Bulgarian split squats make my rear leg quads ache - JP Fitness Forums

ashleymoran · 02-06-2008, 06:01 PM

Hi

I hope someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong. The Bulgarian split squats should put very little stress on the rear leg, right?

But when I do them, I get through the first half with my weaker (left) leg forward, then swap, and struggle to get through the second half on my right leg because my left leg on the bench gives out.

I'm not sure what else I can say to describe how I do the exercises that might be useful. Anyone got any idea where I'm going wrong?

Thanks in advance
Ashley

LisaS · 02-06-2008, 06:07 PM

Is the top of your back foot flat on the bench so it can give little to no assistance? You shouldn't be up on your toes as for a lunge.

You might try stepping out more (or less) to see if you can change the angle so that it participates less.

What feels like it is giving out/tiring out - the quads or the glute/hamstrings?

Does it change if you switch the order of the legs? Is it that the rear leg on the second set is an issue rather than particularly the left leg?

eta: oh, I see from the title that it seems like your quads are aching - maybe you are isometrically pushing down through your back leg/foot (extending the knee) as a balancing movement?

ashleymoran · 02-06-2008, 06:37 PM

I have to rest the side of my foot on the bench. If I try and rest the top of my foot I just can't keep it there, and it seizes up with cramp anyway (that happens occasionally anyway).

Currently the distance I step out is to stand by the bench with both feet together and my calves against the bench, then put the forward heel one foot's length in front of the other (ie there is a gap from the heel of the front foot to the toe of my back foot that is the length of my foot). Then I raise my back foot. Any shorter than this and I can't physically squat down, any longer and I end up putting a lot of weight on the rear leg to support me.

I haven't tried it squatting on my right leg first.

I must be extending my rear knee to support me... but then, with my centre of gravity behind my front heel, there must be some support from the rear leg, otherwise I'd collapse backwards.

Cynic · 02-06-2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashleymoran

I have to rest the side of my foot on the bench. If I try and rest the top of my foot I just can't keep it there, and it seizes up with cramp anyway (that happens occasionally anyway).
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I must be extending my rear knee to support me... but then, with my centre of gravity behind my front heel, there must be some support from the rear leg, otherwise I'd collapse backwards.

Sounds like you're loading it.

The back foot does stabilize, but you shouldn't be loading it so much. The center of gravity should be more toward your working foot and not so much behind it.

ashleymoran · 02-07-2008, 03:41 AM

Hmm, how do I keep my CoG forwards? If I move forwards it pushes my knee out way past my toe.

Cynic · 02-07-2008, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashleymoran

Hmm, how do I keep my CoG forwards? If I move forwards it pushes my knee out way past my toe.

That's actually a myth.

I personally feel the real problem with the knee past the toe comes when you continue to push forward in the lunge. You'll have more sheering forces on the joint then.

I used to do that. Once I placed the foot, I would continue to push forward. Not ideal. Once you place the foot, you should be descending.

however, the BSS is not an easy exercise to master properly due to balance issues. What shoes are you wearing? Do you have a good flat sole?

Lisa~ · 02-07-2008, 06:37 AM

If your quads are tight, you'll probably feel the extreme stretch on the back quad and it burns. I always feel my back quad too. I've never had a client who didn't. And your forward knee should remain directly above your foot, not forward of your foot like in some lunges. This is a sinlge-leg supported movement, to use Mike Boyle's terminology. So you're supported by that back leg. The idea is just to minimize the load on the back leg. Here are a couple of threads that might add more insight:

Bulgarian split squat and leg numbness

Bulgarian Split Squats

AFI82 · 02-07-2008, 02:48 PM

I have to concentrate to keep my CoG coming straight up from the heel of my working leg. If I keep my back straight and try to position my shoulders over the heel of my working leg, I'm good to go. All my back leg does is aid a little in left/right balancing once I start to get tired.

Setup several times, changing your distance from the bench each time. It took me a while to get my stridge length right, and I still have issues with it if I don't pay close attention.

ashleymoran · 02-07-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFI82

I have to concentrate to keep my CoG coming straight up from the heel of my working leg. If I keep my back straight and try to position my shoulders over the heel of my working leg, I'm good to go. All my back leg does is aid a little in left/right balancing once I start to get tired.

