Great post. I have been following this type of training for quite sometime, we had some practitioners in the Tampa area. It is always good to have the confidence to know but the foresight to walk away. Goes against my Marine mentality but not everyone deserves a whupping, just the ego-driven!
Actually it sounds like the martial arts training I received in the Marine Corps. What I received probably wasn't as involved as this but the idea of being the aggressor is ingrained in Marine tactics. For example, the Marines taught that the way to deal with an ambush was to face it and deal with it.
One note coming from someone with a lot of weapons training. If the guy holding it, knows how to use it, you better run... I don't care how you have been trained or who trained you.
the thing is everyone thinks they've seen it all so they then try to formulate in thier minds what TFT will resemble, you all have your thoughts as to what it's about, especially after hearing from us who attended it talk about it, you all put a picture in your mind I did to of course. Like for example my friend collects knives and I asked him to see one then I told him I was going to learn the proper way to use these things the following weekend, and from my impression from the website I thought I would learn some stuff like from the movie the "hunted" and boy was I wrong, again the thing is you honestly have to see it to understand why it is possible to walk away with the skill set needed and be able to use it in the face of true violence. will your technique look perfect? hell no you'll probably look terrible doing it to the guy, will you be scared when the guy puts the gun or the knife to your face? you may probably have urine running down the side of your leg, but the method is'nt important in TFT, only the results and the ultimate result is injury. They did'nt teach us how to TFT someone trying to take our lives, they taught us how to use violence, and the principles that go along with it, and if you were to take nothing else from the seminar but the principles, you'll still have a very high chance of making it through Asocial violence.
Till next time
-Lordscrub
"Seize the moment of excited curiousity on any subject to solve your doubts; for if you let it pass, the desire may never return and you may remain in ignorance. "
I haven't been through the class and I don't have any MA experience, so I'm just guessing.
But, you take what they show you and practice it. Keep it fresh. It didn't sound like they were teaching a fine tuned technique, but concepts. Do this, not that. Focus on this part of your target.
Sure, an ongoing class would be better, just like a "rape prevention class" for women would be better as a weekly class that never ended. But, you can also take what you've learned and find a way to keep reviewing the tips. Don't get complacent.
For your bench example. If you already bench some, then go to a seminar with Eric Cressey, you'll bench better afterwards. You'll be benching every week. Your form may slip some, over time. But some of the biggest things will stick with you, because you'll be practicing every week. Your bench will be better forever.
I'd be curious about the people who take TFT. Are most of them fighters to begin with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyD
Will you be better prepared after the weekend?
Lost Dog,
If you were to teach me over a weekend Bench press, squat, dead lift the odds are I will do them with poor form in a couple weeks. It's tough enough to develop a skillset with a dead weight to think I will develop a skillset against a attacking, uncooperative live assailant.
Sign your name on a piece of paper. Have someone startle you and then sign your name it will look like two different signatures and your only fighting yourself and the pen
Regular training with Target-Focus Training...Now that sounds more like an investment with a high return.
No previous martial arts background required and but they did have some guy's from different schools there as well. and your picture of what you think it is is also off.
My advise to you is to get the "works package" from the website, it has a full 1 year return no questions ask policy, also the seminar is also guarenteed up to the very last minute of the class, most only alow you to return if damaged, so there really is'nt anything to loose, I first saw the link I posted above after I wrote my last reply and again you'll see the trend in everything those that attended or got the DVD's had to say about it. As well as those that did not ( you can see that trend clearly from those in this forum)
-Till next time
Lord scrub
"People hate what they don't understand"
-unknown
Last edited by lordscrub : 11-30-2006 at 10:18 AM.
Point taken Lost Dog
By the way I am enjoying your innovations with Spon Hum Combustion.
I also live in Torrance.
I'm pretty passionate about this subject since i've seen this belief pattern many times. In fitness with say functional swiss ball type craze, Anthony Robbins' firewalkers and Martial arts.
