I made a post in the training section kinda regarding this topic, and it didn't generate any responses, so I'll try this section, though not as long-winded of a post.
Basically, have an old shoulder/rotator cuff injury from a few years back from playing tennis, mainly serving with poor form. The injury itself has healed, except that my shoulder is not as strong as I'd like it to be, especially as I play a one-handed backhand. I have also not done any serving for risk of reinjuring my shoulder, since I haven't been able to practice serving and would probably lack form.
I'm just starting FL1 tomorrow, and was wondering what kinda of additional shoulder training I can incorporate into this program, whether it be on the same day after the main workout, or a different day. I had seen mention of a shoulder program around here somewhere, but not sure if that would be done with NROL. My main goal with this additional work is to make my shoulder strong enough to get back into serving come springtime, as well as have more pop in my one-handed backhand.
I saw your post in the training forum and just wasn't sure how to respond. We don't really have enough information on your shoulder to know what to give you. In an effort to give you something, here is part of post Bill Hartman made in the injury forum quite a while back that gives general guidelines for a basic progression of lifts after a shoulder injury. This might give you some direction in designing your own rehab/prehab program. If this doesn't do it for you, then I think asking this in the injury forum or searching the injury forum (even though you are no longer injured) might be your best bet.
Quote:
Here's your don't list until you are asymptomatic:
vertical pressing
horizontal pressing
abduction (lateral raises in any plane)
Dips (never ever do them again)
upright rows (never ever do them again)
Pull-ups/Chin-ups
To do list:
If you can't reach behind your back and touch the opposite shoulder blade stretch the posterior capsule.
External rotation at 0, 45, and 90 degrees of abduction (this is a progression based on symptoms. More abduction as pain decreases)
I's, T's, and Y's (Hughston exercises)
All forms of rowing with emphasis on scapular retraction
Push-up plus
Standing internal rotation with your band
Stretch all internal shoulder rotators (pecs, lats, subscapularis)
Stretch downward scapular rotators (levator scapula, rhomboids)
These represent early rehab exercises.
You would then introduce raises in the scapular plane, first in side-lying and then standing. Then Blackburn's and scapular depression in sitting (like the top few inches of a dip). Then push-ups on the wall and progress downward toward the floor as symptoms allow, Inverted rows, and single leg squats.
Then DB floor presses and cable PNF exercises, board presses, partial DB presses in the scapular plane.
Truth be told you may never be able to do barbell bench presses or overhead presses ever again.
You cannot transition from early rehab exercises to normal strength training. Emphasize high reps like sets of 20-30 through your rehab exercises. Emphasize slow eccentric and controlled concentric.
Lisa, I do appreciate the response. I know that it is difficult to say what would be best for *me* as there aren't really any details about my injury, nor did I really feel like making a huge post about the matter. Basically, I was trying to give some background, but I guess that the question that I'm asking is simpler than I've made it out to be (I've been known to overcomplicate things). I'm just looking for a few exercises that I can tack onto NROL FatLoss programs that would be good for additional shoulder strength. I'm sure that one would be to use cable pulleys and pull across my chest and out to the side, but I'm not sure what others would be (maybe DB cuban press, assuming that's the one where you rotate your shoulder along with the lift?).
That snippet from Bill's suggestions definitely applied to a couple years ago, though the last time I tried dips I could still feel it a little bit on the shoulder, so I'd probably still stay away from these (not sure if NROL calls for them anywhere anyway).
I'll do some searches too through the injury forum to see if I come across any similar cases.
OK, That makes it a bit easier. You described a cable PNF diagonal and that's a great choice. Also, DB raises in the scapular plane (no higher than shoulders, thumb up) would be good. I think doing any type of Y's or T's would be good too. Some of those variations are incline rear delt raises, incline lower trap raises (more of a Y), bentover rear delts raises with db's or cables. You might even try a Tellekinetics side-lying lateral raise (search it, it's a Jerry Telle exercise that's complicated, but very cool). Or side-lying rear delt raises.
Let me know if you need descriptions of any of those.
I was just thinking about the mechanics of the cable pull, and there are two different ways I see it. The first would be essentially like a tennis one-handed backhand (or I guess a woodchopper exercise), where I start with my right hand across my body and low and pull the cable across my body and end up with my right arm extended high and to my right. The other variation would be to keep my right elbow planted at my hip and to simply pull the cable across my body. Should I incorporate both? It seems that the first variation is similar enough to the movement of my tennis swing that it might be helpful, but on the same token the second variation might provide a more accute stimilus.
I've written down a the exercises that you suggested, and plan on incorporating them after some FL1 workouts (using higher reps with less weight, at least for a few weeks to see how things go). The Tellekinetics approach seems to be complicated, though agreed pretty cool. I'll look into that one when I'm looking to add some variation.
The first way you described it is a cable PNF diagonal and the one I'd recommend first. Be sure not to bend and extend at the elbow, but keep your arm straight throughout the movement.
Low Cable PNF Diagonal:
High Cable PNF Diagonal:
The second way you described it is cable external rotation at 0 degrees abduction. External rotation is good too, so you could do both or just the first one.
Thanks for the effort put forth in your replies Lisa. I think I'll start doing some of these after FL1-A today and see how they go. I take it from your comment about the latter exersice being an external one that I should be focusing on interal shoulder exercises? I recall reading that most people tend to have one of these more trained than the other (especially in the case of something like tennis), so I'll assume that this is the case with me.
Tennis would train internal shoulder rotation, as would too much bench pressing and not enough horizontal back work. Most people have too much internal rotation strength and need to train external rotation.
If that's confusing, think of it like this. With you arms down at your sides, when you turn your palm to the back (hands pronated) that's internal rotation of the shoulder (imagine the humerous [your upper arm bone] rotating in the shoulder joint). When you turn your palms to the front (hands supinated), that's external rotation of the shoulder. Get it?
So, no, I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't do external rotation. You probably should be focusing on external rotation! I just meant that it's more of shoulder health movement not a strength movement. You will never load up an external rotation like you would an overhead press or other big movement. The cable PNF's fall into the shoulder health category too, so they're not going to be really heavy, but they'll probably be heavier than the ER's. I guess I just meant that if you are only going to do one of them, do the PNF's. If you've got time, do both.
Lisa, as always, has given good advice. My 2 cents for what it's worth is to check out Eric Cressey's articles on T-Nation if you haven't already. He's got 3 really good articles over there that will probably help out and get you going in the right direction.
A couple of my favorte shoulder exercises to do as pre-hab (think that's what people are calling them) are the cable things that Lisa posted about, Poor Man Shoulder Horns and Cuban Presses with DB's (these are killer so go light). I usually try and do these on my off days if I have the time (watching TV as well).
Hopefully you are able to work something out that will get you going in the right direction.
Thanks guys. I definitely have some good information to work off of. I've done DB cuban presses in the past, and I agree that they are killer (so I'll make sure to do them). I think I'm going to try to do these exercises two times a week as supplementary exercises, perhaps do 3x15s or such of lighter weights.
You will be pleasantly suprised as you work through NROL. A lot of the routines address the imbalances that can cause these shoulder problems.
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NROL and Shoulder/Rotator Cuff Training
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