Senior belt recognition question.

[ShannonB]

So I have a question. I'm wondering in the various and sundry dojos/dojangs/whatevers you folks have trained in, how big a thing is it to show respect to higher level belts?

The reason I ask this is really just curiosity. In our class is pretty big on this concept, if someone is a couple belts above you you generally just show respect and generally adjust the way you were planning to drill to suit them. If a person is a black belt, especially more senior blackbelts, we generally allow them to set the tone, joke around only after they've iniated it, follow their lead, etc etc when working with them.

So, seeing as how I've never trained anywhere else I just assumed this was standard. However we've a new student in class who has joined us from some other martial art, beginning in Tae Kwon Do as a white belt though I'm sure he had progressed more wherever he came from. I notice a Glaring difference in terms of his interaction with more senior belts though, he treats them as his equals, and I even witnessed him correcting a second dan black belt on a form tonight. (Much to my enjoyment, he was proven wrong, but that's another story).

So I ask. What's the standard?

[Chris Correia]

Shannon:

Your experience in your home dojang is (I hope) most typical. It is the way we operate in our schools, and we look askance at schools/students who do not demonstrate proper etiquette.

A white belt's (or even a bit higher rank) ignorance in such a situation would normally be forgiven; I explain with a smile that they should not question or challenge a black belt, as a matter of proper manners, even if they -- the white belt -- were correct. It's not a who's right, it's just proper etiquette in regards to a superior (and even, perhaps, to a lower rank who is a bit older in age). A higher ranked color belt who acts that way gets pushups or some other activity to remind them of the need to display proper manners! Heck, even asking a question in the wrong way or at the wrong time by a high rank color belt or lower rank black belt might be rude. Definitely not US cultural norms; much more eastern. And it's not just manners to black belts; if I see a lower rank color belt being a bit too pushy or arrogant with a high ranking color belt, or with an older-aged color belt, I will remind them to keep their manners. We do, however, also expect students of all ranks to treat any other student with respect; no snideness or bossing around. (That's my job! LOL)

There is, perhaps, no standard; it just the way it is at different schools. But manners, or lack thereof, is noticed by everyone in every school. Your good manners/proper etiquete will be noticed and appreciated no matter where you train or visit.

[ShannonB]

Cool, interesting to know that the it's the same at your school. That sounds a lot like what I'm used to.

Thanks for the reply!

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by ShannonB

Cool, interesting to know that the it's the same at your school. That sounds a lot like what I'm used to.

Thanks for the reply!

Anytime.

I promptly answer questions from short people.

(like me)

[kuri]

"martial arts begins and ends with respect" - an old saying

[Faol]

I'm not sure about the standard, but my group also goes by the same guidelines - respect based on experience, which is often indicated by belt color/rank, but also on age or other factors.
Some of the students in my dojo are one or two colours removed from a white belt, and yet they show considerable composure and dedication. The rest of us may feel more comfortable with them, and often show just as much respect to them as we would to a dan belt. I agree with Chris; the norm should be respect for all, with deference to higher belts.

That said, I kind of like the practice in some Aikido (and perhaps other practices) dojos of having only two belts: white and black. ...and even then, you're always a student of someone else!

[kuri]

One club I trained at for some years had no belts yet there were few problems with respect. One of the main instructors would always take time to talk with a new person, and encourage them to watch some training. After 5 minutes of observing it's very apparent who the upper level people are.

In the three years I was there there were perhaps 1, maybe 2 people that were either not invited to come back, or couldn't take the shot to their ego and decided on their own not to continue.

In another more extreme case, once at my dojo in Japan there were a few problems with this cocky young guy who had done some boxing and thought himself some kind of street fighter. He was constantly being too aggressive with some younger students while sparring, and hurt a couple of them. The guy was talked to a few times and warned even more. Finally, one day he was getting out of hand with a smaller, younger student so my teacher invited him to spar "a little harder". My teacher promptly snapped the guy's collarbone and we never saw him again.

Clearly and explicitly explaining the tone of a school is up to the instructors, and beyond that I think it's also up to the upper level practitioners to set the tone and maintain a good environment for all to train safely.

[ShannonB]

The wing chung class that's in the room before mine has no belts either, but I know what you mean about being able to tell almost instantly who the more senior members of the class are!

So I'm getting the impression that my initial notion is correct that this belt level respect thing is pretty universal. To me it definately makes sense! Presumably all the higher levels have a lot to be learned from, so being respectful seems common sense to me.

Yikes on the collar bone though... hehe. I remember seeing a few people put in their place by the instructor back when I was a kid in Tae Kwon Do (I quit when I was 16 or so, just starting again now though.) But never a collar bone break!

Anyway, thanks for all the replies. I assume that the school where the student I referred to came from is a minority then. Or maybe it wasn't cool there either and that's why he's giving us a try! Who knows. But in any case it's very interesting to hear that most schools seem to follow this traditional respect schedule.

Thanks guys!

[BjsAust]

It was fairly relaxed in my school, but then again people gave respect because they felt they should, it was never really discussed that much. Then again if people did start getting out of line or disrespectful, one of the instructors would just "spar" with them and they soon got back in line.