Alwyn Writes a Good One.

[Jean-Paul]

Well said, Horse. It's not like you're buying a paperback novel. You are paying for all the years of accumulated knowledge of one of the nation's best minds in this industry. Probably worth twice as much (but don't get any ideas)!

I also got Alwyn's martial arts book, which is also excellent and packed with useful information. In fact, as a non-martial artist I found a lot in that book that was applicable to my clients.

Not to mention that Alwyn actually reads the posts in here and will occasionally chime in when someone is on one of his programs. I've paid thousands of dollars to go to seminars and improve my training skills, and I honestly get more from books like this, or Bill's golf video than I got from my last seminar (ACSM's Health and Fitness Summit in Las Vegas last April/May). I don't even want to tell you what I spent on that trip! That's not even including what I lost at the blackjack tables!

[gobbla]

horse- In order to avoid arguments on the board it's important to look at the context when you qoute someone. When I said e-books are "rarely worth it" the next two words were "to me". Which means one person out of the population of the world. You...seem to like e-books. More power to you. That doesn't make me wrong, or you wrong, or sean, lod, ect. We have different ideas of what a products value is.

As far as presentation not being important from a strict information perspective, you're absolutely correct. HOWEVER...you'll notice many people get e-books printed and bound...why? Because they like them better that way! The information is the same...books on audio...same information...sign language...same information...moris code...same information. Some people "prefer" printed books to smoke signals. It doesn't make books inherently better, it just means that they're better to that individual person. That's why I don't think it's fair to criticize someone for having a different perspective of what a product is worth.

Compairing an e-book to a training session, is logical, but not necissarily accurate. You're comparing it for information from program=session perspective vs a book=book perspective. To make it an actually fair you'd have to compair "afterburn" to "TT". Any takers?

Alwyn's\Lou's Bound Book

[LeafofDeath]

I think a few of you may be missing my primary point.

No one is denying that 16 weeks of training written by someone like Alwyn is a thing of value. However, when I compare it to similar products available, I felt it was a mistake for me to spend that much money. I compare the product to similar books that were not only cheaper, but a superior product in my mind (Book of Muscle and S2B). Not only are these books longer, with much more information (some of it new to me, which I cannot say for Afterburn), they are also a physical product that I can put on my bookshelf - which has its own value to me.

I am aware that there are few, if any, new things out there. I don't expect brand new information that the world has never seen before, but I do hope for information that is new to me. For example, I bought Gourmet Nutrition (which if I recall was also outrageously priced - which as you say is the going rate for E-books). There are no new ways to cook a Turkey, but Gourmet Nutrition taught me to cook Turkey in a way I had never thought of before So I was happy with the product overall, although I still think that e-book authors charge way too much.

The fact is, Afterburn is only 116 pages. It contains 16 weeks of programs and sample nutrition. Many of these pages are repetition of information already presented: ie half a page of pictures demonstrating bulgarian split squats - useful the first time, but just taking up space by the 3rd or 4th time you see the exact same pictures and description repeated. Multiple pages that are not even fully utilized, for example page 103 which is only half a page of information demonstrating seated shoulder press. And there is no chapter or section break to justify half a page of white space. Once you cut out all the wasted space and repeated information, you have a product that is - at the most - 75 pages long.

If I had been able to peruse the E-book before purchasing it, there is absolutely no way in hell I would have bought it. That makes it a waste of money for me. I do feel ripped off, but I'm also angry at myself for falling for a classic marketing technique: charge a lot of money and create a perceived value in the product, because it must be worth a lot if someone is charging that much for it!

It bears repeating that I respect Alwyn. I respect the Afterburn program. If I had the option of spending $200 for a private session in real life with him, I would probably spend it, because he would be capable of accessing my strengths/weaknesses and recommending a tailored program that is unique to me. But in this world of capitalism and competition, this particular product is not worth $40 to me. Its competition in the market blows it away. I can get more information (from other quality sources) for cheaper or free.

[LeafofDeath]

And for the record, I almost certainly will be buying Alwyn/Lou's new book. It's twice as long and half the price, and I'm sure it also contains professionally designed programs by Alwyn So as you can see, Alwyn's own product blows Afterburn out of the water. So why is it so surprising that I was disappointed?

[dos]

I'm totally confused as to what you are saying. Guess you really can't make everybody happy huh? BTW, How do you know if Alwyn's programs in the upcoming book will 'blow afterburn out of the water'?

Its competition in the market blows it away. I can get more information (from other quality sources) for cheaper or free.

So you're saying that Alwyn's Afterburn sucks right? I mean, if there are literally tons of programs out there that 'blow it away', it isn't saying much for his program. I just don't think you know whether you think he knows his shit or not.

[Horse]

Originally posted by LeafofDeath:
I think a few of you may be missing my primary point.

No one is denying that 16 weeks of training written by someone like Alwyn is a thing of value. However, when I compare it to similar products available, I felt it was a mistake for me to spend that much money.

It was $2.50 per week. $40. It's not a lot of money - I'm sorry but it's really not.

