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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
Very cool. Our school has similarly laid-out belt requirements (available on our website or at each dojo) - minimal time between belts, minimum class hours, participation in minimum number of tournaments (and placings at the higher belts) -- minimum age for intermediate and beyond... Stripe testing for the munchkins because they like the reinforcement - no stripes for adults .
My old school has a website that shows group "testing" pics of 50-60 kids (as in, 7-12 years old) with black belts... sigh...
I'm of the opinion of a balance of the approaches/perspectives.
A lot of the debate points depend on what one considers to be the meaning of a black belt (or any rank). Martial arts used to be just young guys, and, in some cases, very competition oriented; hardly any women, even. Now we have thirty, forty and fifty something year old women and men starting training. Realistically, their achievement will never match that of a 20 year old starting training.
I don't believe in black belt mills, and I believe in a slower track for youth. But I do think that a promotion system and schedule can accommodate today's broader array of students. Ranks just mean different things, then. perhaps, then they used to thirty or forty years ago.
I'm of the opinion of a balance of the approaches/perspectives.
A lot of the debate points depend on what one considers to be the meaning of a black belt (or any rank). Martial arts used to be just young guys, and, in some cases, very competition oriented; hardly any women, even. Now we have thirty, forty and fifty something year old women and men starting training. Realistically, their achievement will never match that of a 20 year old starting training.
I don't believe in black belt mills, and I believe in a slower track for youth. But I do think that a promotion system and schedule can accommodate today's broader array of students. Ranks just mean different things, then. perhaps, then they used to thirty or forty years ago.
That's all I've got time for now . . .
The meaning of a black belt... the start of your REAL journey and learning -- that's been drilled into us for so long!
I absolutely know I will NEVER look like the 18 or 20 year olds in our dojo... I can only do so much with these old hips! But I just do my best and work hard to improve my fitness both in martial arts and in general (outside the dojo).
One interesting debate I've seen is: can ANYONE earn a black belt, if they take enough time and put work into it, or is there a point when physical limitations (age, weight, fitness, flexibility, injury) make that achievement impossible?
What if the student doesn't want to give up and wants to continue to progress, but they are no longer able to meet the standards of the higher rank even when making the maximum effort they (personally) are capable of? Some schools just give the belts out anyway, but does that detract from the "value" of belts / rank given to people who can meet the true physical standards?
A lot of the debate points depend on what one considers to be the meaning of a black belt (or any rank).
Here here. My Aikido dojo now has white, blue brown and black belts - our Sensei has conceded that north america is a very "must-see-results" type of society.
But prior to that he used the two-colour system: you had a white belt until your sensei felt you had learned enough to get your black belt, and nothing in between. That's it. You were either a white belt (for a long, long time) or black belt. Senior students recalled coming into the class for the first time and getting tossed around by a "white belt".
I think it'd be nice to get back to that in some cases...
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Fall down seven times, get up eight. -- Japanese Proverb
The meaning of a black belt... the start of your REAL journey and learning -- that's been drilled into us for so long!
Ditto. I've decided it's about the equivalent of earning a high school diploma: very useful and admirable in it's own right, but in a way nothing hugely special if you are actually a student/learner and plan to keep learning. There is so much more afterwards, a veritable lifetime of learning.
One interesting debate I've seen is: can ANYONE earn a black belt, if they take enough time and put work into it, or is there a point when physical limitations (age, weight, fitness, flexibility, injury) make that achievement impossible?
From what I understand about BJJ (the martial art I study) is that your belt level is determined by your ability to hang with others at that same level. All the tournaments I have attended seperated +30 from younger competitors. This is to compensate to a degree for the limitations you mention. The thing is, in BJJ, technique can overcome many of the limitations you mention, but I'm not sure about other styles that require more brute force actions. Still, if you can hang with other black belts of your same age in BJJ, I beleive that you would be issued a black belt and it would be legitimate. And as you mentioned later on in your post, the quality of that belt will be determined by your school. Many schools hand out belts as a way to keep membership. Mine does not and a year into training I'm still a white belt.
Oh, and for the poll, I got into Karate as a kid and we had a legitmate instructor, but I was there because Karate was cool. I ended up quitting because it demanded too much from me. I now study BJJ primarily because I have friends in the class and we have a great time, but also because it's great for fitness and allows me to challenge myself in a way that would normally end in jail time.
How do you choose which one to get involved with? I am interested, but I don't know which would more beneficial in the overall picture
First - what are your goals - why do you want to get involved in martial arts - what do you want to learn? Do you want to spar a lot, learn the artistic part, develop fitness or discipline or learn to defend yourself?
I don't think it's only about which art your pick - which teacher you end up with is probably more important... there are pros and cons to many martial arts, some are more competition oriented, some are more practical self-defense oriented, some have more focus on discipline or tradition than others... some do a lot of kicks, some punch a lot, some grapple on the ground and do lots of joint locks, some do throws and sweeps... what do YOU want to learn most?
