Since there are 10 different programs in NROL for different purposes, how is it that they are all the opposite of what Rip recommends?
Or are you only picking one that is quite different and centering in on that one? Like why one of his fat loss programs marketed as one of 10 programs in a book for intermediate lifters isn't the same as Rip's beginner/novice strength program in a book about program design.
Alwyn has a blog - why don't you ask him why his programs in NROL aren't the same as Rip's. Or, you could find one of the many sites where Rip posts and ask him why his program is different from all of Alwyn's in NROL.
Or, you could read PP in more detail and see what Rip says about the purposes of different set/rep schemes and see why he uses the ones he does and perhaps try to reason out why Alwyn's different programs as presented in the book NROL are built they way that they are.
Since there are 10 different programs in NROL for different purposes, how is it that they are all the opposite of what Rip recommends?
Or are you only picking one that is quite different and centering in on that one? Like why one of his fat loss programs marketed as one of 10 programs in a book for intermediate lifters isn't the same as Rip's beginner/novice strength program in a book about program design.
Alwyn has a blog - why don't you ask him why his programs in NROL aren't the same as Rip's. Or, you could find one of the many sites where Rip posts and ask him why his program is different from all of Alwyn's in NROL.
Or, you could read PP in more detail and see what Rip says about the purposes of different set/rep schemes and see why he uses the ones he does and perhaps try to reason out why Alwyn's different programs as presented in the book NROL are built they way that they are.
If you are really interested in Alwyn's reasons behind his fat loss program recommendations, you really should seek out his articles and read his blog to gain more of an understanding of his thought processes.
apologies if the previous response sounded snarky.
At this stage in the game, you're prolly not gonna see drastic differences in your responses to different programming, other than eating and energy levels. As I've said before, worrying about intensity this early can be important if you're the type who will be so wiped that you will defeat the diet with the lack of activity elsewhere… but overall… in your case you're just needing a CAR… and pretty much any car will do. The level of tweaking and differences you're talking about are for much later in the game.
Not to say don't learn all you can… but we're talking small differences overall. Means a lot to someone at 10% bodyfat trying to keep all the muscle he's gotten on his last bulk… not so much to a guy who is just starting out and will maintain (or even make some gains) on pretty much any program.
So go ahead and read and learn about programming and the method to the madness of these things, but realize that as it applies to you right now… most of this is arguing about whether to get the car that has theoretically 24mpg or 25mpg.
I know some of you think I am a Troll which is understandable. I'm not, just a fat noob trying to maximize his results. So ...
I got Starting Strength and Practical Programming and jumped straight to the novice section of Practical Programming.
To my amazement unless I am misunderstanding it recommends sets of 5 reps.
How could it be so opposite of NROL?
I understand that either will bring me gains but one must be better than the other or not? Is there some other reasonable way to explain this?
My guess is, as I have not read those books thoroughly enough to comment on content, that those books are strength oriented books/programs. That is just based off of title's, Amazon book descriptions and other experiences with similar products.
NROL has a strength portion as well. The difference is that NROL suggests for newer lifters to start with a fat burning program. This is based on a safe assumption that the majority at this point will be carrying extra fat. It is widely accepted by almost every camp out there that lower rep is better for strength purposes, mid rep is for hypertrophy and high rep is for endurance/fat burn. This does not mean that if I start out with a strength program, being overweight myself, that I will not burn fat on that strength program. As a newbie, I will most likely get stronger and burn some fat.
I was a strength/powerlifter back in high school and really haven't lifted in over a decade. I never lifted anything beyond 8 reps. When I started going to a gym a few months back I was in miserable shape. I literally went through warm-ups and some core drills with a personal trainer. We went over to start on some machines (not a great start for my trainer but that is another subject) and I start with an incline press. After the second set, fifteen minutes into the workout, I hit the wall and spent the next five minutes hugging a trash can.
I had a few more sessions with the trainer and worked up to almost an hour before I hit my 'wall'. We would have to take mercy breaks so I wouldn't pass out or hurl. Due to some personal financial issues, I cannot afford a trainer on a normal basis. I was directionless at that point and knew I wanted off of the dreaded machines and to return to what I was familiar with. I purchased a few books and NROL was the one most inline with my own personal philosophy.
