I'd like to take some classes if I can find a good instructor close by.
I've done 3 months of kung fu, 1 month of tai chi, and taken only 2 grappling classes.
I don't want to break bones, I just want to stun the heck out of them, without giving them any injury that won't heal within 1 week.
I also want it to be realistic as a self defense towards all types of people, big or small.
I'd like to find something that I could do twice a week and progress to where I had more confidence and felt a little more safe in new orleans, in a period of 6 months.
Do most fights seriously end up on the ground? Should I just train grappling? Judo? Ju jitsu? Hapkido? Muy Thai?
I mean, MMA isn't really realistic as far as street because I have to be able to defend against nut kicks and eye gouges and biting.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
I will resist the urge to suggest that you learn it on you own.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
I don't want to break bones, I just want to stun the heck out of them, without giving them any injury that won't heal within 1 week.
I also want it to be realistic as a self defense towards all types of people, big or small.
I think that what you seek can be found in almost any martial art (though more so in others) in that it is more how you CHOOSE to use your ability.
"Stunning" people is not really a martial art technique, you are likely to have to choose between a joint lock or a strike. Either can be "violent" or less violent.
FOr example, aikido is "non violent" and if you watch it you will see a sensei tossing students around like rag dolls and no one getting hurt. Some people have in fact called it silly because it is not realistic, because students roll with the joint locks (it looks like the teacher touches them and the flip themselves to ground). The reality is if they do not do that, they will end up with, at best, torn ligaments, or at worst, a joint broken backwards.
So using this "nonviolent" MA, you could ease someone to the ground or you could seriously hurt someone depending on your skill level.
Strikes are similar. A punch is a punch. Depends whether you do it to the throat, the temple, the ribs, or the solar plexus. A kick downward into a knee is not that different from a kick to a pressure point above the knee to the side. The first could cripple you the second will make you limp for a week.
I think with your very limited MA experience, you have not developed enough skill to internalize this. Your question also reflects this. You suggest that MMA is no good because it does not allow eye gouging; but yet you do not want to injure your supposed opponent. If someone is gouging your eyes, you are in very real danger. My particular MA uses both "soft" and "hard" and is philosophically defense oriented. I was recently being shown some knife defense techniques by a 8th dan sensei. He said that if you being attacked by someone with a knife you need to try and kill the person, or you will end up dead.
If someone is gouging your eyes, as you suggest, you need to respond with a high level of violence. If you are in that kind of situation it is not "comic book" kung fu. Some WILL be injured, and seriously injured. You want to be sure that someone is NOT you.
I would suggest to get to a decent skill level you would need to study and train for at least three years. Then you might find that if these imaginary "bar fights" actually occur in real life, you will do what most skilled and experienced fighters do. That is: apologize, and walk away.
__________________
Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
I understand what you're asking… but I don't think you know what you're really talking about. And 3 months of kung-fu and a smattering of other random classes isn't really any experience, other than learning to listen and understand what the given art form is about, kinda.
Non-violence is in the heart. And not all situations can be resolved by simply "stunning" someone into submission. They are MARTIAL arts, after all. Or go get a can of pepper spray and a taser.
Adam, I'm not sure but I'd recommend high-violence- lots more fun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
I'd like to take some classes if I can find a good instructor close by.
I've done 3 months of kung fu, 1 month of tai chi, and taken only 2 grappling classes.
I don't want to break bones, I just want to stun the heck out of them, without giving them any injury that won't heal within 1 week.
I also want it to be realistic as a self defense towards all types of people, big or small.
I'd like to find something that I could do twice a week and progress to where I had more confidence and felt a little more safe in new orleans, in a period of 6 months.
Do most fights seriously end up on the ground? Should I just train grappling? Judo? Ju jitsu? Hapkido? Muy Thai?
I mean, MMA isn't really realistic as far as street because I have to be able to defend against nut kicks and eye gouges and biting.
__________________
Charles Staley, B.Sc., MSS The Relentless Pursuit Of New Personal Records™ http://Www.CharlesStaley.com
800-519-2492
"It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."
I think Pete and Aoife both said it very well. You may not have a choice about "stunning" someone - and it takes a LOT of experience to be able to make that kind of choice between, for example, destroying a knee versus hitting 2" higher and just making them limp. Then put that in an adrenaline-fueled "real life" scenario and all bets are out the window.
Learn to defend yourself, but first learn to avoid a fight. As a result of real martial arts training, the more you feel able to really defend yourself, the less you'll want or need to prove that you can. Walking away is ALWAYS the first and best choice. Fighting is only an option when there is no possible way to avoid a physical fight.