Check out some local schools, surf the web a bit. See how many little kids there are, how many adults, who teaches (the head instructor or a lower-level student, and if the student teaches, are they someone you'd want to learn from?). How quickly do people get belts, and how often do people fail (failing belt tests is good - it shouldn't be easy or a given thing that you pass every test)... How long to get a black belt and do they guarantee it (not a good thing - it shouldn't be something that everyone automatically gets).
See if you can try out a few classes at the schools you like before committing - most will let you do a week or month of classes before you sign up...
One "seat of the pants" assessment beyond the goals (which is the biggest question) is, when looking at a given school, class, and instructor, is "Can you imagine yourself in there" and "would you want to be in there."?
FYI, I don't, as a standard policy, offer free trials (except I do have occassional "buddy/friend" nights, and also let women bring friends when they want to try classes. My thinking is that a class, or even a week or two, is not enough time to judge something. My thinking is "Watch, want, and commit (for at least some period of time). (the whole empty cup of tea thing . . .)
Just have some fun visiting some schools, watching, and asking questions.
Oh, also, I DO guarantee black belts . . . if someone sticks around long enough to qualify for the test. . .and if, after their test, they eventually finish up the parts of the test they invariably failed.
Oh, also, I DO guarantee black belts . . . if someone sticks around long enough to qualify for the test. . .and if, after their test, they eventually finish up the parts of the test they invariably failed.
Thanks Chris
Just curious about your school's black belt guarantee, especially in light of some questions raised earlier in this thread -- how do you handle someone who has physical limitations that might NOT allow them to complete the requirements for black belt - ever?
I don't know what your specific requirements are at your school, but - if someone is not physically able (weight, age, chronic injury, etc) to do everything required -- do you tell those people up front that you to can't guarantee a belt (in other words, only guarantee the belt to people who seem like they'd be able to physically achieve it), or do you keep failing them on parts they can't do until they give up, or do you adapt the requirements to their limitations or ???
I've been at a few schools - in particular there was one "belt mill" where everyone got black belts no matter what, and I compare it to where I am now where the attitude is that not everyone should or can achieve a black belt... if you can't do what is physically required to a reasonable degree of competence, you hit a point where you can't continue to progress up the ranks...
I guess I will pipe in on this topic, which has made for very interesting reading.
I am currently preparing for my black belt exam. Before being allowed to test for your black belt, the school system, I am enrolled in makes you go through 3 pre-screenings. These screenings are very intense mini exams that last anywhere from 1 hour to 2.5 hours each. We do these screenings in front of several instructors from multiple schools, then the instructor critique your work and provide feedback to you on what you need to work on.
First, the black belt is never guaranteed at my school, but your earning it is really based you being able to do all aspects of what has been taught over your journey to black belt to the best of your personal ability. Meaning if you can not do 3 consecutive tornado kicks and kick and x-ray sheet at your head level, the paper can be lowered to where you can kick to, but you MUST still be able to complete 3 kicks consecutively.
Makes sense - and good luck on your testing! I'm hoping to test for my black belt next summer (I have one more brown belt to earn - hopefully late fall this year - before I can pre-test for black)...
Why do we need belts at all? I enjoy learning something new and simply getting better at what I practice (in this case BJJ). I guess a belt could show others that you've reached a certain level of progress, but in my mind that shouldn't matter. Progress is an individual thing. Also, with how easy it seems some belts are to get, they have already been devalued. At the end of the day, it is only you who knows your skill level regardless of a particular belt you have.
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"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -- T.S. Eliot
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."-- Aristotle
Why do we need belts at all? I enjoy learning something new and simply getting better at what I practice (in this case BJJ). I guess a belt could show others that you've reached a certain level of progress, but in my mind that shouldn't matter. Progress is an individual thing. Also, with how easy it seems some belts are to get, they have already been devalued. At the end of the day, it is only you who knows your skill level regardless of a particular belt you have.
People always know what they and others can do, meaning who is in the talent pecking order. Belts provide a milestone for people to strive toward. True, if they are essentially given without being earned, they lose significance. But if they are earned in some manner, then they can provide a goal to reach and a milestone to appreciate/acknowledge. Perhaps somewhat like rank in the military.
Nothing wrong with it, per se, nor is there inherently anything wrong without it. If you don't prefer that system/order, then you simply don't train in a school that utilizes belts.
I personally find value in them, even if folks at the same level have different abilities. Everyone does have to pass a test with certain common minimum requirements, but some still are more polished/talented. I can always advance someone more quickly if I want, and do so on occassion.
It is also very typical to have a student who is very "brown belt capable" physically, with their ability/technique, but not mentally/emotionally/spiritual ly. They have to grow into their belt in those areas, if you will. Another student might have a comparatively sloppy test compared to that first student (but they still have to pass it!), but they are very mentally mature or have greater spirit; they are brown belts in their heart, and not as much in their body. They need to continue to develop/grow/catch up a bit in a different way (with their ability).