Philosophy, it’s a great word. That is what this is all about. There are many different ways to skin a cat (what a graphic saying that is). I could have picked from a number of different programs but I chose this one. Why? Because this was the most likely program, for me personally, that I would stick with and apply over an extended period of time. I implore you find that special program for yourself and leave all of these nice folks alone. I suspect your motives have a foul intent and you are just bucking this particular philosophy for self vindication. You remind me of a guy on a local forum who goes into the ‘off-topic’ and pokes at all the Christian philosophies because he is an atheist. The posts are never productive and are never going to go anywhere. The posts only purposes are to create strife with the people who are different from himself.
P.S. You are not a troll that is a common mistake. If your intent is what I have theorized then you are an internet gadfly.
I implore you find that special program for yourself and leave all of these nice folks alone. I suspect your motives have a foul intent and you are just bucking this particular philosophy for self vindication. You remind me of a guy on a local forum who goes into the ‘off-topic’ and pokes at all the Christian philosophies because he is an atheist. The posts are never productive and are never going to go anywhere. The posts only purposes are to create strife with the people who are different from himself.
P.S. You are not a troll that is a common mistake. If your intent is what I have theorized then you are an internet gadfly.
Wow! Let me guess ... you suspect we did not actually go to the moon and the government planned 9/11 ?
My MO is typical of someone new to a forum. Ask a lot of questions, learn about the topics being discussed, and then as time goes on ask less questions and provide more answers. I apologize if my questions make people uncomfortable.
Your regilion analogy is perfect. Thank you for bringing it up. What use is a Christian if his belief is so unrooted a few questions can topple their beliefs? If your beliefs are founded on knowlege and rooted in sound principles of logic you can not only answer atheist questions but potentially save them. In otherwords, if your beliefs are never tested how good are they? In fact the Bible is filled with stories of believers being tested.
As for my posts, check out my butter vs margarine topic. Anyone who reads that will find out that butter is still better for you than these new and improved margarines and why. I dug around the internet but had trouble dispelling the claims of margarine manufacturers. Posted up the question and two posters here unlocked the reality for me. Now everyone who read that post is a little smarter. Should someone ask them why they are buying butter in a grocery store they can tell them that butter is healthier and WHY. In your world apparently it would be better for them just to say ... "My philosphy is butter is better. I read it in a book and because I liked the title of the book I'm eating butter"
My philosphy is to know the WHYs. I used to drive my mother crazy. Why. Why. Why. You want to just believe than go ahead. I want to know WHY. If it ruffles a few feathers tough shit. Now go stick your head back in the dirt where it belongs.
If you are really interested in Alwyn's reasons behind his fat loss program recommendations, you really should seek out his articles and read his blog to gain more of an understanding of his thought processes.
apologies if the previous response sounded snarky.
No apology necessary I've read enough of your posts to know you're only trying to help. I did read his blog for over an hour last night. It would seem the answer lies at least partially in the philosophies of the two.
Ripptoe's book is only concerned with building strength and size. He is writing for the professional who would be monitoring the progress of an athlete. So he does not build in any rest time (like weeks off) or specific plans just general ideas.
Cosgroves NROL being aimed primarily at beginners building fitness first, with plenty of safety built in. Strength and size come secondary to the first two goals. NROL is building more functional stregth (endurance) at the expense of maximum muscle growth. Lot of assumptions on my part here but his philosophy seems rooted more in being in shape than body building per say.
Now I have to decide if I'm wanting to build maximum muscle or maximum fitness. I'm leaning towards NROL because I think the metabolic circuit training will help me towards my other goal of gettng back into basketball.
My philosphy is to know the WHYs. I used to drive my mother crazy. Why. Why. Why. You want to just believe than go ahead. I want to know WHY. If it ruffles a few feathers tough shit. Now go stick your head back in the dirt where it belongs.
You could do that and have people be more patient with you if you weren't saying shit like this to people. You're not ruffling feathers because you're asking questions. You're ruffling feathers because you're making borderline (and sometimes not so borderline) personally attacking comments to people that might actually be trying to help some.
Some of us try really fucking hard to not just fly off and be mean to people acting douchy figuring there's just frustration, or that they're acting out a bit in response to others, or maybe they don't even realize they're acting badly toward people. But there comes a point where it's pretty much just apparent that someone has a large bug up his butt and doesn't give a flying fuck that he's just being rude when it's completely unnecessary. And THAT would be why you're labeled by some as a troll, not cuz you ask "WHY?".
You could do that and have people be more patient with you if you weren't saying shit like this to people. You're not ruffling feathers because you're asking questions. You're ruffling feathers because you're making borderline (and sometimes not so borderline) personally attacking comments to people that might actually be trying to help some.