Not only are these books longer, with much more information (some of it new to me, which I cannot say for Afterburn), they are also a physical product that I can put on my bookshelf - which has its own value to me.

Understood. But you're still caught up with how long the info is. I'm still waiting to see the results you got from the Afterburn program (I'm starting it Monday). It's a fat loss program. You must have bought it because you are wanting to lose fat. How much fat have you lost following the program? Has that been worth $40?

It seems that rather by judging the program by it's effectiveness, you've judged it by how many pages the book is.

I judge products by their EFFECTIVENESS, not how "long" they are.

I am aware that there are few, if any, new things out there. I don't expect brand new information that the world has never seen before, but I do hope for information that is new to me. For example, I bought Gourmet Nutrition (which if I recall was also outrageously priced - which as you say is the going rate for E-books). There are no new ways to cook a Turkey, but Gourmet Nutrition taught me to cook Turkey in a way I had never thought of before So I was happy with the product overall, although I still think that e-book authors charge way too much..

So all those products would be worth more if the authors went to Kinkos and had the books bound? Come on....

The fact is, Afterburn is only 116 pages. It contains 16 weeks of programs and sample nutrition. .

If you printed that same 16 weeks of information in 16 pages - would it be worth less? If it was printed over 500 pages - is it worth more? It's the same information. You're paying for the information.

If you already knew it all I understand. But there wasn't ONE thing you learned? Craig Ballantyne who is the author of a competing product likes Alwyn's stuff. I'm sure those guys learn from each other all the time. From reading Bill's posts, and JP's it seems that good trainers like them learn things from Alwyn. There was nothing there that you learned at all ?

And besides that - it's not marketed as a textbook - it's marketed as a fat loss program. And in my opinion, that's EXACTLY what you got. And when you get exactly that - 16 weeks with a periodized weight training, cardio AND nutrition program - it's worth $40.

Once you cut out all the wasted space and repeated information, you have a product that is - at the most - 75 pages long..

Why is the length so important to you? Again - if it was the same information in 16 pages - it is still a 16 week fat loss program.

I've bought a marketing package from Dan Kennedy (who is the #1 marketing expert - my field) that consisted of 6 cd's. It was $1500. And it was worth every penny.

I've also bought $20 books from Barnes and Noble and been very disappointed in them.

And again - it was not marketed as an educational textbook - it was marketed as a fat loss program. Did you get what you paid for (ie a fat loss program)? I think you did.

If I had been able to peruse the E-book before purchasing it, there is absolutely no way in hell I would have bought it. That makes it a waste of money for me. I do feel ripped off, but I'm also angry at myself for falling for a classic marketing technique: charge a lot of money and create a perceived value in the product, because it must be worth a lot if someone is charging that much for it!.

I've actually emailed Alwyn (or his company) a link to this thread. I'm assuming you asked him for a refund as you were so disappointed before posting this here. (If not, that's a pretty shitty move).

As far as "classic marketing techniques" go - you're correct. But the market determines how much a product can go for. That's why you see a product such as Paul Chek's Primal Patterns go for $81. The manual is 30 pages long by the way but it comes with a video of the same lecture.

But in this world of capitalism and competition, this particular product is not worth $40 to me. Its competition in the market blows it away. I can get more information (from other quality sources) for cheaper or free.

Craig's product (turbulence training) is excellent. It's $37. I think it's about the same length as Alwyn's book. I'm not pitting those guys against each other but it's clear that the $35-40 range is what the market suggests is optimal for a FAT LOSS PROGRAM.

As gobbla righly pointed out to me, you can't compare apples and oranges. A book published and marketed by a major publisher that is in the mainstream CANNOT be compared to a self published ebook. And that's what you are doing. (i was guilty of that in my last post so I apologize).

Scrawny to Brawny is billed as the "complete guide to building muscle the natural way". I'd be bummed if all I got was a program. Afterburn has never been marketed as anything other than a 16 week fat loss program. I'd be bummed if that's not what was delivered, but it is EXACTLY what it is billed as.

Don't let the message delivery system (ie an ebook vs a hardbound book) get in the way of the message.

Again - what were your results from the program?
Because maybe there is something different about it when you actually do it.

(I'm sorry if i come across as a wild woman -I'm really sweet in person!)

[dos]

Pretty funny how one would think that $40 is expensive for a program. I have a 12 week volleyball lifting program that is for sale on another website that sells for $19.95 per 12 week session (levels 1-2-3) or you can get all of them for $39.95.

What do you get, You get a spreadsheet with exercises and periodization, period. You would be terribly dissapointed with my program since it would come out to a whopping 9 pages with 4 weeks of training on each spread sheet page (3 pages for each level)...YIKES what a rip-off! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Jean-Paul]

Like you said, Dos, you can't please everyone.

Back to the main topic, I loved the point of the original article. I speak to groups every week it seems, and there were a few things that I want to include in my presentations as far as a general approach to building a routine.

I'm hoping to see Alwyn live and in person some day so I can shamelessly steal even more ideas from him!

Just kidding Alwyn (if you're reading this). I could never get away with cussing like a drunk sailor in this state. Maybe if I had a Scottish Brogue people would just dismiss it and think I'm cute.

