Hi All, I've had NROL for a couple months and I just found the forum. I've been looking through the posts and there's a lot to learn here. Everyone seems so helpful.
A quick intro, I'm 40, about 6 foot, 210 pounds, not nearly as lean or muscular as I'd like. My diet's pretty good and clean although I do need to add a little more fruits and veggies. I always was a skinny kid, but now the middle-age office job fat is showing up. I guess I fit into the new lifter catagory. I've lifted on and off for years, but had no idea what I was doing so I had little progress and got frustrated often. Alwyn's programs and all the comments here look very promising indeed.
Now, I just finished the break-in and I'm on my week rest. I'm wondering if, because it being winter, I should start with the Hypertrophy I. It looks to me that a lot of folks here are saying that the Hypertrophy programs make them very hungry and eat more, so it seems to me they fit in the flannel shirt season better. That would save the FL I and II programs for spring when the T-shirts come back out of the closet.
On the other hand, I seem to fit the definition of the Eternal beginner in the book which would perscribe my next stop as Fat Loss city.
So I guess that's my long winded way of asking, would it be less effective to do HT I and II before FL I and II?
To me it seems like the chicken or the egg. Some people might tell you to get a base of strength and muscle before the fat loss, whereas some people will tell you to do the fat loss first. I'm in pretty much the same boat, a little heavier than I would like, but not nearly the muscle size that I would like also. Just remember that if you choose the Hypertrophy that you really need to eat a lot in order for it to build muscle size. Whereas in the fat loss program, you need to eat less. Your goal in fat loss is to lose weight, but still maintain muscle strength.
But, honestly, I would choose the one that looks the most fun to you. I am finishing up Hypertrophy 1 and I was debating which one to start next. I ended up asking my wife, should I lose fat or get bigger muscles? She told me that I didn't need to lose fat (even though I definately need to eventually) and to get bigger musles. So, I am moving on to Hypertrophy 2.
Stick around these forums. I am mostly a lurker, but there are some honest-to-goodness fitness gods that hang around these parts. The fitness gods might not respond to your posts, but I will pretty much guarantee that one of their disciples will.
You can lose fat or gain muscle on either program, depending on your diet. If you add these workouts to a diet that's already solid and rich in protein, you will probably lose some fat because of the extra energy required to do the workouts and then recover from them.
If you add some calories (say, a postworkout shake, if you're not already drinking one after workouts), you'll almost certainly gain muscle.
The wild card is adaptation. If you haven't made significant adaptations to any previous training program, then you're best off doing the Fat Loss programs, which are based on very straightforward linear periodization. That is, you move steadily toward heavier weights with fewer reps. If your body isn't fully adapted to that type of training, you will gain muscle if you give your body enough calories to accomplish that. If you do it in a slight energy deficit (that is, you work out harder without adding calories to your diet), you'll lose fat.
And, of course, it's possible you'll do both, if your body hasn't yet made significant adaptations to training. (The longer you train, the harder it is to do both simultaneously.)
The Hypertrophy programs create a lot of metabolic perturbations -- they really shake things up. That can produce fat loss, if your diet puts you in a slight energy deficit, or muscle gain, with some extra calories.
To tell you the truth, you can even lose fat with the Strength programs, if your body is fully adapted to everything else.
I've told this story a bunch of times, but there might be someone on the boards who hasn't heard it:
When I worked with Owen McKibben on his Cover Model Workout book, he told me that he does pretty high-rep training most of the time, but when he needs to cut for a modeling assignment, he'll shift to heavy weights and low reps. It's the opposite of just about all the traditional advice out there, but it's what works for him.
The wild card is adaptation. If you haven't made significant adaptations to any previous training program, then you're best off doing the Fat Loss programs...
Hi Lou. I had a suspicion that if you posted, you'd say something like that. I remember you making that point a few times in the book. I should have listened the first time, because no, I hadn't made any real adaptations up to now and I do see some progress already even with the break-in program.
I also suspected that there was some kind of underlying periodization progression(say that five times fast!) going on with Alwyn's three programs, one setting the stage for the next, something like the five stage rocket mentioned in the book.
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... when he needs to cut for a modeling assignment, he'll shift to heavy weights and low reps. It's the opposite of just about all the traditional advice out there, but it's what works for him.
