Biggest mistake pro fighters make in training

[Chiron]

Over the years I've observed how some boxers and mixed martial artists train and it seems like quite a few athletes, even at the top, use questionable training methodologies. The Rich Franklin clip posted a few weeks ago is one example. I saw how Tito Ortiz and Bas Rutten train and, though I think they are great fighters, it seems their training is a little lacking.

So I wanted to have some discussion on this. In your view, what is the biggest mistake you see in the training of martial artists (especially MMA)?

[Misfit]

Originally Posted by Chiron

Over the years I've observed how some boxers and mixed martial artists train and it seems like quite a few athletes, even at the top, use questionable training methodologies. The Rich Franklin clip posted a few weeks ago is one example.

I think is funny his methods weren't really questioned when he had like 20 straight victories, but now that he got his ass beat, people find his training methods questionable. All I can say is, whatever training method he's been using thus far sure seemed to pay off in his last 20 or so fights. That being said, if I became a trainer for one of these fighters, I sure as hell wouldn't know where to begin in designing there training routine, so I really couldn't say who's methods are good or bad.

[Chiron]

Originally Posted by Misfit

I think is funny his methods weren't really questioned when he had like 20 straight victories, but now that he got his ass beat, people find his training methods questionable. All I can say is, whatever training method he's been using thus far sure seemed to pay off in his last 20 or so fights. That being said, if I became a trainer for one of these fighters, I sure as hell wouldn't know where to begin in designing there training routine, so I really couldn't say who's methods are good or bad.

I can't speak for others who've said that but I couldn't criticize Franklin's strength program before because I didn't know much about it until they showed it on UFC All Access a week before the Silva fight. But I'm not trying to say it as a criticism of him. I like Franklin. I'm just saying from what I've seen from a lot of fighters (pro and ones I've trained with) their strength programs are questionable. I'll say the same for Ortiz's workout and even Bas Rutten who's one of my all time favorites. That's why I posed the question.

I'll give you an example...
Tito Ortiz' said his strength training consists of:
- 3 bodypart splits each twice a week
- The splits are: Legs, Back, Shoulders & Arms
- 4 sets of 20 per exercise
- About 240 total reps per day
- He didn't go into all of the exercises but some of them were front raises and dumbbell curls (with about 25# dbs no less).

Now, if Ortiz was just paying so much attention to muscular endurance before a fight then I could understand it but it seems that's his standard strength training method. I think his cardio routine is great but when it comes to his strength program my feeling is that he, like some other fighters, pays too much attention to muscular endurance and not enough to strength and power. I noticed this also with boxers and Thai boxers when I used to train in a school. Some training methods are done more out of tradition and myth than effectiveness or a scientific rational.

[ko67]

Originally Posted by Misfit

I think is funny his methods weren't really questioned when he had like 20 straight victories, but now that he got his ass beat, people find his training methods questionable. All I can say is, whatever training method he's been using thus far sure seemed to pay off in his last 20 or so fights. That being said, if I became a trainer for one of these fighters, I sure as hell wouldn't know where to begin in designing there training routine, so I really couldn't say who's methods are good or bad.

His training methods are pretty much the same as most guys out there and had little effect on the outcome. All that "conditioning" won't help you if you get knocked out in the first round.

My issue is his Muy Thai training. Fighting a kickboxer and not knowing how to deal with knees and the clinch is not a good thing.


One of the top mistakes is training like a bodybuilder. Another is using the weight room for "conditioning".

[dos]

Originally Posted by ko67

One of the top mistakes is training like a bodybuilder. Another is using the weight room for "conditioning".

Actually, complexes and combo lifts can serve as a GREAT conditioner for any athlete. Also, in doing so, you can train extremely hard without compromising lean body mass as you do with traditional running-style conditioning. This is a big reason why the crossfit stuff is so popular with the MMA athletes these days.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by dos

Actually, complexes and combo lifts can serve as a GREAT conditioner for any athlete. Also, in doing so, you can train extremely hard without compromising lean body mass as you do with traditional running-style conditioning. This is a big reason why the crossfit stuff is so popular with the MMA athletes these days.

We actually believe in the big three, bench/deadlift/squat for MMA (and boxers). I think what Ko is saying, is the overwhelming use of machines and isolation training (ala, bodybulding) in their weight training. And thinking that overly long sessions (2 or more hours) of weights coupled with LOTS of reps and set schemes is not the way to go.