But, in either case, the test provides challenge and motivation, and also, after the fact, acknowledgement of achievement. But people still know who is who and what they can do (or who they are).
Why do we need belts at all? I enjoy learning something new and simply getting better at what I practice (in this case BJJ). I guess a belt could show others that you've reached a certain level of progress, but in my mind that shouldn't matter. Progress is an individual thing. Also, with how easy it seems some belts are to get, they have already been devalued. At the end of the day, it is only you who knows your skill level regardless of a particular belt you have.
I agree with this overall. The only place I really see a ranking program being useful is if you have different levels of classes for various students (which a good teacher should be able to determine this without ranks) or in the more useful circumstance of providing some kind of teaching credentials.
Just read the first post. My mom put me into TKD when I was about 11 because I was going to go into middle school and my mom wanted me to learn patience and control. Given that I had absolutely towards my peers (but I did towards authorities that I saw as just), I got into a lot of fights. Ironically, I fought a lot because I was pushed around.
So my mom took a gamble. She realized that I could learn patience and control, thus avoiding conflict and not diverting my energies from school, or that I could become more lethal than I previously had been. I went the former road because once I did learn to whoop some ass, I didnt need to prove anything or waste my time with morons.
I stuck with it for a while since I was goal driven, and I got my black belt. But a little while later, I dropped it because nothing really changed instruction-wise once I got it (except new forms) and I didnt feel like I was getting anything else out of it. I also felt a little limited in dealing with non-choreographed situations so i had to learn that shit somewhere else.
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I just signed my 5 year old for TKD. I knew I wanted him to do it for the confidence, discipline and respect. I waited until this fall because he seemed ready. We have been going 3 times a week for the past 3 weeks. I only intended to bring him 2x a week but he loves it and wants to go more. Yesterday he got his first stripe on his white belt and you have never seen such a proud boy. I have also noticed (and part of this is just developmental but still relevant) that he is paying attention more to his teachers and swim instructor rather than goofing off and being told 100 times to pay attention. His master would never stand for that and I think it is spilling over to other aspects of his life.
That's great Nicole. And I'm always glad to hear when parents wait til their kids are ready -- some younger ones are ready earlier, but it's hard on the entire "junior warrior" class (and the instructors) when one or 2 kids are clearly not ready and/or not interested... Hope your son continues to enjoy it - now when is Mommy gonna sign up?
Statistically, most people wouldn't be voting for overall self discipline! RAWR! I voted for self confidence, which is ridiculous I know, but on my bad days that is what I want, and I admit I have a lot of bad days, but I'm workin on it!!!
I started in TKD when I was about 14, because I bugged my mom enough (too much watching Karate Kid when I was little), and because she wanted me to have some sort of self-defense experience before I went off to college. I continued all through high school, with some minor breaks (broke my wrist, broke my nose) during that time. It gave me more discipline and self-confidence. While I have always had a temper, and got into a few fights as a kid, there is something about KNOWING you have the skills and knowledge to break someone's knee or elbow that keeps you from actually doing it (well, I suppose it does as long as you are not a sociopath or something). I've tried to go back, and found a good school, but couldn't afford it at the time, and moved away, and haven't found a good one since. I tried Okinawan Karate for a little bit, but again, money was an issue.
Now that I'm 30, I'd like to get back into it, and have looked into Krav Maga, mainly for self-defense. I like that it takes your instinctual movements during an attack and turns them into techniques to use, and that there is a bit more freedom than in traditional martial arts, as you only follow the philosophy of the techniqe rather than the specific movements. Supposedly, at least...
I would also like to get back into a more traditional martial art, as I think my fiance would prefer something with less emphasis on pure violence. TKD would be nice, but I have always wanted to learn weapons in addition, just for the added challenge of it. If I can find a Tang Soo Do school I would like to learn that.
I've been reading this thread lots so I may as well...
I have always been drawn to karate but have never taken it. (yet) I really am interested in the aspect of self discipline, as well as the focus involved. In those rare moments in my life when I have felt balance, I have been truly happy, and I feel as though I could learn how to be there more often if I participated in a martial art. In the meantime, I have started boxing as a way to ease myself into something else. I hope to incorporate a martial art as I get leaner and more fit.
Plus, there's the added bonus of being able to defend yourself.
My mom got back into karate as a green belt (after having been away for 7 years having me and my sis) at nearly 300#s and as her only real form of exercise dropped her back to the 150s-ish. So, darlin, it can be done.
I voted overall self development and discipline. I was in Muay Thai kick boxing for a short term of 6 months. I learned a lot and loved every minute in that class. I was always disappointed that class was over even though I was drenched in sweat and could barely throw a punch I was so tired. Since I moved, the closest Muay Thai class is about an hour drive and I can barely afford going to the gym and play hockey so I decided not to take Muay thai since it was $60 a month plus the gas to get there and back was an awful lot.
__________________ Pain is the feeling of fear leaving your body.
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I guess it's my warm up to karate then...
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