DO YOU FOCUS ON THE TOOL IN HIS HAND, OR THE WEAPON?
I thought about this topic after a response I got from one of my previous posts about dealing with an armed assailant.
It had to do with taking care of an attacker with a gun, and the person gave an excellent response to the topic but when it got to the part where he was close enough to make contact with the attacker he immediately focused on getting the gun away from the guy, and I began wondering if a lot of other schools teach this same response to weapons.
So I’d love to hear views on this topic from you guys.
And yes, I'd focus on his weapon rather than his tool
What is your background Scrub?
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
I think it's fairly common sense that if your opponent has a gun/weapon you should focus on eliminating it. No matter how good you are, a bullett has more force and no discretion.
I've seen some good disarms in styles like Kali but overall disarming is not nearly as practical as some practicioners like to pretend. So the first thing I'd focus on doing is running. lol If that's not possible then I'd focus on breaking his elbow or tearing his eyes out. Whatever's in his hand wont matter at that point.
I agree Chiron. Run, find your own weapon...
After teaching 'standard' knife disarms you would find in Kali or Krav Maga I would give a Magic marker to a student to simulate a knife and have a another student defend empty hand. The result? The cool disarms need more practice
I am not worried that my students are thinking 'the stuff bobby teaches doesn't work' . I sleep better knowing that i did them a great service while they wash ink marks off instead of blood.
As a side note at the last Dog bros gathering cattleprods were used to simulate a closer emotional response of a blade.
chiron you hit it on the head. for those that were wondering a put the question like that to see if anyone would figure out what I meant by weapon and tool. the tool is the knife, club, gun, and the weapon is his brain. without his brain he can't control the tool.
I have a site here for anyone who wants to check it out. some probably saw it already. video.google.com/videoplay
OK, I'll bite. How would you take out his brain?
(please, no more Matt Furey links)
Those three weapons are inherently different so obviously the way in which one would deal with an attacker wielding each one would differ. And you better pray the guy doesn't know how to use them either, or without your own weapon you are in some trouble.
Speaking of Dogg Brothers have you seen what happens in their matches when one guy loses his weapon? And those guys are trained.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
you shut it down via his CNS, and those guys were most likely trained to be weapons fighters not trained to fight with weapons, meaning when the weapon was gone they felt naked, a knife does'nt make you more dangerous it simply allows you to do something your bare hands can't, which is primarily penetrate the body and accellerate trauma, and you understnad that which is more of a reason to make sure that your the one dilivering the violence but you don't need it to be dangerous because I'm sure everyone here knows how to take another human without a weapon.
In the system that I follow there are no differences in the principles to when your facing an unarmed man or if he's holding a weapon but I know thats kinna hard to wrap your brain around and I'm sorry I even mentioned it because I know where this will inevitably lead to now
Last edited by lordscrub : 11-30-2006 at 01:15 PM.
you shut it down via his CNS, and those guys were most likely trained to be weapons fighters not trained to fight with weapons, meaning when the weapon was gone they felt naked,
+Many of the Dog bros are my former training partners. They are well versed in empty hand training including Muay Thai, BJJ, JKD Krav Maga ect.
a knife does'nt make you more dangerous it simply allows you to do something your bare hands can't, which is primarily penetrate the body and accellerate trauma,
+That sounds like the knife attacker would be more dangerous.
and you understnad that which is more of a reason to make sure that your the one dilivering the violence but you don't need it to be dangerous because I'm sure everyone here knows how to take another human without a weapon.
In the system that I follow there are no differences in the principles to when your facing an unarmed man or if he's holding a weapon but I know thats kinna hard to wrap your brain around and I'm sorry I even mentioned it because I know where this will inevitably lead to now
+The video you posted shows there is a difference between empty hands and weapons defense including the size of the weapon.
Also note the policemen are trained and EXPIERENCEd to recognize the physical and emotional cues of an attacker not to mention they were told in advance. The odds don't look good to me.
No need to feel sorry. The forum is for open minded people to discuss right?
you shut it down via his CNS, and those guys were most likely trained to be weapons fighters not trained to fight with weapons, meaning when the weapon was gone they felt naked, a knife does'nt make you more dangerous it simply allows you to do something your bare hands can't, which is primarily penetrate the body and accellerate trauma, and you understnad that which is more of a reason to make sure that your the one dilivering the violence but you don't need it to be dangerous because I'm sure everyone here knows how to take another human without a weapon.
