Book idea - NROL4T

[ashleymoran]

I haven't read NROL4W, mainly because I'm not a woman, but also because I figured it would be too similar to NROL to benefit from having both.

Seems like it's taken off though - maybe that means there's a market for New Rules of Lifting for Teens? Has it been suggested before?

I thought about it because the guy that owns my gym has starting running GCSE groups, ie 14-15 year-olds. Most of the girls seriously need to eat a few less burgers a day and most of the lads are seriously in need of a few MORE burgers a day But they are doing nothing but machines and isolated dumbell exercises with paperweights. Not one of them has picked anything heavy off the floor or gone near a barbell.

I made the mistake of suggesting to a guy that was waiting for the squat rack off me (the full rant is somewhere in another thread) that they should be doing some big lifts if they want some strength and bulk. With the wisdom imparted to him by a diploma in sports science and NINE (he emphasises this when you speak to him) years of training, apparently squats are life threatening to children and teenagers and might permanently cripple them, so they should only use machines.

My NROL is on loan to a friend and I don't remember how old Lou said he was when he started training. But it would be good if there was a book out there that would get kids off to a better start, and stop them wasting years doing pointless exercises. (And even worse, believing that what they did was right and telling everyone else to train like that.)

[OldGuy]

I think Lou said he was working on a book with Nate Green that was geared to the younger crowd, but I wouldn't expect that until next yer.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I started training 2 years ago when I was 16 and just used "adult" programs. Worked fine for me.

The book would be a great idea. Lots of misconceptions about lifting/nutrition among teens(don't get me started on this).

The only problem, however, is that it would be hell to market and sell. 99% of teenage males are not going to go out, buy a book, then actually read it. And regarding the ones who do read it, most of them are going to completely disregard what it says. When you're 15, you know everything.

[Brian108]

Im 15 and i do the NROL and it seems to work fine.... however a book geared towards teens would be good, I would definitely buy it

[ashleymoran]

Originally Posted by ParanoidAndroid

The only problem, however, is that it would be hell to market and sell. 99% of teenage males are not going to go out, buy a book, then actually read it. And regarding the ones who do read it, most of them are going to completely disregard what it says. When you're 15, you know everything.

You may be right that by the time you get to the ones that read AND listened to it there's be very few left. From the publisher's point of view though I think they are more bothered about how many read it

But then, I've only been lifting for 10 months and I've already come to the conclusions that 99% of adult males read nothing about training, or just disregard it. And some of them definitely think they know everything too. (Generally, the more cock-sure of themselves they are the less they actually know.)

There's no reason why teenagers couldn't follow the original NROL - and I suppose out of all the "other" demographics teenage boys are the most likely to go out any buy men's books on weight training - but then there's no reason women (or even old people) couldn't either. The problem in these cases is the even worse perception that lifting weights (like a man) is unsuitable or highly dangerous.

Kudos is due to Brian for following NROL - see, there is hope! I wish I'd started at 15 now. (Eek that's 10 years ago - what have I been doing?) But then, NROL was years from being published so there was a good chance I'd have spent 8 years doing bicep curls in the squat rack and given up all hope by now.

[Irishman301]

If I would have read NROL when I was 15, I'd be JACKED right now. Unfortunately I tried training like a pro bodybuilder since then (just like every other young, uneducated guy you see at the gym) doing tons of curls, tricep pushdowns, bench presses, leg extensions, etc... The thought of doing a squat or a deadlift never even occured to me until about 9 months ago (I'm 25), and I've made more gains in these last 9 months then I did in the previous 6 years.

My point is, is that NROL tells you the way to train plain and simple. There's no better way to train no matter what age you are. Even if you don't follow the routines in the book, the "new rules" are really all you need to know to put together a good routine. Lift big, lift hard, eat right. That's the way.

