Substitutions for Deadlifts (and maybe squats?) - JP Fitness Forums

lawyerjoke · 01-08-2008, 09:36 AM

Howdy, folks! I could sure use some help.

I started NROL last year, and was making great progress until I hurt my back doing bent over rows. I was off work for a week, got discouraged, and didn't really return to regular lifting until now. I've made a fresh start and am going through Break-In again.

I did deadlifts for the first time this morning, starting with what I thought was a low-enough weight (89 lbs). However, my back started twinging during the second set and is sore now. I'm sure that I've got form issues, but I also don't want to go through this again.

Are there some good substitute exercises I can do for the deadlifts (and maybe even squats) and still continue with NROL? Or should I look for a different program?

I love NROL and am convinced it can produce fantastic results. I know DL & Squats are some of the best things I can do, but I don't want to blow out my back again. I lift at home, so I can't really consult a trainer -- just watch the form videos on-line.

I'd sure appreciate some advice from all you experienced folks on whether I should persist with the DL's and squats at very, very light weights, or whether I should find some better substitutes. Thanks for your wisdom!!

Cynic · 01-08-2008, 10:03 AM

Have you had a doctor check your back? A specialist to determine if there is a problem?

I've had to drop weight far below what I was comfortable telling people, but my strength grew pretty quickly.

I've also gotten extremely sore during the workout, to the point I knew I was heading toward a major muscle breakdown that could have done serious damage. So I stopped the workout. I've also reduced rep/set in the break-in and did a break-in to the break-in. Starting at 2x5, then 2x8, 2x11, then 2x15. At 2x15, I started recording the break-in program.

There really is no substitute for a deadlift, but there may be other ways to accomplish it.

Maybe using bands for resistance, or chains. That way the resistance grows as you get more upright to normal.

lawyerjoke · 01-08-2008, 10:23 AM

Thanks, Cynic -- it's comforting to know you've been there, too! I'll try backing off in a major way and slowly building up -- it's hard on my pride, but I know it's better to be humble than broke down.

I've been to my GP before, who said it was an inflamed disc. He gave me heavy-duty anti-inflammatories, which helped some. I've never been to a specialist, but I reckon I need to break down and go.

Lisa~ · 01-08-2008, 12:00 PM

Didn't we discuss all this with you last year?

It's not always about lowering the load. If you have hip mobility issues that won't allow you to get into position to even do a deadlift or squat, lowering the load won't resolve the issue. Some options might be to spend 6-8 weeks doing a corrective program to "fix your force couples," or maybe you only need to add more hip mobility drills to your warm-up, or maybe you would be able to use front squats or use only single-leg squats and single-leg deads for a while until your mobility and strength improve.

lawyerjoke · 01-08-2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa~

Didn't we discuss all this with you last year?

It's not always about lowering the load. If you have hip mobility issues that won't allow you to get into position to even do a deadlift or squat, lowering the load won't resolve the issue. Some options might be to spend 6-8 weeks doing a corrective program to "fix your force couples," or maybe you only need to add more hip mobility drills to your warm-up, or maybe you would be able to use front squats or use only single-leg squats and single-leg deads for a while until your mobility and strength improve.

Thanks, Lisa. I thought we had discussed it, too, but I did a quick search through my old posts before posting this and didn't find anything. (I had knee issues, also -- looking back, I tend to complain a lot!)

(If we did discuss this already, I'm really sorry for asking the same question twice...)

I've never had any problems with squats, nor do I feel like I've had any form issues with squats (though I'm sure an expert might disagree!) -- my concern with the DL's just spilled over into squats, as well.

I've been impatient and not wanting to deal with mobility issues, etc. (thinking to myself -- too much work and preparation, just get me to the results-producing stuff!), but I know I can't ignore it. I know I need to work on mobility, so I will do that, too. I'll read the force couples article, also.

Thanks for the patience and the continued good advice.