In the system that I follow there are no differences in the principles to when your facing an unarmed man or if he's holding a weapon but I know thats kinna hard to wrap your brain around and I'm sorry I even mentioned it because I know where this will inevitably lead to now
The dogfights guys actually train their movements full force unlike the flashy "weapon disarms" that many martial arts teach. Most people, trained or not, will lose against a knife simply because any idiot can easily do a large amount of damage with one. A buddy of mine was almost killed recently and when it happened he was on the ground bleeding and unable to get up before he even realized the other guy even had a knife. Real life rarely turns out like a Segal movie does and all the strength and training in the world don't help when you're bleeding from the neck before you realize you've been attacked.
Others in this thread have mentioned eye gouging, which is another move you NEVER hear of succeeding against an assailant in the news. The human body is wired to protect the eyes instinctively; they're a harder target to hit than most martial arts would have you believe. IMO if you can't train the move against a fully resisting opponent, you can't rely on it in a pinch.
Others in this thread have mentioned eye gouging, which is another move you NEVER hear of succeeding against an assailant in the news. The human body is wired to protect the eyes instinctively; they're a harder target to hit than most martial arts would have you believe. IMO if you can't train the move against a fully resisting opponent, you can't rely on it in a pinch.
You don't hear of people getting eye gouged much in the news, but you don't hear of many other techniques in the news either. Hell, the only thing I remember hearing a guy use on an armed assailant was a gas station attendant using his 2nd degree black belt TKD successfully on a robber. Hardly the most effective style for self-defense. But it's not like they are going to have moves people used on the news - "Man puts assailant in rear naked choke: Film at eleven." Plus people rarely go for eyes. There's no reason to in anything but a life threatening situation. It's not something a lot of people will do in a typical pissing match fight. You can try to instinctively protect your eyes all you want, it doesn't mean they aren't going to get hit. Just like the groin. Hell, in MMA people get thumbs in the eye all the time and the striker isn't even aiming for them. Do they not get hurt because they instinctively protect them? Nope. They get poked and get stunned just like anyone else. Besides, while someone is trying to protect their eyes, it's harder to use them for much else, like trying to see where to hit you. So I still say going for the eyes is one of the best options against an armed opponent. Next to running of course.
Besides, while someone is trying to protect their eyes, it's harder to use them for much else, like trying to see where to hit you. So I still say going for the eyes is one of the best options against an armed opponent.
Eye gouging can't be practiced, so it is unknown if it will even work in a situation. An armed assailant isn't going to sit there and let another person jab at their eyes while standing still, and if the would-be eye gouger misses then that person is probably going to get really hurt. You can bet that if some assailant suffered an injury as gory as having their eyes gouged out that it would make the news (yet, again, it hasn't).
In short, my opinion is that all of these paranoid martial arts fantasies where the martial artist is backed into a corner of an alley and has to use ninja-deathstrikes to fight their way out are downright hilarious. A person would be better off training with effective joint locks and other movements which can actually be practiced and relied on or, better yet, handing over the wallet and/or running.
Eye gouging can't be practiced, so it is unknown if it will even work in a situation. An armed assailant isn't going to sit there and let another person jab at their eyes while standing still, and if the would-be eye gouger misses then that person is probably going to get really hurt. You can bet that if some assailant suffered an injury as gory as having their eyes gouged out that it would make the news (yet, again, it hasn't).
You can't practice eye-gouging 100% but you can practice it. In Wing Chun we used to practice it all the time. Aside from the forms (which were next to useless) we used to attack each other with headgear and face masks. But it doesn't take much training anyway since it's so basic. All you do is ram a finger or knuckle into an eye. Not too complicated. Unlike most moves where you first have to control someones arm to some degree and then do a disarm all the while they're just standing there like a retard. I'll agree an eye gouge is risky. I'd much rather run or throw something at the attacker. But standing in a melee doing anything against an armed attacker is risky. Is someone attempting a disarm going to fare any better? Nope. And again, you don't find people eye gouging in the news. But you don't find them doing much of any other move in the news either. I've never seen it in the news where the reporter says a person fought off an attacker using the Dog brothers disarm method. So by your own rationale, aren't those claims just faulty as you claim eye gouging to be?
Quote:
In short, my opinion is that all of these paranoid martial arts fantasies where the martial artist is backed into a corner of an alley and has to use ninja-deathstrikes to fight their way out are downright hilarious. A person would be better off training with effective joint locks and other movements which can actually be practiced and relied on or, better yet, handing over the wallet and/or running.