[ashleymoran]

Originally Posted by Irishman301

The thought of doing a squat or a deadlift never even occured to me until about 9 months ago (I'm 25), and I've made more gains in these last 9 months then I did in the previous 6 years.

Hey Irishman, we're in almost exactly the same boat. I'm the same age and have been deadlifting only one month more than you. The difference is I did no weight lifting before then (I had done about 3 years of kung fu and yoga though).

It makes me feel a lot better knowing that 9months NROL = 6 years bodybuilding mag programmes! That mathematically proves that by the end of July I'll have made the same gains as if I'd been curling since I was 15

Of course I'm still jealous of all the teenagers that stumbled across this now. What would 10 years of NROL do for you?

Originally Posted by Irishman301

My point is, is that NROL tells you the way to train plain and simple. There's no better way to train no matter what age you are. Even if you don't follow the routines in the book, the "new rules" are really all you need to know to put together a good routine. Lift big, lift hard, eat right. That's the way.

Aye very true. I still think that there's room for a more advanced NROL book (New Rules of Programme Design?), in line with the Human Kinetics books. There's a lot of stuff in NROL - mainly Alwyn's stuff I think, but also the anatomy of some lifts - that is not really explained in detail. Why certain exercises are paired, why certain supporting exercises are included, how the rep ranges and rest periods (inter-set and inter-workout) were chosen, etc. All of this would be useful to anyone that's completed the programme, or maybe struggling due to imbalances.

I've figured out a lot by reading some of the authors mentioned in the bibliography (and from the tone of Lou's rules I think he wants you to read other people's books), but I'd still like to see Lou and Alwyn's thinking. That way there would be a book I could give to people and say "follow this and come back in 12 months when you're strong", and another to say "here's why it worked". (I was about to say one to give to skeptics, but if someone just wants to curl, then curlin's what they'll do.)

[Lou Schuler]

Ashley, thanks for the suggestion. The conventional wisdom in publishing is that it's very difficult to sell books to teenagers.

Aside from the issue of finances (when kids have a credit card that's not maxed out, are they going to use it to buy a book?), there's also the problem of perception: Is this a top-down thing, some middle-aged adult you've never heard of telling you to do exercises you've never tried?

I really admire you young guys for learning all this early, and working to get it right.

I started lifting when I was 13, but never read anything about the subject until I bought a Gold's Gym book when I was in my late 20s. (I wasn't even reading bodybuilding magazines; I just picked up weights and lifted, either at home or in whatever gym I had access to.) And, as I wrote in NROL, I didn't do squats or deadlifts until the mid-1990s, when I was in my late 30s and had already been working out for more than a quarter-century.

As OG mentioned, I'm working on a book with Nate Green that will probably be published this December. It's definitely geared toward guys in their 20s, but there's nothing in there that a teenager shouldn't or couldn't do. For that matter, there's no reason a guy in his 50s couldn't do it, either. (I did all the workouts while we were planning the book last year.)

The one caution I would throw out to teenage lifters is that it's not a good idea to push yourself into serious powerlifting training until your body is fully mature. I assume powerlifters would disagree with me on that, but I've met and heard from a lot of guys who seriously messed up their shoulders and knees by pushing themselves too far, too fast, at too young an age.

Your body is going to get stronger anyway if you do the core exercises as part of your regular training. I just wouldn't get too carried away with 1RM lifts in your first few years of training. Give your bones a chance to finish growing, give your connective tissues a chance to catch up, and then start pushing your limits in your late teens and early 20s.

[Irishman301]

Definately! I would love to read a book like that written by these guys. I've actually been considering the possibility of trying to design my own routines. I did H-1, H-2, S-1, and some of S-2 before I hurt my knee. I'm now back on H-1 again, and I'm noticing some things that I would like to change (I think that's actually what the book recommends. You're encouraged to use your own body and judgement as a guide).

