I think to some extent you missed my point ( or did not address it directly), what I intended to say is that his comments about maryial arts sound like he doesn't know anything about martial arts or the type of martial arts he studied were pretty lame. So it goes to follow that his following comments about who great this system is should/could be taken with a grain of salt.
Perhaps what he is saying about the system is true, but prefacing with what is essential nonsense about M. A. affects his credibility, wouldn't you say?
Peter
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Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
I think to some extent you missed my point ( or did not address it directly), what I intended to say is that his comments about maryial arts sound like he doesn't know anything about martial arts or the type of martial arts he studied were pretty lame. So it goes to follow that his following comments about who great this system is should/could be taken with a grain of salt.
Perhaps what he is saying about the system is true, but prefacing with what is essential nonsense about M. A. affects his credibility, wouldn't you say?
Peter
Peter:
Yep, I sure did miss your point. And I tend to agree, but, of course, Idon't know his background and training. People, experienced/trained and not, all have such a big variety of perspectives & perceptions on their training and on martial arts in general. So often much of that is classic preconceptions, as opposed to the perceptions and undestanding one gets from hours in the dojang week-in/week-out, year-in/year out. Training in several arts over the last 10 year might not necessarily make his assessment valid (or it might; I don't know). "Several arts over 10 years" might be the problem!
The snippet you posted also might be a bit of a marketing comment ("what you've studied so far is silly shit; come study this perfect thing I have/done . . .").
Back to the hard wiring, I do think that our reactions get hard wired, but that we can have multiple reactions ready to use. I told you my tendencies for reacting/hardwiring, but I do think that good training over time trains us and helps us to react to what's going on, which means we have multiple responses at our disposal, even if some are a bit more automatic than others. In a sense, they all have to become hardwired, but all be at our disposal. In reacting, one ends up thinking (& choosing) without thinking.
[quote]Originally posted by nanook: If Chad's statements about his martial arts experience make you question the system he is endorsing, just look at the website of that system.
I know nothing about this specific product. But my experiences show that ability to market, and quality of product are not always related. There is a very large internet marketing package/style that shows good results, so those who can't market or sell themselves, all end up with a page very similar to that one. Regardless of what, or how good their product is. I have seen a product that contained a collection of programs written/developed by Bill Hartman, by Alwyn Cosgrove, Mike Mejia, and others on the exact same marketing format. I do NOT think the product is worthless. I know nothing about the product, but I am not going to assume that it is bad just because whoever is selling it choose to outsource the marketing to a popular format. I think Ryan Lee has something to do with this marketing style.
Buk,
So you believe that a person selling a product has no personal responsibility on how that product is marketed. Just hire someone to market your product and let them say whatever they want, as long as it sells. The only way this type of ad can even exist is because of the international nature of the internet. There is little government control on what can be said. Below is a link for one of Ross Enamait's products. This is how a product should be marketed. It is a good product, marketed honestly.
Peter, I too did miss your point. I hadn't looked at the TFT site - but now that I have... ditto Correia's sentiments.
I know guys who train Navy Seals & the LAPD - and they don't use such marketing language. Those in that world know who the real cats are.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Please don't tell me what I believe. I said nothing about personal responsibility. I am saying that how a product is sold does not necessarily represent its quality.
Quote:
This is my basic statement above: But my experiences show that ability to market, and quality of product are not always related.
I did not try to defend the marketer, or the seller, just caution the IMMEDIATE idea that a product is crap because the way it is marketed. That marketing style has produced good numbers for many products, so some people who have or think they will fail with their own marketing efforts turn to it for help. This does not affect the quality of the product.
I like the marketing of the link you posted much better thatn the TFT page. But I don't think that there is anything on the TFT page that should be under "Government Control." To me it is very aggressive and in your face marketing. Most(me included) don't like it, but it is a proven technique.
Many good products and services are marketed poorly (meaning ineffectively, whether in good or bad taste). Many poor products and services are marketed well (often effectively, and even in good taste, perhaps, but perhaps in bad taste). I don't know for sure the quality of the TFT service, since I've not experienced it, but I do think the types of statements made on that site are in poor taste (at best) -- particularly since we're talking about personal safety issues here. It's the same type of marketing hype language that that's used for sexual ehancement products: "You're not giving your woman as full pleasure as her last lover if you don't take this product; it's GUARANTEED to solve all of your physical and psycological (insecurity) sexual woes." But we don't need government oversight; it's simply the usual situation of caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).
Buk is right about that format and style web site; I've noticed it a lot, particularly the past year or so. The result is that I tend to not even read through a site if it looks that way, even if it's from someone I believe to be credible.