How do you keep your CoG above your heel on the way down? If you get to parallel and your knee is above your heel, then your torso MUST be your thigh's length behind your heel.

Maybe the problem is that I'm quite tall, and my legs are quite long? That means my CoG goes further back as I sink into the squat.

Lisa - I had a look through the threads, but the couldn't find anything that sounds like what I'm doing. Also, I don't think my quads are that tight - if I sit between my heels, I can lie back right the way without my knees coming up, although my back feels tight when my shoulders are down. (Maybe there is a better test for that.)

Cynic · 02-07-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa~

And your forward knee should remain directly above your foot, not forward of your foot like in some lunges.

I'll keep that in mind. I thought the myth of knee past the toe was universal.

Lisa~ · 02-07-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashleymoran

Lisa - I had a look through the threads, but the couldn't find anything that sounds like what I'm doing.

Maybe it will help if I show you some good BSS pictures and videos. At least I hope so.

Here's an excellent bottom position for a BSS (from Single-Leg Supplements
by Mike Robertson)

Squat Rx #3 give instructions for the BSS near the end of the video, starting at about 6:30. He uses a low box and puts his toe on the box instead of the top of his foot, but his discussion of stride length and forward foot/leg position might be helpful.

Here's the College of the Holy Cross' BSS.

Does that help?

ashleymoran · 02-08-2008, 11:58 AM

Ah ok. Here's how I compare to the squats you linked to:

CotHC: she lets her knee go forward to just behind the toe. I keep my shin vertical, which means I must be further back. That must be putting more weight on the rear leg.

Squat Rx - he does this with about two foot-lengths between his rear toe and forward heel. This moves his CoG relatively nearer his front foot.

Mike Robertson - he has an even longer stride, plus he leans forward. I was under the impression you should keep your spine as vertical as possible - is his position due to the use of a barbell?

I think I will try with a longer stride and a bit more forward movement in my front knee. Next week that is. I'm not voluntarily adding in an extra set before then

Lisa~ · 02-08-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashleymoran

Mike Robertson - he has an even longer stride, plus he leans forward. I was under the impression you should keep your spine as vertical as possible - is his position due to the use of a barbell?

Yes. (FYI, that's not Mike in the picture, but one of his athletes from Ball State.) For the bodyweight or DB BSSs you're doing, try to stay pretty upright. Also, different bodies will look a bit different in any movement. Different heights and limb lengths create different angles. But the keys remain the same. Minimize push-off from the rear foot. Upward drive comes from the heel of the forward foot. And the torso should remain fairly upright. You'll find your own best position with trial and error.

Cynic · 02-08-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa~

Yes. (FYI, that's not Mike in the picture, but one of his athletes from Ball State.)

That's the Bandana man. He's gathered a bit of a cult following due to his prevelence in Mike Robertson's articles.

Lisa~ · 02-08-2008, 04:49 PM

The Bandana man, hahahahaha. Yeah, I love him too. He's got great form.

ashleymoran · 02-08-2008, 06:10 PM

disclaimer - friday night vodka may interfere with attempt to post weight lifting quiestion

the way bandana man leans forward, is that correct? i thought that was cheating the iliopsoas. if you can do a bb bulgarian death squat with an upright torso is that better? or will a bb make you lean forward anyway?

are there any golden rules for the death squats? so far i am thinking...
* push with the heel (golden rule in any leg exercise...)
* keep torso upright unless using a bb (I use DBs, i like DBs because of the grip training)
* relax the back leg (i'm used to this idea from tai chi training - that your legs should be relaxed even when they are working at their hardest)

is that a good starting point to find my idea BDS position?

ashleymoran · 02-16-2008, 08:16 AM

Just for reference, I solved the problem I was having with death squats by doing this:

Stepping one foot's length further out from the bench (front heel is three foot lengths from the bench)
Keeping the rear leg inline, supporting with my big toe not the blade of my foot
Letting the dumbells hang slightly forward (I'm only using 2x7.5kg anyway)

I still wanted to cry by the time I'd finished them, but it was for a better reason