Lisa~ · 01-08-2008, 12:33 PM

Maybe we didn't discuss it exactly like this. It was just a vague recollection. Now that I search back, we went over deadlift technique in this thread and you discussed your knee issues in a couple of threads in the Injuries forum. Someone recommended that you purchase Bulletproof Knees. I want to second that suggestion. Mike includes sample workouts in the book that would get your mobility and strength where it needs to be. Then you'd be ready to really do some deadlifting for real. The mobility issues that cause knee pain can also cause back pain.

Here's another article from Mike Robertson on a similar subject: The Mobility-Stability Continuum

Finding some way to improve your hip mobility is the only way you're going to get to where you want to be. You've already said you know you need to work on it, so let that be a part of your programming. If squats don't bother you, then keep up the rest of the program and put single-leg deadlift variations in the deadlift spots. Then write on your training log sheet the mobility work you intend to do, and then do it at the beginning of your workout. On off days you'll need to continue the mobility drills and add static flexibility drills too. It's adding to the NROL program, but it's not strenuous, it's just needed.

lawyerjoke · 01-08-2008, 01:13 PM

Thanks again, Lisa. I'm convinced.

I'm going to get my head wrapped around the mobility stuff and add it to my program.

I'll have to save up for Bulletproof Knees. In the meantime, I'm going to print out the articles and start learnin'.

PS -- by the way, I love the Schuler quote re: Splenda!

lawyerjoke · 01-08-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa~

Didn't we discuss all this with you last year?

It's not always about lowering the load. If you have hip mobility issues that won't allow you to get into position to even do a deadlift or squat, lowering the load won't resolve the issue. Some options might be to spend 6-8 weeks doing a corrective program to "fix your force couples," or maybe you only need to add more hip mobility drills to your warm-up, or maybe you would be able to use front squats or use only single-leg squats and single-leg deads for a while until your mobility and strength improve.

Ok. I've read the force couples article and determined that I have MAJOR posterior tilt issues (I've got all the classic symptoms and posture indicators). (I've skimmed these articles in the past, but never slowed down enough to read them and understand them because I figured it was all way too advanced, and I just wanted to proceed with lifting. I know better now!)

So, I'm going to set about figuring out a program to deal with my PT issues. (Strangely enough, Robertson includes regular DL's in the list of exercises designed to address the issues...

)

With that in mind, do you still recommend starting with Bulletproof Knees, or is there something that might be more focused to deal with PT issues?

For now, I'm going to work on your suggestions here: "If squats don't bother you, then keep up the rest of the program and put single-leg deadlift variations in the deadlift spots. Then write on your training log sheet the mobility work you intend to do, and then do it at the beginning of your workout."

Anyway, thanks again Lisa - I should knock myself in the head for not dealing with this before!

Cynic · 01-08-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa~

Didn't we discuss all this with you last year?

Not only an ecyclopedia of links, but a memory like a steel trap.

Thre4me · 01-11-2008, 07:35 AM

Wow, I came across this thread because I had and still do have major deadlift issues. I should say back issues really. I have a weak lower back and have been bed ridden several times. The most recent was in August. I was trying to progress and go heavier in my lifts and pulled my back out while at the gym. I have been to chiropractors, had xrays etc and was told I have a tilt to my pelvis which there is not much I can do about it and shouldn't worry, it is just they way my body is built

. Reading through the article it seems I have major posterior tilt issues. (which is what the xray showed) I have a continual burning and aching sensation from my lower back across my sacrum. This pain intensifies with deadlifts and sometimes with squats. I have had my form checked on these movements and was told my form was fine. I am thinking that my posterior tilt could be the real issue. I am going to start some of the stretching and see if that helps.

TomK · 02-14-2008, 04:18 PM

Thanks for the advice in this thread, I've added some of these foam roller moves to my post workout plan. Also, I have (working with a PT) added sumo style DL to my workout. My PT would not "train" me in conventional DL - he was firm that my hip imbalance was too extreme to work around. However, after a lot of work on pure form and lifting light weights - I have managed to Sumo DL my body weight (185lbs.) I guess my point here is that once I checked my ego, went back to an empty oly bar, great form and practice - I found a substitute.