And yes, in real life, most fights end up on the ground. But you have to survive the part that gets you there in the first few moments.
Ok yall. I just learned a few things. One Diamond Pete you definitely opened up my eyes with your description of a strike and a joint lock, and how it can either be violent or less so. AND LMAO at your first comment. HAHAHA Awesome.
As far as killing people. I hope I do what's right when the time comes. I just want to be able to be a little less worried while walking around, and also be able to intervene if I ever need to, although, I admit, that the obsessive compulsion to intervene is very close to my need to prove myself, validate, and win the love of others. So, you are right, Aoife, non violence is in the heart, and I'm aware of how I should be, but until I reach excellence and the level of humbleness I want, I'd really rather be armed with the ability to defend myself, against injury or just, I hate to say it, but injured pride, yet my end goal remains solid; the goal to someday be truly humble, is why I ask for a non violent way, to protect myself, yes, but to also vent. So okay fine I admit it's a violent urge. Damnit, but I still don't want to hurt anyone, too much.
Bytsi, what you say about the placement of a kick, like above the knee to make them limp, rather than at the knee. That is the control I want. I want to be able to do both, depending on the situation.
If 8 people are coming at me with knives, obviously it will use up too much of my energy to put them all down in less violent (less injuresome) ways.
LOL at rex kwon do.
Diamond Pete. What MA are you in? I want someone that can teach hard and soft as well. Do I need to take ground classes seperately as well?
3 years? That's a fantastic time frame. Thank you. Nothing to do but to do it right?
If 8 people are coming at you with knives then A: You are fucked B: You are hanging out in the wrong places. Re-evaluate your lifestyle.
Once during class an Escrima teacher told us these techniques are all well and good but if you are walking around in an area where you need to use them then change that aspect of your life.
But just remember - violence solves everything.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
we had this discussion awhile back - and it makes an interesting distinction between learning self-defense (by definition violent) skills to survive and learning a martial art
Ok yall. I just learned a few things. One Diamond Pete you definitely opened up my eyes with your description of a strike and a joint lock, and how it can either be violent or less so.
As far as killing people.
For the record, the "killing people" was to illustrate the false illusion that many people get from the term self-defense. If some one pulled a knife on me, I would give him my wallet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
Diamond Pete. What MA are you in? I want someone that can teach hard and soft as well.
I study Shorinji Kempo (SK). Here is some are some clips from an old BBC documentary. It is a bit dated in that it tries to make MA more mysterious than it is. It also presents SK as "cultish and a political force in Japan which is laughable.
Do I need to take ground classes seperately as well?
Not really sure what these "ground classes mean. I am not into MMA, and it is a "sport" so what would constitute ground work is very different.
Most fights "end up on the ground"- but that is because most people fighting "can't" or fight with the strategy to go to the ground (or at least in ways that will lead to it going to the ground-for example the grab the shirt with left hand and wail about with right- of course they will end up on the ground. Unless you are very big (have mass) and strong, IMO, the last pace you want to be is on the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
3 years? That's a fantastic time frame. Thank you. Nothing to do but to do it right?
ANd that will get you the basics. I think that 3 x week or so at three years- you will have the basic moves down enough to protect yourself. But that does not make you bruce lee.
Cheers
Peter
__________________
Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
Thanks for that link Lisa, the video definitely explained how violence is a tool of survival in asocial situations, and can be looked at as seperate from social stigmas.
Peter I watched only the first video so far, and it was awesome. At the beginning I can see how it looked mysterious, but if people watch it the whole way through, it's obvious, especially when they talk about how people should strive for excellence and show their symbol of fruitfullness, that it isn't a cultish thing at all. Like the video Lisa showed me, competition is somewhat removed by the temple way of training, which is awesome. Are you training at the temple now? I'll definitely watch the other videos tonight or tomorrow.
I notice their strikes look very effective. Do you think they would be effective against a 300 pound boxer? I'd like your opinion on that. Also, you said that the ground is the last place you want to end up. Do you feel that the chances of ending up on the ground as a martial artist are very slim? Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it.
Again, if you are fighting 300 lb boxers then A: You are fucked and B: There is something wrong with your life.
Chances are in a fight you will end up on the ground, unless you are a good grappler and know how to avoid it. Either way better know what to do.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
It is a bit dated in that it tries to make MA more mysterious than it is. It also presents SK as "cultish and a political force in Japan which is laughable.
Peter
Ha! You would say that! Inscrutable and politically duplicitous!