My son learned a new take down from Bob Anderson recently. Mr Anderson is a Oly wrestling coach having trained Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Rulon Gardner ect. My son does not "own' the tech yet. We drill it together, he tries in practice ect his success rate is not very high yet. The tech is in theory solid and easy. But takes practice with increasing intensity, coaching and troubleshooting. Did I mention this is 1 techique: )
Will he pull it off this season in the competitive arena before Feb.? I'll put my money on waiting till next season. Just as I would put my money on a year of 2x a week of realistic MA training instead of a TFT weekend.
I think there is no substitute for regular training, even in a system that may be less direct than something like TFT. (And I'm speaking as someone who is in a pretty direct system, albeit with some diversity.) As BobbyD noted, there are multiple dimensions to real life situations, and the regular, ongoing training helps you build the total capability to better handle such situations.
Roland, will you be better prepared after such a weekend? Sure. The questions are, at what financial cost (a year of regular weekly classes), and then for how long (retention)? And the, retention on one's own, versus with feedback from an instructor. Someone can spend the time and money if they want, but they shouldn't fool themselves.
I think such high cost, short timeframe training options are both a martial training system and a business model. I suppose I could package up a weekend seminar, market it in a particular way, and charge a nice chunk of change for it. However, something in me cringes at doing that; I almost feel like I'd be deceiving people. I do short, usually free, seminars or classes now, but they are just intended to give some exposure and peak people's interest in regular training.
Too many people want new and improved, when they were never even willing to try old and proven.
Not a knock on your training at all Chris, I'm addressing the sort of MA schools more prevalent when I started out that had all sorts of fancy locks and disarms that likely won't work yet kept being taught because that's what so and so's master taught them.
Yet I'm also skeptical of these sorts of "tech" weekend seminars and Matt Furey-esque programs.
Paraphrasing Alwyn people tend to overreact in the short term and underreact in the long term.
What I mean is that we should constantly rethink how we train and is it effective for real conflicts (assuming that's a goal of training)? Alot of the "traditional" weapon vs empty hand stuff won't work any better than some crane strike against an MMA fighter. But though going to a weekend seminar or learning off a DVD might do some good it's foolish to think that will be enough to prepare one to disarm some thug with a knife.
Constant smart, realistic, and hard training will go a long way but as Navy Seal instructor Paul Vunak demonstrates your chances still aren't that great.
I'll take my chances in a sprint.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Constant smart, realistic, and hard training will go a long way but as Navy Seal instructor Paul Vunak demonstrates your chances still aren't that great.
I'll take my chances in a sprint.
That was not pretty...
Now, back to working my posterior chain, in hopes that Mr. Knife Guy is always slower than I am.
Point taken Lost Dog
By the way I am enjoying your innovations with Spon Hum Combustion.
I also live in Torrance.
Couldn't ask for better weather in Torrance today, eh?
I grew up around there, but I still feel like I don't know the place. Gym, hiking, beach, and home is what I know there. I need to find a place to play darts...
Kuri: I think we agree. The key word in what I said is "proven." Given how long, people have been fighting and studying the arts, I'm not sure anything is really new except in either how it is combined (what series or package of techniques one selects for their "curriculum") or how it is marketed. The stuff that works has been around a long time.
The main problem with the martial arts today is that there is more good marketing but not more good martial arts instruction. So, I am sour on anything that is the next big thing, the better mousetrap, the latest trend/fad, or the new and improved whatever. I'm not closed minded; I'm open and interested in new insights and perspectives. But, given the experience I have, I'm generally cautious, if not sour, on lots of stuff, which includes those types of seminars. But, hey, it's a free, capitalist country.
Fortunately, I believe the self-defense (one-step,etc) action I work with to be very proven. Generally very direct and brutal. I imagine a lot of it came from or was influenced by our Korean Grandmaster's military background and hand to hand combat experience. literal experience, not just training.