I like low-rep, heavy deadlifts. I like varying the rep range for squats. Lunges and step-ups should be worked in the 10 - 15 rep ranges. Bench pressing and rowing should be done heavy and with low reps. Pull-ups and chin-ups should be done in reps of 10, and if I'm able to do multiple sets of more then 10, I should add weight so that I can only do 3 sets of 10 reps. I like to vary the reps for overhead pressing and switch between barbells and dumbells. I like seated rows done in the 5 - 10 rep range.

That's what I found to work best for me for each of the main lifts. The problem is is that I wouldn't know how to vary up the routines so that I make a routine change every 6 - 8 weeks. Also, for hypertrophy, I wouldn't know how to select the varying rep ranges and still stick to what I said above. I mean, I'm sure I could come up with something that works pretty well for me, but I'd feel a lot better if I had Lou and Alwyns seal of approval on it. Otherwise, I'd feel as if I could be doing better. I dunno, maybe they encourage thinking for yourself, but that's hard.

[ParanoidAndroid]

As OG mentioned, I'm working on a book with Nate Green that will probably be published this December. It's definitely geared toward guys in their 20s, but there's nothing in there that a teenager shouldn't or couldn't do. For that matter, there's no reason a guy in his 50s couldn't do it, either. (I did all the workouts while we were planning the book last year.)

How do you aim a book towards younger guys as opposed to older guys? More aggresive programs for guys who want to look great and be strong, as opposed to the average 50 year old guy(my dad comes to mind), who just wants to lose his gut and keep his body healthy?

Give your bones a chance to finish growing, give your connective tissues a chance to catch up, and then start pushing your limits in your late teens and early 20s.

Where does 18 fall? In your opinion, is it "ok" for me to be hitting heavy(for me) maxes(315+ squat, 375+ dead, ect)?

[Irishman301]

At 18 years old you should be squatting at least 600 lbs. and deadlifting 750+....

J/K, I would be really jealous of you then.

[Lou Schuler]

Originally Posted by ParanoidAndroid

How do you aim a book towards younger guys as opposed to older guys? More aggresive programs for guys who want to look great and be strong, as opposed to the average 50 year old guy(my dad comes to mind), who just wants to lose his gut and keep his body healthy?


Where does 18 fall? In your opinion, is it "ok" for me to be hitting heavy(for me) maxes(315+ squat, 375+ dead, ect)?

I don't know if your body is fully mature at 18. It varies from one person to the next. I think there'd also have to be some wiggle room, based on training experience and the degree to which your form has been corrected with good coaching.

Just based on what I've seen in my own gym, the average teenager needs a lot of coaching on the basic lifts. I have yet to see a teenage male perform barbell squats with good form.

(I should add that there's a Velocity facility on the other side of my gym, and I assume the kids working out there are athletes using much better technique. The ones in the regular gym, where I lift, are more likely to be self-taught or buddy-coached.)

As for Built for Show, the book I'm working on with Nate, the main point of differentiation is the fact it addresses this audience at all. The text encourages readers to forget about bodybuilding techniques and seek out a stronger, more athletic physique.

It has four 12-week programs, two of which are focused on strength and power, with the other two geared toward fat loss. All four, of course, would lead to hypertrophy. (I don't think I could make a living putting out books with programs that produce smaller muscles.) And if you do them in order, it's a year-long, periodized system.

Like I said, there's nothing about the training techniques that would make them appropriate for a 21-year-old but not for a 50-year-old. If your dad wants bigger, thicker shoulders and a smaller waist, these workouts should work just fine.

And any exercise program enhances health, especially one that makes muscles bigger and stronger while reducing body fat.

[Irishman301]

Originally Posted by Lou Schuler

As for Built for Show, the book I'm working on with Nate, the main point of differentiation is the fact it addresses this audience at all. The text encourages readers to forget about bodybuilding techniques and seek out a stronger, more athletic physique.

Hell ya! Sounds like another great book. I can't wait until I comes out.

BTW, Lou since you're around answering questions. I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind answering one of mine.