__________________
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
It's not that I will be in bad situations. I want to be a hero. I want to rescue the girl, save the day, and be respected.
I think one of you said it correct, this is a martial ART, which includes appreciation of life in all aspects. As far as self defense, thats a different story, and I'm guessing martial arts classes are somewhat different than self defense classes. Thank you all and I will keep you updated on what classes I decide to do. Anyone else in the same boat?
Self defense classes would teach you things like using your keys in hand (sticking out between fingers) when throwing punches to the face. Self defense is not for being a hero. Self defense is for saving your life, not getting raped, and trying to make it out of a situation alive that otherwise you can't. Self defense is for after you give over your purse and the guy wants to toss you down, strangle, beat, and rape you, and then if you're lucky leave your for dead rather than slit your throat for seeing his face. THAT is what self defense is for.
At the beginning I can see how it looked mysterious, but if people watch it the whole way through, it's obvious, especially when they talk about how people should strive for excellence and show their symbol of fruitfullness, that it isn't a cultish thing at all.
The cultish and mysterious part is very much a part of the time when BBc made the documentary and the "mystic of Asia" was a sell. many people from the west are put off by the use of the "MANJI" ( it looks like a backwards swastika). the manji has been in use for thousands of years and has NO connection to the Nazis. However, as Shorinji Kempo (SK) expanded overseas, the found that many people mistakenly took the manji for a swastika. I think that it is a testament to the progressive and and forward thinking of the organization that ghey decided to stop using he manji and created a new logo (eventhough the symbol pre-dates the Nazis by 2000 years and is a common site at temples in India, Japan and China).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
ALike the video Lisa showed me, competition is somewhat removed by the temple way of training, which is awesome. Are you training at the temple now? I'll definitely watch the other videos tonight or tomorrow.
There is an emphasis on working together and pulling each other up, instead of trying to defeat each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
Are you training at the temple now?
The "temple" you see in the viddys is the World HQ (about 40 km from me). Though it has a "temple" on the grounds, it is not a temple per say. SK has seperated the religious aspects form the MA aspects. I do not train there . i train at a nearby doin. I have been to the HQ (did my 1st dan test there) and I will be going there next year for special 1st - 2nd dan course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
I notice their strikes look very effective. Do you think they would be effective against a 300 pound boxer? I'd like your opinion on that.
I suppose they would be if thrown by one of the guys on the video. But actually, SK relies on accuracy and hitting the "right spot", not on power. That being said, the KEY point is-no one in their right mind would take on a 300 lb boxer. MAs do not make you superman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
Also, you said that the ground is the last place you want to end up.
Everyone needs to "figure out " their own strengths, etc. I am 5'7" and 145 lbs. Anything on the ground - I am in trouble. Too many people underestimate the difference the MASS makes in a fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Welch
Do you feel that the chances of ending up on the ground as a martial artist are very slim?
YES. Because the chances of me actually getting into a fight are very very very slim. I do not do MA for fighting (though if I were assaulted, it might be helpful). I never been in a situation where a fight could not have been avoided. I think this is true for most people. I think you need to get a different perspective on MA.
Cheers
Peter
__________________
Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
If 8 people are coming at you with knives then A: You are fucked B: You are hanging out in the wrong places. Re-evaluate your lifestyle.
Once during class an Escrima teacher told us these techniques are all well and good but if you are walking around in an area where you need to use them then change that aspect of your life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuri
Again, if you are fighting 300 lb boxers then A: You are fucked and B: There is something wrong with your life.
Thank you, Chris. You saved me a longer post. Of course, that's the same answer I give to folks who discredit non-MMA arts because they feel they won't be as immediately effective on the street.
I'm happy; I get the best of two (or three) worlds: traditional patterns and protocols, along with eye gounges, throat strikes, elbow breaks and all the fun rest. Granted, there's no groundwork, but I've been working on the "they may be taking me to the ground, but I've got my thumbs/fingers shoved deeply into their eye sockets" counter.
Along the lines of this thread ... I am looking to pursue some martial art training in the first half of this next year ... and I really don't have any idea about what style to pursue. Local to me, there is a MMA place that I have heard great things about from several people. There is also a Karate place in town and a Taikwondo/Judo/Hapkido place. There is an Aikido/Kenpo place in the next town over that is not too far away.
For a true beginner (other than cardio DVDs of "kickboxing" have never done any martial art stuff) who is athletic but "old" (40) is there a style that would be best suited for me?
Thanks!
