Today someone corrected me on my form for this move. I normally I go lower than 90 degree's (that is I move my arms lower than parallel) on the downward (eccentric) portion of the move. A friend today corrected me and told me that you should only goto 90 degree's and then start your ascent again.
Is this correct? Does it really even matter? He said that it would make the move easier for me and that it was stretching the muscle as I was doing the move...
I go past 90 degrees all the time. The only discretion I have with that is that some people may present tight shoulder capsules (evidenced by a forward migration of the humeral head) and shouldn't load the eccentric action without proper control and movement. I think if one has good flexibility and strength, the act of bringing the weight down below parallel can help keep shoulders limber by stretching the anterior delt and chest. So in your case, I would be hesitant to say "yeah, go for it", without really taking a look at how you presently perform the movement and spotting any lurking problems.
To add to what John said, if you continue to go only to 90 degrees, you may only strengthen through that range of motion plus a few degrees. This can cause adhesions in the shoulder and chest and will not promote flexibility and strength through the entire ROM. There is nothing wrong with going past 90 degrees, there is only loading more than you can handle for the full ROM.
I have to respectfully disagree with you guys. I don't see any reason to go past 90 degrees (or anatomical position). Our shoulders aren't really designed for heavy loads in this position. It's not a natural movement, in my opinion, and it can aggravate/cause rotator cuff issues.
If you are going for flexibility, use only light weights, not the big stuff.
Maybe some of the Physical Therapists on the Board will weigh int here...
- J
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ACE-Certified Personal Trainer Since 2002
Lifetime Member of WeightWatchers
...The only discretion I have with that is that some people may present tight shoulder capsules (evidenced by a forward migration of the humeral head) and shouldn't load the eccentric action without proper control and movement.....so in your case, I would be hesitant to say "yeah, go for it", without really taking a look at how you presently perform the movement and spotting any lurking problems.
I guess I will quote myself...(this is why I sometimes hate forums because a "snap shot" is mistaken for your total stance on issues).
I agree that it doesn't mean YES DO IT...it depends on the amount of weight he is referring to, his "muscle maturity", and volume of chest work.
Pitching a baseball is not a natural movement for general population, but do you know how much power and velocity goes into that ROM? I think alot...again, I don't disagree with you, but my responose (not speaking for others) leaves alot of "grey" in there and not black and white.
Exactly. "Heavy weight" is relative. For some of us that can press 150-160lbs, 80lbs full ROM is not heavy weight, even though it may be for others. As always it's going to be client specific and also situation specific.
Gotcha. I understand what you guys were saying now. The only reason I get a little nervous about this extra movement is because there are indeed so many (mostly guys, sorry) people, particularly with the bench press, who try to do too much and with bad form.
I agree with your point about pitching - but I counter with the price those professional athletes often pay, later in life, with chronic rotator-cuff pain and dysfunction. Whether it's worth the price or not is, of course, up to them. For us mere mortals, however, whose careers don't depend on a world-class fastball, I would argue that more conservative training is in order.
Once again, as you stated, it all comes back to the client's goals. My training approach is probably more cautious than yours, since I work mostly with average, middle-aged (and elderly) people who are not, for the most part, working on athletic goals (except perhaps for their golf game!)
- J
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ACE-Certified Personal Trainer Since 2002
Lifetime Member of WeightWatchers
Jennifer, you are exactly right. Many guys throw caution out of the window in order to lift big weights and then they hurt themselves. I know firsthand, b/c in 2004 I did something fantastically stupid. I did a bench contest and put my bench shirt on at the contest. I had never practiced with it and dumped over 400lbs in my lap and jacked my left elbow and shoulder up. Four years later and they are still not the same and probably never will be.
Gotcha. I understand what you guys were saying now. The only reason I get a little nervous about this extra movement is because there are indeed so many (mostly guys, sorry) people, particularly with the bench press, who try to do too much and with bad form.
I agree with your point about pitching - but I counter with the price those professional athletes often pay, later in life, with chronic rotator-cuff pain and dysfunction. Whether it's worth the price or not is, of course, up to them. For us mere mortals, however, whose careers don't depend on a world-class fastball, I would argue that more conservative training is in order.
Once again, as you stated, it all comes back to the client's goals. My training approach is probably more cautious than yours, since I work mostly with average, middle-aged (and elderly) people who are not, for the most part, working on athletic goals (except perhaps for their golf game!)
- J
Of course, most guys will lift too much and never even come close to their chest in this exercise. The likelihood of going too low is probably slim here.
On a side note, I stopped doing all benching with my elbows out. I do them all with my arms tucked. In that position, especially with dumbbells, and especially with a neutral grip, you can go fairly low and not cause a problem. Mileage may vary, of course.
Well as a general rule, I normally have the inside weight portion of the dumbbell touch my Rotator Cuff, which in turn puts me past 90 degree's.
As far as weight I'm using; in a 5x5 Hypertrophy I, I haven't put up anything past 70lbs and I'm on my 9th week so far.
It doesn't feel "wrong" or anything like that, it was just that a friend that has much more experience than me and saw my form told me it was the wrong thing to do, even though I thought it wasn't.
Another thing I'll add to this,is to consider the length of the humerus. Some people will have long lanky upper arm bones that when they bring the DBs all the way down (as in the case of having the "bell" touch the delt), it can be a bit more riskier than beneficial. My arms are long--but my humerus seems a bit short. So...witth the added benefit of a nuetral grip during presses, it allows me a full ROM with ease. SOme people may not have that "luxury".
Another thing I'll add to this,is to consider the length of the humerus. Some people will have long lanky upper arm bones that when they bring the DBs all the way down (as in the case of having the "bell" touch the delt), it can be a bit more riskier than beneficial. My arms are long--but my humerus seems a bit short. So...witth the added benefit of a nuetral grip during presses, it allows me a full ROM with ease. SOme people may not have that "luxury".
Well, my arms are rather short, being that I'm 5'6.
Yeah, I think you're less likely to get into trouble with dumbbells. For one thing, you can't lift as much (benching) with DBs as with the bar. So I think DBs are more self-limiting. Plus if you fail, you just throw the DB (well, drop it, really, but with enough to get it away from you), vs. the bar, which we all know can end up on your trachea.
My cousin owns a 24-hour fitness facility where clients can gain entrance with a card-key. I asked him about the liability once, and he said that, not only do they require a waiver, but they have cameras all over the place to cover his ass.
Well, once upon a time, the camera caught just such shenanigans on video. A guy was trying to lift too much weight in a barbell bench press, and dropped the bar right on his teeth. Blood everywhere. I never asked how he managed to get out of there at whatever Godforsaken hour of the night it was....
Now, back to the OP: I think the moral of the story here is to use common sense (which, apparently, isn't so common!) If you are comfortable going past 90 degrees, then do so. If you are comfortable doing bench presses without a spotter, then do so. If you are smart and listen to your body, you'll be OK.
And I too like the neutral-grip DB press. I still worry about going past 90 with too much weight, though.... Here's just one example of why I think it's unnatural: one of my long-time clients, who is in great shape and has good overall strength, recently tore her rotator-cuff while PULLING HER ROLLING SUITCASE IN THE AIRPORT. Yup, she was trailing it behind her, with her arm extended and shoulder retracted. So, be careful with those shoulders, y'all.
(This also serves as yet another cautionary tale of how we hurt ourselves in daily activities BECAUSE we fail to take the precautions we automatically take when in the gym....)
- J
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ACE-Certified Personal Trainer Since 2002
Lifetime Member of WeightWatchers
Dumbbell Incline Benchpress Form
Linear Mode