As I was saying in another thread, I was considering putting together my own NROL type routine using the information that I've learned in the last 9 months of doing NROL. I want to stick with the hypertrophy style routines where you alternate sets, reps, and rest times. Basically I'd stick to an upper/lower split like H-1, because that seems to work best for me, but I want to stick to some of these guidelines:

Squats - widely varying rep range (3 to 20)
Deadlifts - no more then 6 reps (1 to 6)
Lunges, step-ups, bulgarian split squats - higher reps (8 to 15)
Pull-ups and chin-ups - (5 to 10, lower reps will be weighted)
Shoulder press - varying (3 to 10)
Bench press - varying (3 to 10)
Rows - varying (3 to 10)

As you can see that there's some stuff that I like to stick to higher rep ranges, and some stuff that I like to stick to lower ranges. I'm not too crazy about heavy singles either except for with deadlifts.

Also, the routine I design I would try to stick to it for as long as I can until I can no longer increase the weight.

What are your thoughts on this?
Also, do you have any books that explain program design in much more detail? (I think someone else asked that)

[Irishman301]

Oops I just realize that it was this thread that I asked this question in, so I just repeated myself. Sorry about that, but I'd still like to hear what your thoughts are.

[ashleymoran]

Originally Posted by Lou Schuler

Ashley, thanks for the suggestion. The conventional wisdom in publishing is that it's very difficult to sell books to teenagers.

Aside from the issue of finances (when kids have a credit card that's not maxed out, are they going to use it to buy a book?), there's also the problem of perception: Is this a top-down thing, some middle-aged adult you've never heard of telling you to do exercises you've never tried?

Hi Lou,

Good points - I see the economic problems (well kinda, I'm not in publishing). As for whether kids are prepared to spend money on books, I don't know the answer. I've always been under the impression that teenagers (especially males) are more likely to buy magazines than books, so maybe a series in a bodybuilding magazine to promote the book would be a good back-door. As for whether the programmes would look like some mysterious guy telling you to do strange exercises, well I think that is a problem with NROL anyway! It hasn't stopped it being successful though. Am I right thinking the only curls in there are semi-pronated towel curls? (So they are not even targetting the biceps to the maximum amount.) Heresy!!!

My impression of young guys, especially teenagers, (although not the ones here - the fact you are on a forum means you must be trying to do it right), is that they don't give a damn about natural compound movements, exercise form, muscular balance, incremental progress, or periodization, and they definitely don't give a damn about working their legs until their heart feels like its going to explode and their muscles feel like they've been run through a meat grinder. (Alwyn must be sent to hell for combining Bulgarians and step ups!!!) In short none of the things that make NROL great.

What they care about is being as big/hard/strong as their favourite bodybuilder/martial artist/powerlifter. I bet if one of the Gracie brothers did NROL you'd have NO trouble selling the programme to teenagers. (Having said that I really hate celebrity endorsements.) I'm 99% sure that most teenagers you got on NROL would be so amazed by the results they'd suddenly take an interest in all the exercise geek stuff (such as why compound movements are better).

The young guys I see at the gyms I go (and I mean, pretty much every single one I can think of) fall roughly into one of these groups:

• Late teens - late 20s. Training since school. Often go alone. Pretty big and strong, but often with poor form on squats and DLs, and always do isolated exercises or machines instead of unilateral compound moves for support. Often at a plateau and not really focused on improving. Would benefit from the big lifts in the Strength programmes to give them a new goal, but seem pretty settled in their routine.
  
• Late teens - mid 20s. Often go with a training partner or two. Generally slim-athletic build build but not as strong as should be. Tend to hang around the benches together and do a lot of dumbell work (flies and raises especially). Their friends are always too eager to help them on dumbell bench presses (let go of his elbows!!!). Never do squats or DLs, and wouldn't be seen dead doing a step-up. They are dying for the Hypertrophy programmes but would probably be terrified of missing any of the 49 different shoulder exercises that are bulking them up (apparently).
  