One of my higher master instructors, when talking to some of us instructors under him a while back, commented that there is a tremendous emphasis these days on MARKETING the martial arts, and very little on offering quality martial arts. So the public, as with many things, often chooses what's marketed well. Those of us who are serious about offering good training in the martial way aren't too concerned with marketing. In fact, it almost seems wrong to focus too much on marketing, and certainly so to market what we offer in a way that sounds like herbal viagra alternative, and to focus on people's deepest insecurities and promise them the world. In fact, if we truly want to do the best for our students, I think we will often do something that is not necessarily best for "business."
The things that are most worth it often take the most time.
I guess we will have to disagree. I believe that a person selling a product is directly responsible on how that product is marketed. If the ad contains statements that, while maybe not lies, are severely distorted truths, that to me speaks to the personal integrity of the person selling the product. I couldn't sell a product like that and I wouldn't buy a product from someone who sells like that.
Chris- Speaking of marketing, here is a good martial arts marketing plan, to make you rich.
We do not have to disagree. I am not trying to argue, just explain what I was trying to say. Apparently I was very misunderstood. Please remember, I never said anything about the "personal integrity of the person selling the product," or that a person selling a product shouldn't take responsibility in how it is marketed. I said the quality of the product is not always related the the quality of the marketing. And I will add that the quality of a product is not always related to the integrity of the seller. There are some products marketed in the same manner that aren't worthless.
I tend to fall between Buk and nanook, but I think that Buk is more on the don't judge a book by itys cover, but I do lean towards nanook that if the author tends to allow the huslte sale you might be better served going elsewhere, and the author who generally has some control is creep. I think that in the extreme circumstances like this one I would go with nanook, BUT there are many less extreme examples of as BUK said bad marketting, There is a differece between fear mongering and lying and bad marketting and in this context I am with Buk.
I need to get my own opinion LOL
But I do havbe one actually, the product in this case may be good (or it may not) but it is marketed not only badly but in a "sleazy" fashion (to be kind) and it is endorsed by CW who's endorsement sounds like he does not know much about martial arts and the product that he is cheapenning his name by endorsing. Whoa! how's that for an opinion.
I have heard mostly good things about CB so this endorsement surpised me, what is it a favor for a buddy?
Peter
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Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
The Dog Brothers , a collective of Martial Artists in LA use what in my opinion is solid "marketing" - that is they back up what they teach with examples of real world application- in this case them fighting in full contact matches (with weapons and empty hand).
DEFINITELY check out the video clips.
There are no claims of "10 easy steps to disarm anyone" etc... Just training, training, and more training. Anyone with experience knows that there can be no substitution.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Man, I need to do some editing. I didn't realize how "raw" that article was until I re-read it on this forum. Yes, the three years that's past since that article was written has been an eductational experience within the realms of article design.
Nevertheless, the system is now even better than when I took it. Check it out, and tell Tim I sent ya.
I should throw in my two cents, since I attended one of Tim’s seminars. If I had not taken the seminar, and I had to judge TFT by the internet advertisement alone, I would also be very skeptical. In fact, one of my comments after the seminar was “change your website – it gives a very seedy impression”.
That being said, the three days I spent in that seminar provided a new level of thinking and knowledge that I’ll be able to use the rest of my life. It was a paradigm shift.
I was invited to join the TFT seminar when it came through Dallas by John Berardi, who is a friend of Tim Larkin (more proof that JB knows everyone). I was not persuaded after viewing the web page, but I decided to trust JB’s recommendations.
Now, I’ve done a pretty good job of avoiding violence during my life, so you might wonder why I decided to take this seminar in the first place. Well, like any of us, I don’t like the idea of being victimized by someone intent on causing me harm. As a pre-teen, I took 2 years of formal training in the martial arts. I got a lot out of it, in terms of discipline, self-control, and physical fitness. But it turns out that it didn’t prepare me for real-life self defense.
When I was 20 years old, my friend and I were walking through a grocery store parking lot when an old beat up station wagon drove up beside us. The car was full of 18 year old guys looking for trouble. A guy in the back seat rolled down his window and called us a “couple of fags”. Looking back, this alone is humorous. What a childish, ridiculous situation. But what happened next was anything but humorous. My lifetime friend, who was always more rebellious than I, lipped back something along the lines of “fuck you”. All the doors flew open, and 5 guys jumped us. I got knocked to the ground and pinned by the driver, and I watched helpless as the other four guys beat my friend to a bloody pulp. He did manage to get in a couple of good hits before they brought him down. They even beat him with a baseball bat a couple of times before jumping back into the car and speeding off. My friend had to spend the night in the hospital, and was bedridden for a week. This situation went beyond ‘social violence’, such as a bar fight when the goal is to see who’s the bigger man. Sure, it started as childish social name-calling, but it turned non-social when the goal changed to causing serious harm to my friend for no other reason than violence alone.