That said, I've always learned that if there is a knife there, you're going to get cut. The sprint is the best option. In fact, I've often felt that if the sprint seems like it isn't working or going to work, an initial run and then fast stop and counter might catch the attacker more off guard than if one just defends themself right off the bat. But, there's that "turning the back to the attacker" problem. I'll have to play around with and analyze that someday.
Not a knock on your training at all Chris, I'm addressing the sort of MA schools more prevalent when I started out that had all sorts of fancy locks and disarms that likely won't work yet kept being taught because that's what so and so's master taught them.
Yet I'm also skeptical of these sorts of "tech" weekend seminars and Matt Furey-esque programs.
Paraphrasing Alwyn people tend to overreact in the short term and underreact in the long term.
What I mean is that we should constantly rethink how we train and is it effective for real conflicts (assuming that's a goal of training)? Alot of the "traditional" weapon vs empty hand stuff won't work any better than some crane strike against an MMA fighter. But though going to a weekend seminar or learning off a DVD might do some good it's foolish to think that will be enough to prepare one to disarm some thug with a knife.
Constant smart, realistic, and hard training will go a long way but as Navy Seal instructor Paul Vunak demonstrates your chances still aren't that great.
Guys I'll try to make this my last post on the topic because I'm starting to hear some comments that may cause me to reply to and the way in which I reply to them some may find offence.
Now this question's requires no answer because I think everyone knows it, but how much hours of actual practice time does the criminal sociopath have of doing violence to another human being? unless we're talking about son of sam here, not too many. they don't go to seminars, they don't go to the gym, they don't take years of mugging classes, but yet they are incredibly effective at it, and thats because it does'nt take special training and does'nt take special knowledge of hurting another human being other than the fact that they know it can be done.
so you say that it costs to much.... what about flipping it around, which sounds more like the con, the guy who lets you know everything out of the box immediatly and shows you an easy and effective way to use it or the guy that tells you "ok next two weeks we'll be doing gun techniques" and then that night you go home and some clown comes into your house with a gun threatening your family and your there saying to yourself, dam it if he only tried this 2 weeks from now he was so dead...
When I was in Karate my instructor taught me nothing of substance that would protect me in a true act of violence until i got into black belt and from talking in other forums I'[ve heard the same from others, and yet still I learned more in that weekend than I did in my entire lifetime of training 5 days a week since I was 8 I'm now 25, did I feel like an ass after the weekend? yeah I did, because I spent my whole life trying to learn to protect myself and then some bafoon goes and upset the balance of nature and does it in a weekend, am I gullible? Maybe, but after hearing others talk about their experience with TFT suddenly I don't feel so bad
Oh P.S the guy in the vid is right about one thing, techniques arn't going to save you, but he's sstill an ass if he thinks danceing around and giving his hand will save him.
Oh P.S the guy in the vid is right about one thing, techniques arn't going to save you, but he's sstill an ass if he thinks danceing around and giving his hand will save him.
Some would say the same thing of anyone who thinks they're going to win against a gun after taking a weekend class .
Guys I'll try to make this my last post on the topic because I'm starting to hear some comments that may cause me to reply to and the way in which I reply to them some may find offence.
Now this question's requires no answer because I think everyone knows it, but how much hours of actual practice time does the criminal sociopath have of doing violence to another human being? unless we're talking about son of sam here, not too many. they don't go to seminars, they don't go to the gym, they don't take years of mugging classes, but yet they are incredibly effective at it, and thats because it does'nt take special training and does'nt take special knowledge of hurting another human being other than the fact that they know it can be done.
so you say that it costs to much.... what about flipping it around, which sounds more like the con, the guy who lets you know everything out of the box immediatly and shows you an easy and effective way to use it or the guy that tells you "ok next two weeks we'll be doing gun techniques" and then that night you go home and some clown comes into your house with a gun threatening your family and your there saying to yourself, dam it if he only tried this 2 weeks from now he was so dead...