[kuri]

I doubt anyone on this board would think that Franklin's machine circuit it the best way to go, and in fact in his case may have succeeded despite his weight training. MMA is still a young sport and alot of MA trainers probably have not gotten out of the old mindset of the slow morning jog etc... and when they hire a fitness trainer in a gym it's likely to be a guy more familiar with training guys that wanna get big.

I know for a fact that's what one of the guys that fought this past weekend (and lost) was doing for years. He lifted heavy in the gym but also did the long slow run thing. Luckily he was very young and technically skilled so did well regardless, up to a point.

Regarding Dos's comment about complexes it's interesting to think about the kinds of similar drills judokas (and wrestlers etc...) have done for decades - ones which involve lifting, pulling, or pushing your partner repeatedly (intervals) at a high intensity while using all the muscles specific to one's sport.

All Japan Judo Champion Masahiko Kimura in the 1930's:


Looks solid to me!

[Patricia]

On a side note, I remarked to Ko once that I really believe a lot of what we did in strongman/woman training would hold crossover appeal to MMA fighters.

Things like tire flipping, sled/car pulling, farmer walks - would be really good additions to any MMA fighter training regimen. Hell, I wish boxers would consider these, too.

[Waittz]

Farmers walks are probly the one thing most of them need but dont do. Grip strength and endurance is so clutch yet they dont train it.

[kuri]

You better believe that alot of fighters train grip strength/endurance. Towel pullups etc... are a staple of many fighters/grapplers training.

I wouldn't guess that all pro MMAers do but probably a significant portion.

[Patricia]

Tire flips, sled/car pulling and even farmer walks aren't just for grip training. For anyone who's ever done any of the above - they know this. There's quite a bit of explosive strength involved as well as stamina.

Try someday to flip a 400lb tire for as many times as you can within 60-seconds. Oh.My.

But improved grip is a nice benefit to any of those three.

[dos]

Strongman training would benefit ANY athlete, regardless of what sport he/she was participating in. Good stuff.

[ko67]

Originally Posted by Patricia

We actually believe in the big three, bench/deadlift/squat for MMA (and boxers). I think what Ko is saying, is the overwhelming use of machines and isolation training (ala, bodybulding) in their weight training. And thinking that overly long sessions (2 or more hours) of weights coupled with LOTS of reps and set schemes is not the way to go.

Yeah thats what I meant.

I don't have a problem with complexes or combo lifts, as long as there is a decent amount of weight being thrown around.

Tire flips, sandbags, strongman medleys these would be great conditioning.

And towel pullups can be difficult but compared to strongman grip training, not even close.

[kuri]

Towel pullups are plenty hard for me anyway!

I think Monson saw this thread cuz tonight on theSpike UFC preview show it showed some of Monson's training that included a "circuit" of flipping a 600lb (really?) tire followed by pushing a Navigator SUV around a parking lot.

He also did some plyometric training, working on shoots with bands providing resistance etc... good stuff. We'll see if it pays off on Saturday.

Matt Hughes weight training was a 4 day bodypart split. Lots of slow reps and I noticed he was using straps for pullups and reverse rows - what is up with that? Saving his grip for grappling perhaps?

[BobbyD]

I've seen and read some of Monson's training. Good stuff esp since he works with JC Santana and Rhadi Ferguson. His Grappling skill is superb if he can get past Silvia's reach...

Hughes has said he no longer squats due to a nagging back problem. Must be nice to be farmer boy strong

[Irishdazza]

Originally Posted by Patricia

On a side note, I remarked to Ko once that I really believe a lot of what we did in strongman/woman training would hold crossover appeal to MMA fighters.

Things like tire flipping, sled/car pulling, farmer walks - would be really good additions to any MMA fighter training regimen. Hell, I wish boxers would consider these, too.

They do. Have a look at Rossboxing.com

[Chiron]

Originally Posted by kuri

All Japan Judo Champion Masahiko Kimura in the 1930's:


Looks solid to me!

I think that dude became a Japanese judo champion from having to defend that hair. lol j/k

Strongman training would benefit ANY athlete, regardless of what sport he/she was participating in. Good stuff.

That's the type of thing I think they should do more of. Flipping tires would be great for aiding in sprawl defense.

I think the majority of gripping exercises for MMA fighters should focus on gripping objects with a circumference similar to the human wrist.