That was my first (and hopefully only) first-hand experience with meaningless violence. It’s a painful memory and one that I’m not proud of, but it made me realize some things. First, my martial arts training didn’t work [img]smile.gif[/img] Now, I want to make it very clear that I’m not saying that martial arts training is useless, for self-defense or otherwise. On the contrary, Chris Correia sounds like he would be an awesome person to train with.
But my personal training didn’t help me at all. When the guys jumped out of the car, I got into a defensive stance and tried to block the first punch thrown at me. The guy was immediately on top of me and completely in control.
Which brings me to my second realization: fighting is not necessarily about good form, physical capability, or agility. Sure, these things help, but fighting is about hurting people. Period. I was woefully ill-prepared to actually hurt anyone.
That’s exactly what TFT teaches you: the most effective and efficient ways to hurt someone. There are several vulnerable parts of the human body. Knowing how to strike these areas to initiate injury, together with the principles of leverage and physical dynamics, is what TFT is all about.
So with some reservation, I showed up at eight in the morning for the first day of Tim’s seminar. Two days later I was exhausted and bruised, but certain that I knew the most effective ways to injure, incapacitate, and even kill a person. Disturbing thought? You bet. Nobody in their right mind finds pleasure in the thought of removing someone’s eyeball with your thumb, or crushing someone’s trachea. But these are effective means of survival when faced with a nonsocial violent situation. Violence is what you need when someone wants to hurt or kill you. They made it explicitly clear that these techniques are not to be used in bar fights, or other social violence. It also stands to reason that you wouldn’t use a gun in a 'social' bar fight, unless you’re a sociopath.
All weekend was spent learning how to initiate a strike in a vulnerable area, and then exploiting predictable reactions to repeatedly cause injuries. The basic premise is that you will know if and when you find yourself in situation of nonsocial violence, and you initiate violence to cause the first injury. The first person to be injured in a fight will almost always lose.
Repeatedly going through the motions, you learn to pick a target, strike it, continually stepping into the person, taking his balance and dominating his space. Uncertainty is replaced with decisive action, and a successful injury always opens up a new target by the reaction of the person to that injury.
Besides Tim, there were two instructors. They were not a couple of guys out to make some money. Rather, they were extremely knowledgeable, intense, humorous, and excellent teachers. Both were principled men who were doing this because they believed in it. If they didn’t believe that they could teach the most effective principles and methods of fighting in a weekend seminar, then they wouldn’t have been there.
Here are a few pictures that I took during the seminar.
In my experience, and in the experience of all of the seminar attendees, Target Focus Training does a great job in teaching you effective means of offensive combat. Tim likens the skill of fighting to swimming. Once you learn how, you don’t forget. Sure, an Olympic swimmer will always beat a layperson in a race, but neither will drown under normal conditions.
Knowing what I know now, what would I have done differently when I was 20 years old and the car full of thugs drove up? I would have grabbed my friend and got the hell out of there before they could jump out of the car. Or even yelling something like "OH! Don't hurt me!" to attract attention from people in the store [img]smile.gif[/img] I just don’t have the stomach for violence. But at least I know how to effectively cause violence if I ever find myself in a situation where I can’t escape it.
Thanks for sharing that, John. I regret to hear of that event. OTOH, I'm glad to hear things turned out as well as they did, as they could have been remarkably worse. I pray none of us ends up in a situation where we have to consider using a response sufficient to deal with such an attack!
Been reading this with interest but feel I need to share something after Johnka's post.
I have been training since I was about 17 (34 now). Originally in Wado Ryu and then some boxing and kick boxing - I should note it wasn't a typical Wado school - Bunkai/application was extremly prevelant compared to sport orientated organisations.
And now I'm not really a small guy having been quite serious about the weights for the last several years.
Last January I came accross a group of 7 guys trying to start a fight with one bloke. They were all about 17 and weedy so I had no compunction about stepping in.
I thought a little common sense combined with a confident delivery would diffuse the situation the way it has for me in many situations in the past, without the need for violence.
Unfortunately they proceeded to jump me and knock the original victim out. Some shopkeepers dragged the unconscious guy into their shop and locked the door while I was left swinging one of the attackers around like a shield.
It was very embarasing, as although not really hurt I did end up with a truly ridiculous pair of black eyes, which meant I had to take a week off work.
The problem there, was that I was absolutely sure I could have kept all these guys off me - but only by really hurting someone, a kid, so I took the hits instead.