When I was in Karate my instructor taught me nothing of substance that would protect me in a true act of violence until i got into black belt and from talking in other forums I'[ve heard the same from others, and yet still I learned more in that weekend than I did in my entire lifetime of training 5 days a week since I was 8 I'm now 25, did I feel like an ass after the weekend? yeah I did, because I spent my whole life trying to learn to protect myself and then some bafoon goes and upset the balance of nature and does it in a weekend, am I gullible? Maybe, but after hearing others talk about their experience with TFT suddenly I don't feel so bad
Oh P.S the guy in the vid is right about one thing, techniques arn't going to save you, but he's sstill an ass if he thinks danceing around and giving his hand will save him.
+I'm sorry your feeling hurt and attacked. I'm sure most of us have strong enough boundries to take any replies you may have.
About the criminal sociopath. That's a long topic on gene's and enviroment. Needless to say he/she has been years in training. For most of us to be able to deal with that person also takes expierence in as close as we can come to in that level of violence and chaos.
On price. Do your own research. There are plenty of resources out there. They did not invent anything new. I only cringe because "self defense" is a physical and emotional skill. I know of no endeavor that needs those qualities that does not need 'sharpening the saw'.
I've been thru the same road with traditional martial arts. I don't feel like an ass. I was young and didn't know any better. Just as many of us followed the programs in Muscle and Fitness Now I do my homework, choose a program try to quantify my results ect.
Oh and that ass in the vid? He also runs in the same circles as TFT.
Ps I have a long time friend/teacher who also runs in the same TFT circle. He also has product with the same type ad copy with the same production company. After reading the ad. Wow the magic of marketing I didn't even recognize him.
Hmmmm well from what I know of TFT what that guy was doing had nothing to do with the principles that TFT teach, and I hope when you refer to circles you arn't referring to military because military training does not translate into TFT.
No Tim Larkin did not invent anything new and actually it's one of the first things he says in his opening remarks at the beginning of the seminar, in his words "No one has a patent on violence" but what he does bring to the table is a clear no BS response to dealing with violence in a way that everyone can understand, I'm far from being a poet and when it comes to stating my point I don't always use the right words, like I've seen others post on the topic and I'd be better off letting those guys talk about TFT, but I know what I saw and I also know a lot of the other stuff thats out there and I can safely say that there is nothing like it, is it mass hysteria brought on by the fact that he brain washed everyone that went to his training maybe, but if that was the case then his bullshit was stronger than anyone else out there.
To this day I have never read a single internet post about TFT from a person that attended a seminar saying that it was a waste of money, in fact they go to the other end of the board by saying they would have gladly paid double what they charged after realising what was given to them, don't believe me? google it. I myself would have paid 5 times it's value price, if I had that kind of money of course :-)
On the topic of thier marketing approach I can't argue with you, what ever company they went with was a bad choice, because the site does not accuratly represent what they are about, I'm not going to lie to you, it's poor, but I guess after seeing what TFT is about you realise that, hell they talk the talk and they can certainly back it up. Why does EVERYONE give this system so much praise after experiencing it? why don't you check it out for yourself.
Scrub: Don't get too frustrated. Seeing is believing and what we have is here is a case of someone seeing and believing, and nobody here having that opportunity/advantage. We're differing, and discussing, not really attacking.
I have my own cautions, and perhaps part of them are a bias since I, intentionally or not, want to justisfy my own experience, which has cost me much money and time over the years, but I hope I am at least somewhat beyond that, and can just see things clearly, or for what they are. I speak and see from 13+ straight years of experience, which is a bit, but in my context of instructors, is also nothing. "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." or something like that.
I can believe that Tim Larkin presents a package of info in such a way that it is clear and simplified, and that it can be effective, at least if practiced. Whether or not someone wants to pay a certain amount of money for it, and whether or not they feel they get value, is their business.
My feelings, cautions, and assumptions are these, perhaps:
1. There is no substitute for regular training
2. There is essentially nothing new under the sun (but there can be teachers/presenters that show some stuff in new ways).
