The traditional MA warm ups may be considered, especially in light of "current" trends in the fitness industry, to have some "high risk/low return" stretches and movements in their routines. I wonder what everyone thinks of that. DO you think this is true?
Chris C- do you do these in your school? How do you feel about the traditional MA warm up in light of the extensive reading you have done about stretching?
Chris B- As a CSCS, how do you feel when you attend an MA session and they do what you consider to be a high risk / low return warm up or stretch activity?
Sorry to single you guys out but I know you both know your stuff. Of course I hope to hear from others a swell, I just don't know you well enough to ask you a specific individual question.
Or am I babbling on about nothing?
Cheers
Peter
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Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
I definitely think the warmups in our school (and most schools I've seen) are not in touch with current recommendations. However, since it's not my dojo, I just do it anyway, as tradition seems to trump all at this point. Sometimes someone adds in some dynamic stretches, but that's rare...
I have trained in a few grappling and MMA schools, and these types of programs, in my experience, tend to include pretty good warm-ups. Usually a combination of general warm-up activities to get the blood moving and elevate body temperature (bodyweight exercises, dynamic stretching, ring circles and jogging, etc.), sport-specific warm-up drills (shadow boxing, "shrimping" drills, step-outs, shoots), and some static stretching. Some people may argue about static stretching, but I think that in a martial arts context, when integrated with a dynamic warm-up, some static stretching is desirable.
It's been more than a decade since I trained in a "traditional" karate class, and I really don't remember much about the warm-up. I know we did a lot of static stretching and push-ups, but I don't recall what else.
Pete, what kind of stretching in particular are you referring too.
When I was training in Japan we did some pretty stupid stretching as a part of warm-ups and I paid for it with the first of a few knee injuries.
I certainly don't do any ballistic stretching, nor would I recommend anyone do it as part of a warm-up. Some static stretching is fine in my opinion, but I'd do dynamic work first.
My grappling club always did dynamic warmups and drills before static stretching, which is a good route to go in my opinion.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Things that came to mind is that there is ballistic "type" stretching. It does not actually have to ballistic but is done that (not by me ). Toes your toes... instructor: 1,2,3,4 - class 5,6,7,8, and everyone is bobbing for apples.
The "hurdler's stretch" is another high risk stretch that come to mind (though we don't do them- but I have seen them quite a bit in MA warm ups...
When have one sensei who is a stretching specialist and we never do that when that person is doing the warm up / stretch. (one key difference in our approach is that we do the stretching after warm up and it is more of the warm than actual streching. (we are expected to look after our on flexibility. I think the instructors feel that they have to do the "old" kihon" stretching routines...
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Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
I think the instructors feel that they have to do the "old" kihon" stretching routines...
Probably it. Try to fake the apple bobbing if you can.
I wish more would recognize that the "traditional" arts are never static but have evolved alot even over just the past 50 years. I know that founders of Okinawan Karate modified the teachings as they were in China, as have practices changed since then.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Our warmups consist mainly of getting the blood pumping...jumping jacks, some core work and then use some easy kihon kata (no kicking) to continue the warmup. I always hated the ballistic stretches, but have learned the value of some static stretching after breaking a sweat. We warm up even more gently in our women's only class, taking a bit more time. We tend to incorporate more yoga stretches and the like.
I vary it up. Some of the usual stuff done in our system and some more-contemporary dynamic work. I often vary it by class: a couple of traditional classes, a couple of "unique, newer stuff" ones. However, our "traditional" is quite good; it includes some dynamic work, and the static work is often held for cycles of not even 10 seconds, say in series of repeating, alternating sides 8 counts. So, it's half dynamic, I suppose. It's less based on long standing tradition, I think, than on what our Korean Great Grand Master found useful in his career, which included military and competition activity.
I tend to think that as long as nothing is done to a degree that it might injure (more so for beginners or hard driving younger brown belts -- or the psychological equivalent in arts with no belts LOL) it's all good. It all has some value, and can be supplemented.
Even the static stretching is OK, I think. The main downside of the static is any effect on, say, fast action immediately following in competition. In class, it could be saved for the end of class as a cool down of sorts, but it works OK on the front end; I make sure people are warm first, or emphasize to not push it; then, doing it in shorter time cycles almost makes it dynamic, anyway.
So, it's al good in the hood. Those of us in more traditional arts are in them at least partly for that tradition. (Granted, even a newer MMA school/system may, in essence, develop its own traditions, but you know what I mean). Do the "traditional" stuff, just do it smartly (eg, not at extreme ranges), and supplement as needed.
EDIT: BTW, this post may constitute what seems to have become my bimonthly JP check in. lol
Part of the problem is that martial arts and fitness aren't the same thing. Sure, some of the traditional warmups are outdated perhaps but others are there for a reason, even if the reason doesn't make sense by current exercise science standards. I wouldn't go throwing out stuff without a good reason.