So....these techniques...and the attitude you are discussing worries me a great deal. The human body in all reality is a pretty frail thing. More than once I've read or heard of people being killed by one punch from a layman in a streetfight. How much more likely when you are trained for this and are trained to hit first once you are sure a conflict is likely?
Does no one worry about the legal implications? The start of Con Air is dead cool and everything, but I really think I'd rather take a couple of digs than spend time afraid of the soap.
Of course if they had of been big guys it might have been different...
__________________
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
Originally posted by Irishdazza: Been reading this with interest but feel I need to share something after Johnka's post.
I have been training since I was about 17 (34 now). Originally in Wado Ryu and then some boxing and kick boxing - I should note it wasn't a typical Wado school - Bunkai/application was extremly prevelant compared to sport orientated organisations.
And now I'm not really a small guy having been quite serious about the weights for the last several years.
Last January I came accross a group of 7 guys trying to start a fight with one bloke. They were all about 17 and weedy so I had no compunction about stepping in.
I thought a little common sense combined with a confident delivery would diffuse the situation the way it has for me in many situations in the past, without the need for violence.
Unfortunately they proceeded to jump me and knock the original victim out. Some shopkeepers dragged the unconscious guy into their shop and locked the door while I was left swinging one of the attackers around like a shield.
It was very embarasing, as although not really hurt I did end up with a truly ridiculous pair of black eyes, which meant I had to take a week off work.
The problem there, was that I was absolutely sure I could have kept all these guys off me - but only by really hurting someone, a kid, so I took the hits instead.
So....these techniques...and the attitude you are discussing worries me a great deal. The human body in all reality is a pretty frail thing. More than once I've read or heard of people being killed by one punch from a layman in a streetfight. How much more likely when you are trained for this and are trained to hit first once you are sure a conflict is likely?
Does no one worry about the legal implications? The start of Con Air is dead cool and everything, but I really think I'd rather take a couple of digs than spend time afraid of the soap.
Of course if they had of been big guys it might have been different...
Irishdazza, the thought of you batting around a bunch of 17 year old thugs with one of their buddies is great [img]smile.gif[/img]
Your point is well taken, and that's why I tried to make it clear that there's a difference between social and nonsocial violence. My story wasn't meant to serve as an example of a situation where TFT would have come in handy. Rather, it was just an eye opener to me when I was younger that if other people wanted to do me harm, then they could do so. And apparently very easily. I was very scrawny back then too, and I began lifting weights shortly thereafter (I can't remember if that was the actual reason).
As I mentioned, if I had to go back to that situation again, I would have found a way to avoid the confrontation. We were all young and stupid, and there was a chance for their comments to be simply ignored.
What I've noticed since then is that a little muscle goes a long way in preventing people from messing with you anyway. When I was young and very skinny, people would talk trash to me all the time. It just doesn't happen any more. I'm sure there's more to it than muscle - the confidence that comes with maturity also helps.
Your concern is exactly why I took the seminar. Yes, it is easy to disable or even kill a person with your bare hands. It's a frightening thought, but something that is important to know if you have a fleeting chance of surviving nonsocial violence. I will avoid violence at all costs unless my life is at stake, or the life of someone I love.
I think you did just the right thing in your situation, and I wish there were more people out there like you.
Yes, it is easy to disable or even kill a person with your bare hands. It's a frightening thought, but something that is important to know if you have a fleeting chance of surviving nonsocial violence.
Good posts here. Johnka is right on.
The more I trained the more repulsive the thought of hurting someone became. One does realize through practical experience how little it really takes to injure another, which is why as I trained longer I consciously made greater efforts not to put myself in situations in which the possibility of violence could occur. Miyagi was right, best defense is no be there
While growing up I had been threatened with bats, bottles, etc...many times, but luckily none of them were criminals but just macho jerks. I was smaller then and probably looked like a good target. They were wrong. Nevertheless when I'm in a similar social situation now I never have any trouble, no doubt due to the fact that I'm 60 lbs. bigger, more confident, and easy going.
That said, when confronted with a serious situation you had better know ways in which to deal with it be it verbally or physically. And if push comes to shove having the knowledge to end it fast may actually prevent the situation from deteriorating to that level.
Correia- in your dojang do you deal with verbal strategies in dealing with mugging situations?
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Since I'm a small guy, I don't want to have to try to do things that won't hurt the other guy. Those things are really hard to pull off against anyone in an active/agressive situation. So, I will go to great lengths to avoid the confrontation, since I know if it really comes down to a serious fight, and I want to be hurt as little as possible, I would have to pull off some very hurtful stuff. I don't want to do that.
