Confused about ground game?

[goldwave84]

Hi all
Watching more and more MMA matches makes me ask this question. What really is ground game? Is it something you can learn from a pure art, or its something that came with the conception of MMA? I am considering taking up Judo to supplement my muay thai (its going cheap where I live abt 7.50 USD a month) so i might as well take the opportunity. Does Judo teach this ground game? What if you get mounted in a street fight? Would it help?

Ash

[Chris Correia]

I can't speak really knowledgeably about Judo's ground techniques, but there is a focus on that. It is part of the art, along with the throwing/sweeping techniques. Where it comes into the curriculum, I can't say. However, as a supplement to Muay Thai, I think the Judo would be neat and helpful complementary art. If it's convenient and affordable, and you have the time to pursue it, then do it!

There was a Judo club at my college for a while (waaaaay back) and I took part in that for the several months it existed. In that time, we worked some on ground submission choke techniques. I bought a small two volume set of books back then (still have them, I think) called Judo in Action. One was on standing techniques, one was on ground techniques.

[Jokerz]

Judo focuses more on throws and takedowns, and some groundwork. It varies from school to school of course. Judo is a good choice, because if your on the street you don't want to go to the ground because he may have friends.
Jujitsu is more of a middle ground between BJJ, and Judo. You get throws, locks, and chokes. But again how much of each depends on the school.
Brazilian Jujitsu is primarily ground. All types of submissions, sweeps, ect. But you do learn some basic throws and take downs. But again this varies from school to school.

If you want to develop a ground game then either wrestling or BJJ would be a good option, however Judo is excellent for throws and take downs. And if you can find a JJJ you will get a little of both.

[goldwave84]

Well, wrestling is not thought in Malaysia and jujitsu is expensive. I guess it DOES depend on the school. Ill have to go check it out to know more. Thx!.

[Chiron]

Ground game is a generic term just like having good "stand-up" is. It means just what it says really - being good at fighting on the ground. It "usually" implies knowledge of submissions. But there are different aspects to it just as there are to stand-up fighting. You can have good offense on the ground, good defense, or both - just like stand-up. Judo does teach some ground work. They don't focus on it as much as they do on throws but they do teach it to a fair degree. As Jokerz said, it varies from school to school.

The big thing I think is important is working without the gi. Being good on the ground with the gi is one thing, being good without it is another. The same is true for stand-up grappling and throwing. There are judo throws that you can use with a gi but good luck executing them on a guy in a t-shirt or less in a real-life self-defense situation. I think it pays to focus a little more attention on the moves that could be executed well in either said. If you keep that in mind I think studying judo can be an excellent addition to your muay thai.

[kuri]

We did alot of newaza (ground work) in my old judo club, but every school is different.

Just go watch them train and ask about the curriculum. If it's geared more toward competition then they'll likely concentrate more on throws.

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by kuri

We did alot of newaza (ground work) in my old judo club, but every school is different.

Just go watch them train and ask about the curriculum. If it's geared more toward competition then they'll likely concentrate more on throws.

So. how'd that work out, in terms of Chiron's point (good one) about using the gi. Judo is, after all, sport oriented and relies on the competition uniform. What did you find to be useful carry over to non-competition situations? I still think the skills picked up in Judo training could be very useful and strong, even compared to other grappling and throwing arts. It could possibly be the best place to develop the timing and sensitivity to the opponent, but it IS done in its particular context.

[ko67]

Ground game in MMA has become a hybrid style all it's own, wrestling, Jiu Jitsu and now we are seeing more Judo players entering the fray.

If you want to get into MMA, then a school that focuses on that style is where you want to go. If I had to pick one, it would be BJJ. Judo would be better than nothing if that is your only option.

One thing about the the gi. Many of the Jiu Jitsu guys I have trained with say that working with a gi makes you better when you fight no gi. The reason is that with a gi there are so many more techniques that can be applied. If you are not on top of your game, there are more ways to end up in a bad situation.

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by ko67

One thing about the the gi. Many of the Jiu Jitsu guys I have trained with say that working with a gi makes you better when you fight no gi. The reason is that with a gi there are so many more techniques that can be applied. If you are not on top of your game, there are more ways to end up in a bad situation.