Having said that, I myself have included a lot of stuff like planks, side planks, etc in the warmup for the taichi class that i teach. Many of those movements are very beneficial to beginning taichi players. But the static stretching is also very useful for taichi even if dynmaic stretching is in vogue right now.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Part of the problem is that martial arts and fitness aren't the same thing. Sure, some of the traditional warmups are outdated perhaps but others are there for a reason, even if the reason doesn't make sense by current exercise science standards. I wouldn't go throwing out stuff without a good reason.
Having said that, I myself have included a lot of stuff like planks, side planks, etc in the warmup for the taichi class that i teach. Many of those movements are very beneficial to beginning taichi players. But the static stretching is also very useful for taichi even if dynmaic stretching is in vogue right now.
In case you guys don't know Dave runs a gym in Taiwan, and is quite experienced in Chinese internal martial arts.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
In case you guys don't know Dave runs a gym in Taiwan, and is quite experienced in Chinese internal martial arts.
Thanks for the plug!
I found JPF by searching for info on the NASM cert. There's more info on JPF about the cert than anywhere else. Weird, eh?
I came to these conclusions about the differences in the trainings after going through a Tom Kurz phase where I was enamored with dynamic stretching and warmups. The whole "Stretching Scientifically" thing.
He and others are correct that dynamic warmups and stretching are missing from most MA schools and they should be included. I agree with that. But after doing a lot of that type of stretching, I came to the conclusion that traditional static stretching and some of the traditional warmups also had a lot to offer a student learning taijiquan, the main art that I teach.
For example, a lot of my beginning students are de-conditioned so dynamic stretching and warmups are almost dangerous for them. I want them to slow down and hold corrective static stretches along with doing body weight squats and horse stance for time.
Combining the traditional (horse stance and static stretching) with more modern strengthening exercises (planks, lunges, body weight squats) has given me the best results so far. Slow and easy builds them up faster.
I save dynamic stretching and warmups for later when my students show more motor control.
Again, thanks for the warm welcome. I hope that explanation made sense.
I don't train anyone now in MA, but for deconditioned fitness clients I've found the need to use static stretches in the warmup because some simply can't do the dynamic movements properly. The static work has no negative impact on their training.
Anyway, hope you stick around JP's.
Are you looking at getting a cert?
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Yeah, I should be taking my NASM cert test within two weeks. NASM is really good stuff because their emphasis on balance, stability, and proprioception matches a lot that we do in taichi. And the pre-hab is needed before people do taichi anyway, just what NASM recommends. So NASM's OPT model fits the needs of my taichi students as well as the clients more interested in getting in shape. I can use the OPT model to transition clinets into and out of taichi, weightlifting, KBs, or anything else they want to do. It's a great paradigm.
I agree with you on the need for static work first. If they can't do some static work, we definitely don't want them doing something dynamic.
BTW, i would even do foam roller and SMR with taiji or other MA students if I could. Most everyone that walks in my door for any reason needs it.
That makes perfect sense. With my initial post post (as Chris picked up on) I was thinking especially of ballistic stretching (which I see a lot in Japan). Most of the people I see are "just going through the motions, I think because "it has always been that way.
I was also thinking about to some degree - "high risk" stretches (such as hurdler stretches) which I think are quite common in the "tradition MA stable of stretches. I thought it would make an interesting topic of discussion.
(it was not so much a "do you think ballistic stretches are bad thing - rather that a lot of people still do them, what do you think about that)
Cheers
peter
Cheers
Peter
__________________
Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
...With my initial post post (as Chris picked up on) I was thinking especially of ballistic stretching (which I see a lot in Japan). Most of the people I see are "just going through the motions, I think because "it has always been that way.
So you were thinking ballistic vs. "modern" stretching and I was thinking dynamic vs. static. The dynamic vs. static debate is the only one I have heard about lately but maybe I am reading Kurz too much.
One mistake I see Kurz and others who criticize traditional methods making is to not take context into account. Training Olympic TKD athletes is not the same as training recreational and kids TKD, etc.
For example, Kurz shot his second video on no-warmup splits and kicking in a typical TKD school for some reason. On his forum, he admitted being disappointed with the people in the school because none of them "got" what he said about stretching. But they were just recreational players and kids. What he was offering was WAY beyond what they needed.
Here they are in the background:
So I take blanket statements about stretching in MA with a grain of salt. Some things may genuinely be bad or they may just not fit the purposes of the group that someone has in mind.
Darn, I don't know how he does that. I need a woman on each leg for balance. Oh, well, he must be more advanced than me.
Ballistic, static, dynamic . . . they can all work and all have their place. Context (population, situation) and proper execution would be key factors, it seems. Do what helps and don't do something in such a way as to get hurt.
Traditional MA warm ups
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