Kuri: We do talk about that some, but I'm not well versed in what some experts might feel are the best types of verbal responses in various situations. I mostly address that topic based on my own experiences and impressions. I know that in the case of women being accosted, it is often suggested that the woman be verbally strong/powerful/agressive because it can be disarming to a male agressor (plus it draws attention to the situation). The male on male stuff is a bit more tricky; different dynamics, personalities and expectation. But, I've always been pretty good at talking my way out of difficult situations. Heck, in high school, I used to taunt opposing fans into near fights that I then had to talk my way out of, so I wouldn't get my ass kicked!
Hmmm . . . I think I'll do some research tomorrow & Thursday and cover this a bit in my Thurs nite classes.
Chris: Various people I've trained with have handled mugging situations in different ways, but one commonality is that as they matured, more say they would just give them their wallet rather than risk violence - and these are guys who can really handle themselves.
I would likely do the same because you never know what may result if violence escalates.
In any case I think it's worth thinking about and talking with students.
btw I used to taunt rednecks on occasion as well in order to provoke a test in the Okinawan tradition
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
...black belt in the 100m dash (or Used Car salesman of the year)is the most preferable talent!
__________________
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. -- Sidney J. Harris
ok I thought one of the other guys that went to the seminar would have answered the question posted about is it possible to learn all that he claims and more importantly remember when the time arrives in just 2 1/2 days?
The answer is yes and I'll tell you why. Unlike other systems which try to create senarios and then give you a technique for said senario, TFT is different where in you don' t spend time finding ways to counter for everyway the guy will come at you because that would litterally take years, lots of years, but rather they simply give you the targets, what effects a strike to those targets will have (does'nt take much to understand it, not like your preparing for a doctor's exam), you then learn the different ways in which you can hit those targets from different orientations on the body. and last but not least you learn how to properly imploy your body weight behind each of those strikes, which eliminates physical ability right away (believe me its true)
Now duh no one would believe this stuff until you see it I know, I was really skeptical about it until I decided to order the free DVD they offer on the site (yes it is actually free, no catches, you just pay something like 5 bucks for shipping)
I mean if I trained my whole life to make it to the olympics in swimming and then theres a guy who claims he can give you the skill set to qualify for it in just 2 days, I would say he was a quack, but then if my kids came back to me and said coach coach I dropped my time by like 20 secs in just 2 days, I'd still think he was a quack but I would no doubt have to check him out to see it with my own 2 eyes. which is what you guys should do. order the free DVD I promise you wont regret it.
Real confrontations occur in the three Dimensional world and all fights involve the dimensions of the body/mind system (emotional, psychological & physical). In a real incident, sensory overload accounts for more fear, doubt and hesitation than the actual attack. The punch, tackle, shove is a one-dimensional obstacle that, in a vacuum, is fairly easy to defeat, but overload the intended recipient with emotions and thoughts outside the dojo, the ring, the tournament and many feel the pressure.
Real confrontations occur in the three Dimensional world and all fights involve the dimensions of the body/mind system (emotional, psychological & physical). In a real incident, sensory overload accounts for more fear, doubt and hesitation than the actual attack. The punch, tackle, shove is a one-dimensional obstacle that, in a vacuum, is fairly easy to defeat, but overload the intended recipient with emotions and thoughts outside the dojo, the ring, the tournament and many feel the pressure.
Will i be prepared in a weekend?
Ok what I mentioned was just the pysical side to it, and that really did'nt do the course justice, but I tell you now it's like nothing you have ever seen or been taught before in a way that you could not even imagine existed. I shit you not every single question that you can think of, you will get an answer that will satisfy you. I know I may sound like a fanatic and thats fine, but thats how you feel after the course because its like someone just showed you the matrix, and you want to pull the blind off of everyone elses eyes.
Oh Ps I don't know how much respect you have for this guy because I know he pisses a lot of people off with his no bullshit attitude but then gain's respect for it by others but what ever the case if u want you can check out what he had to say about the course. And you'll notice that there seems to be a trend in everyone's take on the seminar, well all refer to it as eye opening. http://www.mattfurey.com/weapons.html
Last edited by lordscrub : 11-29-2006 at 08:18 AM.
If you were to teach me over a weekend Bench press, squat, dead lift the odds are I will do them with poor form in a couple weeks. It's tough enough to develop a skillset with a dead weight to think I will develop a skillset against a attacking, uncooperative live assailant.
Sign your name on a piece of paper. Have someone startle you and then sign your name it will look like two different signatures and your only fighting yourself and the pen
Regular training with Target-Focus Training...Now that sounds more like an investment with a high return.
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