3. People (American, at least) wants shorcuts: the best info in one DVD, the one exercise to fix a complex problem or that solves it faster than is possible, the weekend seminar that cuts through the BS and shows the best stuff
4. People (American, at least) tend to be attracted to new stuff, "neat stuff" ("look at all the pretty lights" LOL)
5. From the perspective of an instructor that tries to help people see the value in both regular (i.e. ongoing) martial arts training, and who knows the value of the particular system that he is teaching, it is somewhat irksome to have people jump at something new, quick and easy like TFT.
I would not say that it's out of the question that I would take in a TFT seminar as part of my contuining education. However, in comparison, I will later next year take part in my second training trip to Korea, 10 days, led by our top Korean grandmaster and including instructors hand picked by him. I will be accompanied by 10 other black belts, ranks of master instructor on down. The experience amounts to a mini-boot-camp, with martial arts instruction thorughout the day. Cost: probably $3,000-$3,500.
So, laying out the money for a TFT seminar weekend, in comparison, falls lower on my value scale, both in terms of dollars and benefit.
Particularly for an untrained person looking for a quicker, easier way to get some essential info, prehaps TFT is just the ticket and has value. Even for some trained people, depending on their background. Who knows, maybe for anyone. But, we're just discussing and debating.
Words are what we have to work with here. We have to work hard to make them work well. I do get lazy at times, though. It's too much work. I used up the day's worth of meaningful posting effort with that one. All the rest were fluff. LOL
When I mean circles: Tim Larkin, Paul Vunak(that guy in video) Tony Blauer all teach similar material, network with same groups and compare notes.
Tony Blauer has taught at my own gym. He was very cerebral and you will find his approach appealing. Paul Vunak; I have training partners who are instructors in his system.
well I have no clue what Paul brings to the table but after watching how he would handle a knife attack I'm a bit skeptical that They would be comparing notes. That looks like a preety old vid and I guess if he changed his approach to dealing with weapons within the time then I can see them getting together for a cup of joe or something :-) just kidding but I think while we're on the topic we could probably discuss that vid if you guys are up for it.
What are your views to the principles that he brought foward to dealing with the knife attacker and also what are the principles associated with the system in which you train as it deals with edged weapons?
I've never trained with Paul Vunak but know that he is a long time student of Dan Inosanto, without a doubt one of the best weapons guys in the Western Hemisphere.
Talk about proven experience, aside from Vunak being an instructor to the Navy Seals and other Spec Ops, being associated with Inosanto means access to true Filipino masters. If you know anything about short blades they are some of the best, if not the best practitioners out there.
So yeah I'll wager that his training is based on rock solid principles.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
The best defense against a knife fight is not to get into one. If you do, your going to get cut. All these disarms that they teach are BS. Even a gun (holstered) against a knife is worthless without at lest 20+feet of distance between you and the attacker.
The idea that you can learn to defend yourself against a violent attack (and against somone who is more than likely prone to violence, who has been in many violent situations ) in a few sessions is crap. If you think that you can deliver a pinpoint attack against a charging attacker under duress with a few hours of training, you're high.
Is it better than nothing? Sure, but walking away, running or not getting yourself in the situation is better.
These "seminars" give people a false sense of security that could get them in a bad situation that they thought they could handle when they should have walked away.
I am pretty well versed, but truth be told, I would rather carry a handgun for "emergencies".
__________________
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
I took that video as intending illustrate the danger and potential damage of the knife attack, and not at all illustrate any principles of defense.
The defender in that video is doing neither of the two things I would hope to be able to do: either get the hell out of there (he wasn't trapped in a corner) -- my enormous preference -- or act fast, i.e, take the risk, parry and counterattack, as early as possible. He danced around an awefully long time. Realistically, if he didn't do anything by 30 seconds, the attack wasn't going to stop. If one cannot run for some reason, and if one if going to get slashed worse the longer the attack goes on, you'd better do something fast. So, perhaps my basic principles, in order, are:
Avoid (in the first place)
Evade (RUN!)
Counter/parry and attack back (EDIT: as soon as the best-you-can-judge possible)
Linear Mode