Some of us try really fucking hard to not just fly off and be mean to people acting douchy figuring there's just frustration, or that they're acting out a bit in response to others, or maybe they don't even realize they're acting badly toward people. But there comes a point where it's pretty much just apparent that someone has a large bug up his butt and doesn't give a flying fuck that he's just being rude when it's completely unnecessary. And THAT would be why you're labeled by some as a troll, not cuz you ask "WHY?".
I'm interested in you showing me (aside from my "stick your head in the ground" comment) where I have been rude because certainly that is not my intention.
In fact I've had plenty of reason to fire back and people who have said some very unpleasant things about me and I have said nothing.
I did attack Stogey but it wasn't nearly as bad as what he did to me. He said I was worse than a troll.
Cosgroves NROL being aimed primarily at beginners building fitness first, with plenty of safety built in. Strength and size come secondary to the first two goals. NROL is building more functional stregth (endurance) at the expense of maximum muscle growth. Lot of assumptions on my part here but his philosophy seems rooted more in being in shape than body building per say.
I meant to reply before this thread got out of hand but I didn't get round to it. Just my .02 cents.
The three NROL phases (fatloss, strengh and hypertrophy) are so different that it's hard to bunch them together and compare them to something else. If you want to compare, compare NROL's strength workouts to Starting Strength. It ain't called Starting Weightloss
But yes, NROL is a very whole program with a lot of unlilateral work and other mobility things brought in. Starting strength (which I don't know very well) seem more of a "Let's see how far you can get with the main lifts, and if something comes up, we'll deal with it when it does". NROL assumes you are a child of our time with all the functional issues that this entails, and takes them into account.
You don't need to do the weightloss programs to lose weight either, you can do it on the strength programs just as well as long as you cals are in order.
My two cents: it's a lot easier to compare plans and weigh their advantages / disadvantages in the race toward theoretical perfection... than it is to get in the weight room and train hard.
It's easier to look for the reasons why one approach is tragically flawed... than it is to get in the weight room and train hard.
It's easier to contemplate theory... than to try it on our own bodies and see which practical application applies best to us.
My vote is to dive in, embrace, train hard, compare results, tweak, listen to my body.
If every single training program was the same, there would only be 1 exercise book...a so called bible of working out. The truth is that everything works and different people find different ways to get to the same goals (so they can all sell books and all be considered experts). Does it really matter why all of these programs are different yet most get you to the same place? Honestly, pick one that fits with your style (as each program has its own feel and rhythm and set up and some are suited for one type of person than an other).
Honestly, no offense Nacho, but once again, you are way over thinking things and just need to pick 1 program that you've purchased (since I've been reading these forums you've purchased at least 3 programs and looked into another by Lyle McD) and just do it. If you don't like it or doesn't mesh with your personal workout style, switch to a different program after giving it a fair shake (4 weeks or so).
I was reading a story on T-Nation today and I immediately thought of you and all of the why why whys when I read it. Advice You Don't want to Hear Part 2. Scroll to the last section.
I've quoted it for ya below Once again as I stated before, pick a program and get to it and I wish you the best of luck at obtaining your goals.
Quote:
Eric Cressey: You Know Too Much for Your Own Good
Imagine Joe Average needs an organ transplant, so he tirelessly scours the Internet to learn everything there is to know about the procedure. Finally, the day of his operation comes. He shows up at the hospital and tells his doctor that he's "really well read" and wants to do the surgery himself. Crazy, huh?
At least once a month, I meet a TMUSCLE reader who has covered all the material on this site to the point that it's practically been memorized. He has dressed up like Chad Waterbury for Halloween. He read one of TC's Atomic Dog columns as the best man's toast as his buddy's wedding. And he has slept on the sidewalk outside of Christian Thibaudeau's house in hopes of catching a glimpse of Christian as he walks outside in his tighty-whities to grab the morning paper.
The only problem is that he's fat, weak, inflexible, uncoordinated, and deconditioned. He's the guy showing up at the hospital to do his own organ transplant. He doesn't understand that there's a lot more to this. None of this knowledge translated to physique or performance gains.
Why does this happen to some folks? Well, some people just spend way too much time in Internet fantasy land to actually go out and train. They see what they read as everything they need to be successful, but in reality, it's just one piece of the puzzle.