Ya, I can agree with that. And I do think practicing joint locks is a good idea. I just think most of them aren't nearly as effective as many martial artists believe against an armed attacker.
you shut it down via his CNS, and those guys were most likely trained to be weapons fighters not trained to fight with weapons, meaning when the weapon was gone they felt naked,
+Many of the Dog bros are my former training partners. They are well versed in empty hand training including Muay Thai, BJJ, JKD Krav Maga ect.
a knife does'nt make you more dangerous it simply allows you to do something your bare hands can't, which is primarily penetrate the body and accellerate trauma,
+That sounds like the knife attacker would be more dangerous.
and you understnad that which is more of a reason to make sure that your the one dilivering the violence but you don't need it to be dangerous because I'm sure everyone here knows how to take another human without a weapon. In the system that I follow there are no differences in the principles to when your facing an unarmed man or if he's holding a weapon but I know thats kinna hard to wrap your brain around and I'm sorry I even mentioned it because I know where this will inevitably lead to now
+The video you posted shows there is a difference between empty hands and weapons defense including the size of the weapon.
Also note the policemen are trained and EXPIERENCEd to recognize the physical and emotional cues of an attacker not to mention they were told in advance. The odds don't look good to me.
No need to feel sorry. The forum is for open minded people to discuss right?
not going to touch much on the dog brothers cause I honestly don't know much about them, but I can guess just like you they were taught that the knife held overwelming power and that they had to respect it, as well the video I posted has absolutly nothing to do with TFT and or its principles, I just taught it interesting when I first saw it. Especialy in the ending when the guy said its better to just dance around the guy with the knife until he gets fed up of you, man that made me laugh, he honestly did'nt see the prison footages of people getting stabbed as apposed to the slashing they were showing on the tap.
In short I don't want to have a pissing contest to see who's kung fu is better, what works for you works for you, I was simply shown another way of thinking on the topic of violence that totally changed the way I look at "self defence" for lack of a better word because I no longer see it as defending myself, and at times I get a little excited about it and forget that not everyone can see things the way you do.
not going to touch much on the dog brothers cause I honestly don't know much about them, but I can guess just like you they were taught that the knife held overwelming power and that they had to respect it.
A knife, even in clumsy hands, can end a life in a second. I'd say thats worthy of both caution and respect and only a fool would think otherwise. I related a real-life story of a friend earlier in this same thread who survived a stabbing yet didn't even realize his assailant had a knife until it was over. This is a common thing to hear about in knife attacks since only the dumbest muggers are going to wave one around before attacking.
Did you pinch that from me!?!?!? Or come up with it independently?
Anyhoo...gave me a giggle!
__________________
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
. . . there are no differences in the principles to when your facing an unarmed man or if he's holding a weapon but I know thats kinna hard to wrap your brain around . . .
Though I'm probably not capable I'm playing with this in my head, and I see some potential concepts that would be defined by that statement. However, in my mind, the entire discussion comes to be more a both/and, rather than an either/or. As I usually tell students when they ask, "What if . . .?", "It depends."
Perhaps you can explain this concept better?
(And, hey, what do you mean about a pissing match about whose Kung Fu is better. Mine is better! My status thingy says so! LOL BTW, JP gave me that, and convinced me to keep it. I don't even practice anything considered Kung Fu, unless you take the words at their literal meaning.)
not going to touch much on the dog brothers cause I honestly don't know much about them, but I can guess just like you they were taught that the knife held overwelming power and that they had to respect it, as well the video I posted has absolutly nothing to do with TFT and or its principles, I just taught it interesting when I first saw it. Especialy in the ending when the guy said its better to just dance around the guy with the knife until he gets fed up of you, man that made me laugh, he honestly did'nt see the prison footages of people getting stabbed as apposed to the slashing they were showing on the tap.
+ My thooughts are: There are things to learn from the Dog Bros. and the police training video that you will not see looking thru a TFT filter. Empty your cup.
In short I don't want to have a pissing contest to see who's kung fu is better, what works for you works for you, I was simply shown another way of thinking on the topic of violence that totally changed the way I look at "self defence" for lack of a better word because I no longer see it as defending myself, and at times I get a little excited about it and forget that not everyone can see things the way you do.
+ To my recolection I haven't claimed 'my kung fu is better'. A good read would be Alwyn Cosgrove's pendulem concept of training. I'm sure it is posted on t-nation. It directly applies to many things in life. Enjoy...
I understand where you coming from about the underlying concepts. My concern with newbies is there needs to be a isolation before they can intergrate. SOme newbies take too much to heart conceptual ideas before putting in ring/mat time.
For us old timers it is one of those 'of course or yes and type of ideas'. I have a belief that we truly understand this because of all the bumps and bruises(expierence) we have.