__________________
Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
Along the lines of this thread ... I am looking to pursue some martial art training in the first half of this next year ... and I really don't have any idea about what style to pursue. Local to me, there is a MMA place that I have heard great things about from several people. There is also a Karate place in town and a Taikwondo/Judo/Hapkido place. There is an Aikido/Kenpo place in the next town over that is not too far away.
For a true beginner (other than cardio DVDs of "kickboxing" have never done any martial art stuff) who is athletic but "old" (40) is there a style that would be best suited for me?
Thanks!
Depends on what you want to gain from it.
Do you want to compete?
At what level and in what (forms, point fighting, judo matches, cage)?
Are you looking for more self defense oriented? Sport/fitness? Mind/body?
I'd suggest observing classes at each and talking to the head instructor too. How much does the head instructor teach (vs other instuctors) and if others teach, how qualified are they? Do you like their style?
How quickly do people progress through belts, and how often do they fail belt tests (failing is good - when everyone passes, there are no standards and it's a belt-mill)... do they promise a black belt to everyone (bad), or any other "guarantee" of progress?
Are there other adults and/or adult only classes - and do you prefer those or a more family-type atmosphere?
How strenuous are the classes, and do they do full contact, throws / falls? Lots of things you can check out, but observing a few classes and asking a few basic questions should give you a feel of the different places...
I'd like to take some classes if I can find a good instructor close by.
I've done 3 months of kung fu, 1 month of tai chi, and taken only 2 grappling classes.
I don't want to break bones, I just want to stun the heck out of them, without giving them any injury that won't heal within 1 week.
I also want it to be realistic as a self defense towards all types of people, big or small.
I'd like to find something that I could do twice a week progress to where I had more confidence and felt a little more safe in new orleans, in a period of 6 months.
Do most fights seriously end up on the ground? Should I just train grappling? Judo? Ju jitsu? Hapkido? Muy Thai?
I mean, MMA isn't really realistic as far as street because I have to be able to defend against nut kicks and eye gouges and biting.
In six months at 2 times a week for the results your looking: your best bet would be to take a self defense oriented class that will teach you how to use pepper spray or a taser (depending on the legality of carrying them in your area). Those are two options that you can learn in fairly short time and both are relatively non-lethal. Combine this with learning how to run and you'll be ok.
On the non-weapons level I'd suggest taking a self defense oriented class that teaches you to hit the person quick combined with getting out of the situation (i.e. running). This might involve hurting the person to various degrees.
Anything else is going to involve more then 6 months and/or will probably involve causing some type of damage to the other person that will take longer then a week to heal.
Even training for a long time wont allow you to end every self defense encounter with the other person not getting hurt, what it should do is give you a continnuum of possible responses to choose from, allowing you to pick the least violent to end the situation (which wont always involve not hurting the other person).
Along the lines of this thread ... I am looking to pursue some martial art training in the first half of this next year ... and I really don't have any idea about what style to pursue. Local to me, there is a MMA place that I have heard great things about from several people. There is also a Karate place in town and a Taikwondo/Judo/Hapkido place. There is an Aikido/Kenpo place in the next town over that is not too far away.
For a true beginner (other than cardio DVDs of "kickboxing" have never done any martial art stuff) who is athletic but "old" (40) is there a style that would be best suited for me?
Thanks!
I'd suggest that you visit all the places around you, watch a class, and talk to the instructors. The quality of the instructor and the type of class they offer is probably going to be more important then picking one style over another. If you have specific goals watch the class and talk to the instructor about them. If you interest is in fitness, does it look like they are getting a work out? If your interested in self defense, does what they are doing look like it would actually work against a real attack? Does it look like something you'd enjoy doing? I know I wouldn't enjoy doing high kicks, so something like Tae kwon do probably isn't for me, but it might appeal to you.
Along the lines of this thread ... I am looking to pursue some martial art training in the first half of this next year ... and I really don't have any idea about what style to pursue. Local to me, there is a MMA place that I have heard great things about from several people. There is also a Karate place in town and a Taikwondo/Judo/Hapkido place. There is an Aikido/Kenpo place in the next town over that is not too far away.
For a true beginner (other than cardio DVDs of "kickboxing" have never done any martial art stuff) who is athletic but "old" (40) is there a style that would be best suited for me?
Thanks!
Hi Julie
I think that you are asking the wrong question. You should not be looking at what style is uited to you but rather what attracts you. You are in good shape and should be able to make progress at whatever you do, so make it something that "grabs" you- Kool! I want to do this.
If you walked into a gym and said the same thing,
Quote:
For a true beginner (other than cardio DVDs of "arnold" have never done any weightlifting) who is athletic but "old" (40) is there a style that would be best suited for me?