Information can help you tremendously, but only if you're willing to work your ass off, too. So, take the experts' advice to heart, but also go beyond the Internet to find the environment that'll motivate you to bust your hump.
Find a good training program instead of spending countless hours trying to plan your own. Get a good training partner. Find a new gym. Get a little angry.
I have about 6 weeks before I start lifting and training seriously so I have time to figure out:
Are you sure 6 weeks is enough to decide which workout to do? I waited 4 months, and I'm fatter than ever, but at least I know exactly what I'm going to do whenever it is that I decide to do it. I'll probably start soon, since I've read about 5 different books and post on all the fitness message boards asking questions of the people that actually DO the exercise. It makes sense though... why waste all that energy doing exercises from a program when there might be a better program out there? Or what if I was doing it wrong? Its better to just stall a little bit and get that all figured out first, and THEN hit the gym.
All this analyzing you're doing is missing the forest through the trees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWookie
My two cents: it's a lot easier to compare plans and weigh their advantages / disadvantages in the race toward theoretical perfection... than it is to get in the weight room and train hard.
There is a saying in Organizational/Leadership Management. It goes like this, "A good solution now, is better than a perfect solution eventually."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stogey
There are many different ways to skin a cat (what a graphic saying that is).
Not really. You pretty much need a board, a nail, and some pliers. Anything else would just end up getting too gross.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygary
Are you sure 6 weeks is enough to decide which workout to do? I waited 4 months, and I'm fatter than ever, but at least I know exactly what I'm going to do whenever it is that I decide to do it. I'll probably start soon, since I've read about 5 different books and post on all the fitness message boards asking questions of the people that actually DO the exercise. It makes sense though... why waste all that energy doing exercises from a program when there might be a better program out there? Or what if I was doing it wrong? Its better to just stall a little bit and get that all figured out first, and THEN hit the gym.
I have more to add, but the pizza guy is here.
peace.
Exactly!
I understand your frustration. I'm a "why" person as well. But, sometimes you have to temper that inquisitive nature and become a "do" person. I've found that the answers to all of the "why" questions become much more clear after you've "done" something.
I have about 6 weeks before I start lifting and training seriously
...is why you are fat.
6 weeks from now you could be done with the break-in and balls deep in Fat Loss 1. Or you could be trolling message boards looking for more excuses not to exercise.
6 weeks from now you could be done with the break-in and balls deep in Fat Loss 1. Or you could be trolling message boards looking for more excuses not to exercise.
There is a whole lot of ignorance congregated in this section of the JP forums. Clearly you're trying to make yourself feel bettter at my expense. It would be a pretty good cut if it were anywhere close to accurate.
Maybe there is a reason I had six weeks to decide? Maybe you shouldn't assume everyone sitting around doing nothing just because they ask questions? If someone tells me they have six weeks to decide my first thought it why? I don't automatically assume they are suffering paralysis by analysis.
The reason I had six weeks to decide is because I was in the middle of Lyle Mcdonald's Rapid Fat Loss and have a vacation planned for the last week in July and didn't want to dive into a new routine during the two weeks between RFL and vacation.
I finished RFL July 11 and have been doing NROL break in protocol until I go on vacation next week. When I get back I've decided to do "Starting Strength" which I plan to follow for 2-4 months depending on how it goes. This gives me 8-16 weeks to decide what to do after that.
So far since I started this fitness adventure in mid March I've gone from over 30% BF to 19% BF. Blood pressure has gone from 140/90 to 117/78. Unhealthy levels of cholesterol, and triglyceride levels have been replaced by "normal" levels. My waist has gone from 49" to 42".
As you can see I am moving towards my goals and have been since I started. Hopefully you're moving towards whatever your goals are as well and next time will ask more questions instead of making assumptions.
So far since I started this fitness adventure in mid March I've gone from over 30% BF to 19% BF. Blood pressure has gone from 140/90 to 117/78. Unhealthy levels of cholesterol, and triglyceride levels have been replaced by "normal" levels. My waist has gone from 49" to 42".
I understand that either will bring me gains but one must be better than the other or not? Is there some other reasonable way to explain this?
PP explains the methodology that Rip and co. use to develop an athlete as that athlete advances from raw beginner to an advanced or elite-level strength athlete. It's not a "program" anymore than a textbook on software design is a "program".
NROL is a series of pre-packaged routines that you just 'go do'.
__________________
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-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
Why is practical programming COMPLETELY different than NROL
but I didn't get round to it. Just my .02 cents.
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