Even if his cornerman MEANT to grease him up, you think he would do it a bit better. The spots he was rubbing wouldn't benefit a fighter at all. People were bitching about it saying "thats how he got passed his guard" ...actually guard is held on the sides and if they wrap their legs around their opponent it's usually trying to get a triangle (which is high enough to avoid it) or they would clinch their legs around their lower back which is way clear of the "vaselined" area. There really isn't any way that small amount of vaseline (even if it was lots) in that area would help at all. Simple as that.
I'm sorry but that's not correct. BJ likes to work from what's called a high guard, not the typical guard that you are referring to. Try some BJJ classes and you'll come to a different conclusion about guard and the vaseline thing. In a high guard you have your legs wrapped up higher around your opponents shoulders. Watch BJ's past fights (like his second fight against Matt Hughes) and you'll see this. The vaseline on the shoulders and upper back would make moves like a high guard, a triangle, and even a gogoplata harder. When your opponent is slippery it's harder to control them with your legs, which BJ is VERY well known for being good at. Not to mention when it spreads with the movement and sweat it makes it can make it harder to go for other submissions as well.
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Yeah I do see your point here as well...but he just doesn't seem the type to cheat. Also, I feel like it would be a pattern then...they'd have been doing it for other fights too?
He doesn't seem like it. But that doesn't mean he doesn't. I'm sure there are por athletes you've admired that have taken steroids whether you realized it or not. It's the sad truth of the world we live in.
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I just don't want to believe he cheated. He's too good for that!!
I don't either. Like I said, next to Fedor, GSP is my favorite fighter (BJ is probably 3rd among active fighters) so I hope it's all just a mistake. But I'm also not going to ignore or downplay the evidence just because it puts a favorite fighter's camp into question.
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To cite other fights is all well and good but...HE's never been accused before. And the other info was also unfounded. I dunno...I think the other thing that throws me is that I just don't have as much admiration for Penn's entire camp as for GSP's. So it colors my perception of the whole issue!
Jackson's camp has been accused of this before. I know Huerta has (who I'm also a fan of). So has Rashad from what I hear. I know Jason "Mayhem" Miller accused GSP of being greased before. I don't put much weight in what he says because, well, he's Mayhem Miller. lol Still, it's just another piece to look at with what others are saying. A lot of people don't have as much admiration for Penn's camp. Penn is a loud mouth, especially compared to GSP. If you want to take that into consideration that's cool, but look at it with the other evidence. Even if GSP hadn't been accused before, he also hasn't fought many guys who are without a doubt better in the submission game than he is, like BJ (except the time he fought BJ lol).
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Originally Posted by sidonia
I'm gonna hafta agree here.
You can agree with ZeeCanuck if you want, but I don't think he's taken a BJJ class or he'd know the difference between a guard and a high guard.
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"Is there no standard anymore?" - Walk, Pantera
Forgive my ignorance about the high guard versus regular guard, but from my (very) limited knowledge it appeared that once you break the legs open, there's not much contact between the person on top's back and the person underneath? Especially when you then switch to side control like GSP was doing? Is that wrong???
Plus...from what I could see (again, limited knowledge here) GSP was so damn fast getting side control...there wasn't much BJ could've done anyway...lol
Big deal. If BJ wants to get another beating then it appears GSP is willing to oblige.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
The vaseline wouldnt help a triangle or high guard very much considering it was rubbed in on the middle of this shoulder blades. Usually on this point of the back there is very little contact even in high guard. I know what high guard is and usually (depending on how the person locks their legs, there will be no contact at all in the area. I don't know any kind of triangle that goes inbetween the shoulder blades.
I tried to find a picture of high guard but I gave up, google failed me.. but anyway. Unless the fighter is close enough that the defenders leg is completely horizontal across the back and his other leg is locking his foot down like a triangle then that MIGHT make a difference but I doubt you would be able to tell(espescially with how sweaty the fighters are).
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Forgive my ignorance about the high guard versus regular guard, but from my (very) limited knowledge it appeared that once you break the legs open, there's not much contact between the person on top's back and the person underneath? Especially when you then switch to side control like GSP was doing? Is that wrong???
Plus...from what I could see (again, limited knowledge here) GSP was so damn fast getting side control...there wasn't much BJ could've done anyway...lol
You're not really wrong if the legs are broken. If the legs aren't crossed it's easier to get out of guard into side control. But if someone is slippery it's harder to control them with your legs (even when crossed) which is a lot of what the guard is about. But you're also forgetting the shoulders and traps and about the lubricant spreading around the body. It's not going to just stay in one place. I'm not a BJJ master or anything. I've only had 6 months of BJJ and 6 months of Judo (but more in other arts), though I'm starting to get back into BJJ again with more time. Everyone I know that has a lot of experience in submissions has said what problems some vaseline can cause.
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Originally Posted by kuri
Big deal. If BJ wants to get another beating then it appears GSP is willing to oblige.
Hey, you 've known me as long as I've been on these boards and you know I'm as big a fan of GSP as you are. But I think it should be looked into. Not to turn the fight into a NC or anything but they should at least make sure "accidents" like that don't happen again. A rematch would be a waste of time imo because BJ looked to me like he would've lost anyway.
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Originally Posted by ZeeCanuck
The vaseline wouldnt help a triangle or high guard very much considering it was rubbed in on the middle of this shoulder blades. Usually on this point of the back there is very little contact even in high guard. I know what high guard is and usually (depending on how the person locks their legs, there will be no contact at all in the area. I don't know any kind of triangle that goes inbetween the shoulder blades.
I tried to find a picture of high guard but I gave up, google failed me.. but anyway. Unless the fighter is close enough that the defenders leg is completely horizontal across the back and his other leg is locking his foot down like a triangle then that MIGHT make a difference but I doubt you would be able to tell(espescially with how sweaty the fighters are).
Again, I bleieve you're incorrect. They rubbed his traps and deltoids too. Plus, while grappling it can easily spread.
(Warning: Sidonia try to control yourself when you see the gifs lol)
There are other images out there like these but I just figured I'd post a few.
Regardless, it could definitely make it harder to work from the bottom to get submissions. You'd lose a lot of your ability to control with your legs. Here's a quick video clip of high guard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsNtHP4krYc
BJ also likes to work from mission control which could also be more difficult against someone with a lubricant on their back and shoulders.
I guess we'll see if this turns out to be anything or not.
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"Is there no standard anymore?" - Walk, Pantera
Honestly, I have no interest in this fight again. I'd rather see them defend their titles. It's not fair to alves and florian who would have to wait forever if they fought again.
Well if GSP gets by Alves, I wouldn't mind him going up against Anderson. I dont' think he would win given the huge size/reach advantage but it would be interesting.
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