I guarantee you, you would be in the corner with the pink barbells. If you approach MA or anything this way, you will end up with a poor choice. GO into a few places and say- hey this kicks ass, and I want to do it! This instructor is kool and qualified, I trust him/her. Then you will have chosen the right MA. As much as people like to compare and have imaginary MA fight (Bruce Lee could take the Hulk) there is not that much difference between them. (if you get into sport MA, i think there is a bigger difference) Basically, bodies are all the same and they only can move certain ways.
cheers
Peter
__________________
Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
I find it humorous that people could think that a self-defense class could make them competent enough to not only defend themselves from hardened criminals, but also, choose the level of damage they want to inflict.
I find it humorous that people could think that a self-defense class could make them competent enough to not only defend themselves from hardened criminals, but also, choose the level of damage they want to inflict.
It's not so much choosing the level of damage, but using the appropriate level of damage for the threat and circumstances. Not every circumstance is going to involve a hardened criminal nor is it going to necesitate a lethal response. If your at a party and someone is falling over drunk and tries to punch you then your going to use a different level of response then if someone is trying to mug you on the street at night. Although I do agree that the OP's expectations are a little unrealistic.
At what level and in what (forms, point fighting, judo matches, cage)?
Are you looking for more self defense oriented? Sport/fitness? Mind/body?
No real interest in competing I don't think ... I'd like to be able to defend myself from all the criminals roaming around rural northwestern Connecticut (that was a joke!) ... more for the physicality of it, the sport ... the stress release ... and to do something physical that is more goal oriented when I am done with fat loss (sometime this early spring). Maybe something I would like to get my kids into at some point, and do with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytsi
I'd suggest observing classes at each and talking to the head instructor too. How much does the head instructor teach (vs other instuctors) and if others teach, how qualified are they? Do you like their style?
How quickly do people progress through belts, and how often do they fail belt tests (failing is good - when everyone passes, there are no standards and it's a belt-mill)... do they promise a black belt to everyone (bad), or any other "guarantee" of progress?
Are there other adults and/or adult only classes - and do you prefer those or a more family-type atmosphere?
How strenuous are the classes, and do they do full contact, throws / falls? Lots of things you can check out, but observing a few classes and asking a few basic questions should give you a feel of the different places...
And HAVE FUN!!!!!!!
Thanks Bytsi! That is a great idea ... the three places I mentioned are not belt-mills ... I knew to look out for that!! They are also really small places with only the owner/head instructor and maybe one other guy. The thing I am most worried about is injury I suppose. I have a long history of lax ligaments and hypermobility and I worry about getting beat up by someone like CR!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradstudent78
I'd suggest that you visit all the places around you, watch a class, and talk to the instructors. The quality of the instructor and the type of class they offer is probably going to be more important then picking one style over another. If you have specific goals watch the class and talk to the instructor about them. If you interest is in fitness, does it look like they are getting a work out? If your interested in self defense, does what they are doing look like it would actually work against a real attack? Does it look like something you'd enjoy doing? I know I wouldn't enjoy doing high kicks, so something like Tae kwon do probably isn't for me, but it might appeal to you.
Cool. Thanks for the tips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamondpete
Hi Julie
I think that you are asking the wrong question. You should not be looking at what style is suited to you but rather what attracts you. You are in good shape and should be able to make progress at whatever you do, so make it something that "grabs" you- Kool! I want to do this.
If you walked into a gym and said the same thing,
I guarantee you, you would be in the corner with the pink barbells. If you approach MA or anything this way, you will end up with a poor choice. GO into a few places and say- hey this kicks ass, and I want to do it! This instructor is kool and qualified, I trust him/her. Then you will have chosen the right MA. As much as people like to compare and have imaginary MA fight (Bruce Lee could take the Hulk) there is not that much difference between them. (if you get into sport MA, i think there is a bigger difference) Basically, bodies are all the same and they only can move certain ways.
cheers
Peter
Thanks Pete ... I get that I think ... it will be a "feel" sort of thing. I'll plan to go scope these places out in a few months ...
__________________
Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
I totally enjoyed Aikido when I took it for a semester. You do throw people and get thrown and it is interesting to do the locks, but you don't actually hit or kick anyone/anything/pads or bags (if that is enticing to you).
I have a bias against TKD, mainly because of the cheezyness of all the McDojos around… but other than that, pretty much anything could work just fine. My mom has done kempo, judo, and karate (karate for years and years) and liked them all. It really is a lot more about the school, atmosphere, instructors, philosophy than anything else.
I want a low violence, quick self defense system.
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