• Mid teens - early/mid 20s. Usually go alone. Generally slim and never very strong. Generally use machines, and don't even push themselves on those. Never pick up free weights except for tricep extensions or curls. Could not identify an unlabelled squat rack. Always look a bit intimidated by the older/bigger lads. They would benefit the most from NROL, but would probably be terrified of stepping on the free weight mat in case they got hit by a flying dumbell. I feel sorry for them because they are pretty committed but have no direction and make no progress.

That's my observation anyway. It may just be peculiar to the gyms round here, and not much use in general.

Oh, and FWIW, the only guy that's asked about NROL exercises is in his 40s, and wants to join in with some deadlifts and squats. Plenty of others have commented how much stronger I'm getting, but they are all twice the size of me anyway (see group 1 above...). Still the encouragement is nice. I have this strange feeling though that the more I get out of NROL, the less likely the others are to ask about it.

Originally Posted by Lou Schuler

As OG mentioned, I'm working on a book with Nate Green that will probably be published this December.

This should be great. Scratch what I said about the Gracies I will buy a copy. I'll need some new workout ideas by then.

Originally Posted by Lou Schuler

The one caution I would throw out to teenage lifters is that it's not a good idea to push yourself into serious powerlifting training until your body is fully mature. I assume powerlifters would disagree with me on that, but I've met and heard from a lot of guys who seriously messed up their shoulders and knees by pushing themselves too far, too fast, at too young an age.

Your body is going to get stronger anyway if you do the core exercises as part of your regular training. I just wouldn't get too carried away with 1RM lifts in your first few years of training. Give your bones a chance to finish growing, give your connective tissues a chance to catch up, and then start pushing your limits in your late teens and early 20s.

This is all stuff that will help get people off to a good start. There's just nothing safe, effective and accessible available to young lifters, except for ones adventurous enough to try NROL.

[Lou Schuler]

Irishman, I've been lifting for 38 years, and I've learned I'm not capable of designing good workouts for myself -- mostly for reasons you illustrate in your question. I tell myself that I do better with particular exercises in particular rep ranges, and end up with a program that builds on my strengths and never addresses my weaknesses.

Even when I use someone else's template, I end up designing programs that aren't nearly as effective as the ones the trainer creates with his own system.

Case in point:

Last fall, kind of out of the blue, Chad Waterbury and I got an offer to write a massive workout book for my former employer. Chad and I had been talking about doing a book based on his presentation at last year's JP Fitness Summit, so we jumped on the opportunity.

Problem is, from the time we got the green light from the publisher to the book's deadline, we only had about three months to pull together a 360-page manuscript (the actual book, when it has all the charts and photos, should be more than 400 pages).

We ended up writing everything out of order, with Chad putting together the actual workouts last. While I was waiting for them, I put together my own workouts based on all the parameters he described in the chapters we worked on first.

It worked great for a while, but after a month or so I got into a rut. I enjoyed being in my comfort zone, and I improved in a few lifts, but overall I was stuck on a plateau for part of November and all of December.

I started doing the real workouts in January, and all of a sudden I was off the plateau and seeing week by week improvements. I was forced to do exercises I don't like, in rep ranges I would never select for myself. I also had to stop doing some exercises I really enjoy.

Just to give you one example, I could do 10 chin-ups (underhand grip) with my body-weight, and low-rep sets of chins with additional weight. I thought that was pretty good for a guy my age. But when the program switched to conventional pull-ups (overhand grip), I discovered I could barely do 3 with my body weight. I had no idea my strength was that far out of balance, and I felt like a total fraud.

I could give you a bunch more examples of either overestimating or underestimating my relative strength and ability to do some basic exercises, but the chin-up/pull-up story is the most extreme.

That said, if you want to learn to design your own programs, Alwyn has a book on that subject, and Ian King has several.