AHH! So, fighting against someone who is trying to use YOUR gi against YOU makes you better, since they can attempt so much more on you.

[ko67]

Originally Posted by Chris Correia

AHH! So, fighting against someone who is trying to use YOUR gi against YOU makes you better, since they can attempt so much more on you.

Yup. Tightens up your game when the gi comes off.

[Jokerz]

Originally Posted by ko67

Yup. Tightens up your game when the gi comes off.

I agree some what but, if you expect to go from Gi to no Gi in a tournament lets say, you will find it is completely different. I agree that with the Gi it can help your no gi game, but the 2 don't necessarily improve each other. With the Gi you have a heavy duty collar, shirt, and belt to grab on to, but in no gi you don't. I think doing both helps your technique, because you don't become dependent on having a Gi to do moves, or you are not over using the gi to get the submission (if that makes any sense)

[kuri]

In my club we had BJJ guys, wrestlers, Samboists etc... and sparred alot without the Gi. Both for no GI comps and real world use it's best to do both.

A jacket or shirt can be used against someone on the street to pull off an effective choke, thus Gi chokes are useful to practice.

Other factors that can make Judo effective are developing off-balancing techniques and throws (thus many JJ guys also do Judo). "Suicide throws" are also great for countering headlocks and other common situations.

Bottom line is there is no one best system or technique.

[ko67]

Originally Posted by Jokerz

I agree some what but, if you expect to go from Gi to no Gi in a tournament lets say, you will find it is completely different. I agree that with the Gi it can help your no gi game, but the 2 don't necessarily improve each other. With the Gi you have a heavy duty collar, shirt, and belt to grab on to, but in no gi you don't. I think doing both helps your technique, because you don't become dependent on having a Gi to do moves, or you are not over using the gi to get the submission (if that makes any sense)

I totally agree, which is why in m first post i said that if you want to train MMA, go to an MMA school.

If you want o tighten up your Jiu Jitsu, a gi will help, but you still need to train no gi.

[Chiron]

Originally Posted by Chris Correia

AHH! So, fighting against someone who is trying to use YOUR gi against YOU makes you better, since they can attempt so much more on you.

It can. You should do some gi training because it is useful. I think the majority of training should be in a situation as close to the competition (or self-defense situation) as possible. So if you're going for MMA or self-defense, you should have to deal with the possibility of the person hitting you in the sparring and training situations. If you're training for a Jujitsu tournament then wear the gi for most of the training. This doesn't mean one should do all or nothing either way. It's just a matter of where the emphasis is.

As far as grappling I think Judo or BJJ would be great. I'd like to learn more about combat sambo or catch wrestling myself but there aren't many instructors around here.

[goldwave84]

I totally agree that there is no ONE system what can accomplish everything! As in MMA, we have seen different people with different backgrounds winning the fight. I do not plan to get in the cage/ring anytime soon, but taking up a martial art that can keep you safe in times of need will always come in handy. I really enjoy my muay thai, and I think I am getting quiet good at it. So Judo will help with other areas like throwing and submission.

[Irishdazza]

I've been on the ground with one guy with six standing round kicking...there is value in knowing where to put him....but I'm not sure who teaches that. Lol..other than translating the standing game to the ground...possible but takes work!

[ed7501]

Originally Posted by Jokerz

If you want to develop a ground game then either wrestling or BJJ would be a good option, however Judo is excellent for throws and take downs. And if you can find a JJJ you will get a little of both.

JJJ is a far cry from Judo or BJJ these days. While its techniques do incorporate everything from strikes to submissions, they are not trained as such. It is mostly katas and there is no "rolling" (ie. you will not develop a "ground game"). If you watch a JJJ tournament, it is pretty much a karate match with a little grappling thrown in.

We had quite a few JJJ guys train with us in BJJ class, and while they knew how to apply an armbar, chokes, etc, they had no clue how to set it up or how to move on the ground.

[jvernacchio]

Originally Posted by goldwave84