which cause the fat to melt off your body but the fact is if you want to lose fat you have to eat at a deficit.*
Having said that the FL programs do look like they would burn a lot of calories but they also might just make you very hungry.
*The exception is if you're an overweight novice in which case you can lose fat and build muscle at the same time.
Assuming you're right, the book is rather misleading on this issue.
NACHO, I haven't had a chance to read all your links, but from what I've seen initially, I'm totally with you! Oh man! Thank you for pointing out the "elephants in the room" (e.g. eating more speeds up your metabolism, but does it speed it up enough to overcome the fact that you're eating so much more?). I've actually brought up some of your exact points to my friends as problems with what I've read.
NACHO, I haven't had a chance to read all your links, but from what I've seen initially, I'm totally with you! Oh man! Thank you for pointing out the "elephants in the room" (e.g. eating more speeds up your metabolism, but does it speed it up enough to overcome the fact that you're eating so much more?). I've actually brought up some of your exact points to my friends as problems with what I've read.
Yea, it is pretty obvious when you think about it. "Say goodbye to your fat" I remember thinking the fat was simple going to shed off my body from doing FLI due to cortisol.
In my case, I was in a hurry to lose weight so I stopped doing NROL when I realized it was going to take me longer to reach my goals following their program than via other more extreme dieting methods.
Having said that I am most likely about to start the break in program again at the end of the week, and then go to Hypertrophy I and Strength I.
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