I just got turned on to this forum from another forum I visit regularly: Men's Health Forums. I just started with NROL on 12/31/07, and even started a blog about it. I started lifting last year in February and was following the Men's Health Home Grown Muscle workout until I got hurt late in November. I took six weeks off and decided to come back into it with NROL. New year, new program.
Anyway, my question:
This morning I did deadlifts with 205lbs (my first time over 200). I was able to do the full first set (205x15), and most of the second set (205x10, followed by 135x5 to do 15 reps). When I was lifting I noticed that my lower back was the most fatigued(?) part of my body. No pain, just noticeable fatigue.
Does this mean that I was pushing my limits and at the verge of getting hurt? Or is it just that these muscles are weaker and really are just getting fatigued more. Or maybe my form is not quite right?
I do try to concentrate on correct form while lifting, but maybe I'm not doing it right because of the heavier weight?
Any advice/comments/ideas would be greatly appreciated.
IMO- whenever you try to do high reps with deads (bent knee deads) you will find a breakdown with form and more stress placed on the lower back. I'm not sure how this exercise is in NROL, but each time that weight hits the floor you become susceptible to gaining "slack" in your joints especially as fatigue sets in.
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"If you do most of your training on a balance board, a Swiss Ball, or a Bosu ball, you'll have a tremendous core and a small, weak body that we'll all laugh at."
TC Luoma
I am working the Break-In program and did 2 sets of 160x15 with the 60 sec blow between sets. I noticed a little bit of lower back fatigue but had more of a problem with grip fatgiue. Both were in the second set.
Note - Yes I used to be one of those dummies doing forearm curls at the gym. If you want to work the crap out of your forearms, do deadlifts. In fact, they pretty much beat your whole body to a pulp. Thanks for putting those first Alwyn.
I had to stop doing DL's about a year and a half ago because my back started acting up. I kept trying to get back into doing them and, just recently, what I've found that works for me is to arch my back (opposite of rounding it) as far as I can and hold that tightly throughout the entire lift. If I don't do that, the strain sets in pretty fast. I can still feel it but this allows me to at least DL again. Maybe my form wasn't as good as I thought before but this is about the only way I do this anymore.
I meant to post this comment elsewhere but, since this door has been opened, I thought I'd post it here.
Q is right that you have to maintain lumbar spine position, and that's difficult to do for 15 reps. Many trainers do not prescribe high-rep conventional deads for this very reason. High rep deads are in a lot of Alwyn's programs and his goal in using them is to create that metabolic disturbance that is a big part of the NROL. They certainly do that! So, if you're going to use high-rep sets of deads, then you've got to make sure your form is impeccable throughout the set, either by keeping the weight moderate or by incredible mental focus on form.
Many others have struggled with this same issue. There was a very helpful discussion in this thread: DL Hell
I am working the Break-In program and did 2 sets of 160x15 with the 60 sec blow between sets. I noticed a little bit of lower back fatigue but had more of a problem with grip fatgiue. Both were in the second set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa~
Q is right that you have to maintain lumbar spine position, and that's difficult to do for 15 reps. Many trainers do not prescribe high-rep conventional deads for this very reason. ... So, if you're going to use high-rep sets of deads, then you've got to make sure your form is impeccable throughout the set, either by keeping the weight moderate or by incredible mental focus on form.
Previously, my poor/weak grip when doing DL's caused alot of problems for me. I developed Ganglion cysts is several fingers that hurt enough to cause me to give up DL's for a while.
Lisa, thanks for your insight on the high-rep aspect of DL's. I can see that happening too.
Thanks for all the advice. Lisa, thanks for the DL Hell link. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. I was worried that I was on the verge of getting hurt, and I guess if I don't watch my form I can, but I'll focus even more on form from here on out.
I have another question for you guys... I expected to be REALLY sore today because I had DL'ed more than I had before, but there's really not that much soreness there. What's the deal with that?
I'm guessing that my body has learned to adapt quickly, but doesn't that adaptation diminish any gains I might see? I guess that's why I'm at the end of Break In and ready to move on. (?)
I also did not experience as much soreness from DL’s (or squats for that matter) as I did from static lunges and step-ups. I don’t know if it comes down to basic strength imbalances that are unique to an individual, or the nature of one movement vs. another.
There seem to be quite a few top notch trainers on this site, so hopefully they can jump in on this one. The DL’s, step-ups, and lunges do get my heart rate up faster than anything else.
JLO, there's still time for soreness to set in! HA! DOMS can begin anywhere from 12 to 48 hours after a bout of exercise. Or maybe you won't be sore. I don't know. Soreness is not a good measure of the effectiveness of training. Strength increases and better endurance in high-rep sets is a much better marker of progress.
Soreness is not a good measure of the effectiveness of training.
Thanks Lisa, that's good to know. That, at least, gives me some hope that I'm still benefiting from training.
Funny thing about soreness: I hate moving around when I'm really sore (bathroom breaks from my desk job are killers), but I really miss the pain when I'm not.
JLO,
Thanks for starting this thread- It will help me as I am starting FLIII today. Talk about high rep deadlifts! Between 70 and 80 reps in 1 session. Intimidating. But now I know how important concentration is with this lift.
My journey with NORL has been Break-in for 1 month, then FLII. Best thing is I get sore, but not crippled. Well, maybe a little after discovering lunges. Being given permission to not have to be on the treadmill for an hour was a godsend. Has anyone else noticed how hard intervals are after deadlifts? Much more than with squats.
I completed the Break In program with the last workout B of the program this morning. I did my deadlifts with 205lbs again. I considered 195 for a while, but decided on 205. I really concentrated on my form this morning and didn't quite feel the fatigue in the lower back like last time.
The weird thing, though, was that I grip gave out on the 10th rep of my second set. So I was able to do just as many reps of the deadlift this time as last, but my grip gave out this time and not the last.
Oh well, it still feels good to do 15 then 10 reps of 205lbs. That's a big accomplishment for a non-athlete like me.
Deadlift Question
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