+ To my recolection I haven't claimed 'my kung fu is better'. A good read would be Alwyn Cosgrove's pendulem concept of training. I'm sure it is posted on t-nation. It directly applies to many things in life. Enjoy...
after reading through my posts I think that I may have been a tad bit rude to you guys indirectly and I'm sorry for that, I guess I'm kinna use to getting abused whenever I speak about the principles that were taught to me so I got all defensive right away. oh the kung fu thing was actually taken frm chris's tag and not meant to be taken litterally nor was it directed at anyone in specific.
ok to the topic at hand. I heard someone saying that eye gouging can not be practised fully therefor it's effectivness can not be measured, and also the fact that you don't hear about it in the news means something as well. Ok I'll share something with you that I hope my help. There are documented cases of women being raped and when forensics examined the body they found a lot of DNA under the finger nails, and what was funny but not really was that when they found the guy who did it, he had lots of scratches all over his face but none on the eye it's self, and what that means is that even as this woman's life was being sucked away in front of her, just like most of us she found the thought of digging her finger into the man's socket up to her last knuckle was disgusting (note I said digging her finger in rather than poking, because what I'm referring to is the total deflation of the globe itself). oh and it goes without saying that you have to hold onto the back of the guy's neck to prevent him from going anywhere.
Now you can also just poke to the eye and it will give you the reflex action that your looking for, thus giving you other opportunities to wreck the guy, oh and to answer the question about the guy not standing still, if you can get to slap the guy you can get to his eye, it does'nt take that much hand eye cordination to target the eye and the lid does'nt offer much protection from a finger intent on going in, also if he's protecting that eye he is'nt doing much of anything else, if you get where I'm going with it.
. . . the kung fu thing was actually taken frm chris's tag and not meant to be taken litterally nor was it directed at anyone in specific. . .
No problem; I assumed that. But just so people know, that tag wasn't my idea! It was JP's humor. LOL
Re the eyes, I have no doubt that women in particular, and even men, can have a hard time responding with brutal resistance. As I show techniques to my women's class, I can see the women look blankly, and even cringe, as I demonstrate some of the techniques. Repitition definitely can build habits and desensitization over time.
One of the techniques I've learned which is kind of neat is how to pop those babies out of their sockets (how to get in there even if their eyes are squeezed shut). I've never tried it, but have been told it works (which in our system probably means it's been done at some point in time. ) Yeah, I know it's gross, but if you need it, you want it.
Re the eyes, I have no doubt that women in particular, and even men, can have a hard time responding with brutal resistance. As I show techniques to my women's class, I can see the women look blankly, and even cringe, as I demonstrate some of the techniques. Repitition definitely can build habits and desensitization over time.
One of the techniques I've learned which is kind of neat is how to pop those babies out of their sockets (how to get in there even if their eyes are squeezed shut). I've never tried it, but have been told it works (which in our system probably means it's been done at some point in time. ) Yeah, I know it's gross, but if you need it, you want it.
I can relate to that. When I've tought muay thai to women some of them don't really hit as hard as they can so I'd always start to play headgames with them to get them pissed off. When you start yelling "This isn't a game. I'm trying to hurt you!" their intensity starts to go up and they throw more passion into it. They always loved that afterwards.
ok to the topic at hand. I heard someone saying that eye gouging can not be practised fully therefor it's effectivness can not be measured, and also the fact that you don't hear about it in the news means something as well. Ok I'll share something with you that I hope my help. There are documented cases of women being raped and when forensics examined the body they found a lot of DNA under the finger nails, and what was funny but not really was that when they found the guy who did it, he had lots of scratches all over his face but none on the eye it's self, and what that means is that even as this woman's life was being sucked away in front of her, just like most of us she found the thought of digging her finger into the man's socket up to her last knuckle was disgusting.
So how do you explain these women not gouging the eyes? Is it common knowledge to go for the eyes, juggular, groin ect? How does one acclimate to the stesses, chaos and violence of a life and death situation and PERFORM?
So how do you explain these women not gouging the eyes? Is it common knowledge to go for the eyes, juggular, groin ect? How does one acclimate to the stesses, chaos and violence of a life and death situation and PERFORM?
I think if you ran a survey of 100 woman and asked them if they were being raped and they had a choice of any target on the man's body to strike, i think they will all come up with a good answer, the question is'nt if it's common knowledge, but as you correctly stated how does one acclimate to the stresses of a life and death situation, and the answer is you can't.