Maybe my reasoning is wrong, but that actually makes sense to me. Everyone seems to comment about how heavy lifting makes them hungry all the time. Surely that's their bodies telling them that it's burning more calories.
BTW Lou, I really enjoyed reading NROL. It's a refreshing change from all the other books of this genre at my local franchise book stores. Your casual writing style made it a fun read and I think I might have even learned something! Although, I think I'm going to hate Alwyn... in a good way
If you've never lifted, or lifted off and on, I would go with fat loss I & II, to build up the tendon and ligamints and prime the way for the harder aspects of hypertrophy and/or strength.
You don't want to break into heavy weights, low reps too soon. Your joints, tendons and ligamints will suffer for it.
Yea, that is cool. I'm glad I found this place. I only discovered it when Alwyn casually mentioned it in his Blog.
Lou, it might be nice if you put a link to this forum in the back of your next edition of NROL like Berardi did with his forum in Metobolism Advantage.
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Originally Posted by Cynic
Perhaps to a degree, but I don't think it's sufficient to go from zero, to break-in to the strength programs lock step.
Considering what Lou said and also comparing the FL1 and HT1 programs, I tend to agree.
After not working out all summer, I just don't feel like the break-in was vigorous enough for me, even with intervals of off days, to jump right in to HT1 and get the most benefit for it. Plus I'd like to milk the adaptation factor for all it's worth while I get the chance.
Perhaps to a degree, but I don't think it's sufficient to go from zero, to break-in to the strength programs lock step.
I've done something similar. Doing 8x3 dips with 25lbs and my shoulders were suffereing horribly.
I just didn't have a good lengthy base of hypertrophy.
I was real scared of low reps.. and always thought it was more dangerous for someone who's NOT a beginner.. but always did high (15-20) reps.. that person would be strong enough to have higher low reps, but not used to them. My thinking was that a real beginner would not be strong enough in the low reps to need more than the break-in..
But in view of what you're saying.. I'll change the way I recommend NROL .. always better to be safe in advice
My thinking was that a real beginner would not be strong enough in the low reps to need more than the break-in..
Oh no. It's always possible to exceed your limits. On a one time basis it's a success...continuously it's working against the odds which will come back to haunt you.
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But in view of what you're saying.. I'll change the way I recommend NROL .. always better to be safe in advice
Never a problem. You've been an athlete all your life it sounds. Some of us start from zero.
I found Lou's response here very helpful in "getting off the pot" regarding starting one of the NROL workouts. Had the book for a while, but could not decide what to do. Fat Loss seemed to be the main entry point, but I have been doing a compound movement, 7 or 8 exercise, three or four circuit whole body since June, based in part on Lou's Home Workout Bible (love that book!). So the NROL break in and fat loss programs seemed too close to what I was already doing. On the other hand, I could still stand to lose another 3 to 5 pounds, so I could not decide what to do.
I screwed around with a low rep version of what I was doing for a couple of weeks, but after reading this thread, I have started Hyper I. I will eat about Maint. and hope to both gain a little muscle and lose a little fat. I have only been lifting since June so I should still be able to do both, I hope! I went from 213 lbs to 188 (I am 6'), and am appreciably stronger, so I have made some adaptations to the high rep circuits. Hopefully I am physically ready for something different.
Maybe my reasoning is wrong, but that actually makes sense to me. Everyone seems to comment about how heavy lifting makes them hungry all the time. Surely that's their bodies telling them that it's burning more calories.
Weird, it's the opposite for me. High volume, high-rep training makes me hungry as a horse and overeat.. I thought I did low-rep workouts, but they were containing so many high-rep sets that I was not lifting as heavy as I could.. this dramatically changed when I took out the high rep sets and whew.. I got STRRRRONG!!!
As a side-effect, I also discovered that I am in no way as hungry (for carbs) on low-rep training than on high rep training. This does depend on volume though.
I'm not yet doing NROL (the exercises seem so technical and use too much tricky shoulder stuff) but will be doing Max-Stim from Dan Moore which involves a 20-paused-rep set method. Seemingly high reps but yet, high weights.. high density (lots of reps/time period). It will be interesting to see how it affects appetite. It's the wrong TOM now (i'm female) so the true test will be after a full cycle on that method.
Question about where to start
Linear Mode