Even though violence is nothing new to the human race, there ar'nt many of us who see it for what it truly is. since we were young we were taught that people who do violence are bad, people who don't do violence are good, but in truth and infact it's only a tool and it's available to everyone, no one has a patent on violence.And i think that may have been the problem with those women, they tried to drag their social skill set into a place that will only get them killed, they arn't used to meeting violence with violence, because everyone in thier lives, from their parents to the media told them that it is not socially acceptable to use violence, of that they were not strong enough to deal with an attacker, so even when thier lives depended on it they still tried the social approach "please stop, don't hurt me, stay away(the scratches on the face trying to get him away instead of wanting to bring him in closer to get the job done), why are you doing this? " instead of meeting violence with violence.
On the topic of adrenal dump, there are studies that say this and there are studies that say that; so I don't want to get too much in the technical part of it because it would be easy for anyone to give a counter argument but I can share a story, its not a very exciting one but it means a lot to me. I was away in columbia away from my girl friend and I got an urgent message telling me to call her, when I called she told me that she went for her daily walk with her friend and after dropping her friend off at her house and walking back down the hill this guy started harrassing her but she ignored him, and apparently he did'nt like being ignored so he proceeded to do the stupidest thing at that moment and that was to grab her hand. Now I made it very clear to her that whenever a man puts his hands on a woman she has to consider it a very serious situation and she understood that. So instead of asking him to remove his hand or stop or anything like that, she met him with a strike to the testicles, left him on the ground and then ran like crazy all the way home, was she scared? no doubt, was her adrenaline pumping like crazy? hell yes but it did not affect her ability to pick a target and strike it as hard as possible.
I think if you ran a survey of 100 woman and asked them if they were being raped and they had a choice of any target on the man's body to strike, i think they will all come up with a good answer, the question is'nt if it's common knowledge, but as you correctly stated how does one acclimate to the stresses of a life and death situation, and the answer is you can't.
Even though violence is nothing new to the human race, there ar'nt many of us who see it for what it truly is. since we were young we were taught that people who do violence are bad, people who don't do violence are good, but in truth and infact it's only a tool and it's available to everyone, no one has a patent on violence.And i think that may have been the problem with those women, they tried to drag their social skill set into a place that will only get them killed, they arn't used to meeting violence with violence, because everyone in thier lives, from their parents to the media told them that it is not socially acceptable to use violence, of that they were not strong enough to deal with an attacker, so even when thier lives depended on it they still tried the social approach "please stop, don't hurt me, stay away(the scratches on the face trying to get him away instead of wanting to bring him in closer to get the job done), why are you doing this? " instead of meeting violence with violence.
So instead of asking him to remove his hand or stop or anything like that, she met him with a strike to the testicles, left him on the ground and then ran like crazy all the way home, was she scared? no doubt, was her adrenaline pumping like crazy? hell yes but it did not affect her ability to pick a target and strike it as hard as possible.
I would say then that your girlfriend was able to acclimate to the stress of a potential life threatining situation and perform. My hat's off to her!!!
Now let's get our hands dirty. As evolotionary psch/bio say when face with a life threating exp. we have a flight/fight response. Let's look at this on a continiuum.
flight-deer in head lights-verbal avoidance-fight-pushing-striking-skilled fighting-killing
I may have the order off a little bit but, you get the picture. With repeated exposure to such stresses one can program oneself to oneside of the continuum.
Another example of a psch continuum is rage and love. we can respond to traffic with rage>frustration>annoyed>neutral>enjoy time to oneself>taking to to enjoy music>using time to learn from audio books ect.
One can respond to one side or the other or somewhere inbetween. Some people do so on auto pilot and need to trained to swing to the other side ie.anger management.
Some thoughts to chew on. Maybe they may be appealing
I remember reading an article about the traffic light system?
Most people walk around on red, they need to go through amber to get to green.
Security professionals - bodyguards etc - train to be on amber all the time.
The hazzard of going green all the time is gonna have you hit first and possibly unneedlessly. It will certainly get you a run in with the law.
__________________
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
Yes. Being in amber is very much like being able to observe your own ego with a clear lens and then react with appropriate resources.
It is the time spent in red and green zones which inable us to move between red and green and live in amber. Some people live in mostly one or the other and understand the other zones but, it does not mean they can move beween them.
Much like the grappling vs. striking debate from the early 90's. Now it's the athlete his attributes ect. I smile when I hear the newbies argue about it. It reminds me of when I was a youngin stompin my feet that I know what the truth is! Now I know the truth just is...
DO YOU FOCUS ON THE TOOL OR THE WEAPON?
) Yeah, I know it's gross, but if you need it, you want it.
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