BTW, one of my trainers is a blackbelt from Scotland, and he's won numerous national titles in both America and Scotland, as well as two world championships. Its giving me a chance to work on my own brogue.

[LeafofDeath]

Now you guys are starting to piss me off. Please, for the sake of my sanity, listen to what I am saying.

If I want a program for weight loss, I can go to T-nation or Ruggedmag. It will recommend HIIT, weight-training, and good nutrition practices in great detail. All these things have become common accepted dogma by now. Their programs are completely free to me, absolutely no strings attached whatsoever. It will tell me exactly which exercises to do, which foods to eat, what rep/weight scheme, everything.

This is available free of charge, so why does it make sense for me to spend $40 to get the exact same thing? It does not. When I shell out money, I expect something over and above what is already available to me for free. I did not find this in Afterburn. I did find this in S2B, Book of Muscle, Core Performance, Gourmet Nutrition.

The competing products I mentioned "blow it away" because they offer more (in terms of information that is not easily found already for free) for a smaller price, plus other tangible benefits to me like a well-bound book I can hold in my hand.

I don't need to pay $40 for someone to tell me I need to perform HIIT and weight train with compound movements, OK? Afterburn would only be useful for a complete newbie who doesn't know a darn thing about training already or someone simply insists on having an exact program spoon-fed to them. In either case, I would STILL recommend that they go to T-nation and get that free.

How can you argue this point? Same type of program, same type of results. Do I spend $0 or do I spend $40? Tough call. One would hope that the $40 product offers something beyond that which is able for $0, which was my reasoning when I decided to spend the money. Afterburn does not. Some books and e-books do.

Look guys, I have always disagreed with the common practice among both this board and the MH board to take professional programs and then do them verbatim. My goal has always been to acquire the knowledge to build my own successful programs that are tailored specifically for me. When I look to spend money, I look for something that adds to my pool of knowledge to better prepare my own programs. I bought Afterburn with the hope of learning a new methodology or some way to tweak what I already know and practice. I did not find this. This is why I am unhappy. I never had any desire, nor will ever have the desire, to follow any professionally built program that is not designed specifically for me.

Do I fault Alwyn for selling Afterburn? No. I'm sure he has many happy customers of the product. I'm sure they got exactly what they were looking for out of it. The program is sound and gives great results (evidenced by anyone who has ever completed a similar program, including myself). I think Alwyn is a great trainer. I think he knows his shit and gives his clients fantastic results. If I could afford it and had the need, I think time spent personal training with him would be worth every penny.

I am not personally attacking Alwyn Cosgrove, his knowledge, or the effectiveness of his methods. I am merely upset with myself for buying a specific product of his, one that is NOT what I was looking for, that was available to me completely for free from other sources. I did not ask for a refund, because a) he does not offer one (at least not that I saw) and b) the product is what he claimed it would be. And it is my fault for expecting anything over and above that claim.

[LeafofDeath]

Originally posted by dos:
Pretty funny how one would think that $40 is expensive for a program. I have a 12 week volleyball lifting program that is for sale on another website that sells for $19.95 per 12 week session (levels 1-2-3) or you can get all of them for $39.95.

What do you get, You get a spreadsheet with exercises and periodization, period. You would be terribly dissapointed with my program since it would come out to a whopping 9 pages with 4 weeks of training on each spread sheet page (3 pages for each level)...YIKES what a rip-off! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Since I know absolutely nothing about Volleyball-specific training, I would consider spending the money on your program if I found myself needing one. And I wouldn't consider it too expensive since I know of no free sources where I could download a similar program.

However, I would be disappointed if your program turned out to be a "typical" (term used loosely) training program that is equally applicable to anyone seeking to improve their overall conditioning.

Fortunately for you, there is not a place (that I know of) like Volleyball-nation.com that offers free volleyball programs from professional trainers like yourself

[Horse]

Originally posted by LeafofDeath:

I am merely upset with myself for buying a specific product of his, one that is NOT what I was looking for ,

the product is what he claimed it would be.

So YOU bought a product that is EXACTLY as advertised, and NOT what you are looking for ?

And you are complaining? Wow.

[Neuro Muscular]

Everything is available for free. Seriously - the information is already out there in libraries, the internet etc. You just have to look. As Sean said there isn't anything new out there.

Even if you found something new in other books - that information was still out there for free too. You just hadn't read it

You're putting down Alwyn's programs saying basically that it's nothing more than "HIIT and compound movements". I've read all of the top guys programs (yes, even at t-nation).

You could say that about every single program out there. All that scrawny to brawny is, is compound movements and eating a caloric surplus (it's a great program too). That information is out there already.

As Horse pointed out - you bought a 16 week fat loss program. You are disappointed because you recieved a 16 week fat loss program. Apparently you know all the stuff in the manual, so why you were buying a fat loss program is the real question.

And for all the free advice you've probably got from Alwyn over the years at this site and others - $40 seems like a pretty fair investment.

The problem doesn't seem to be with Alwyn's work. The problem seems to be that you know it all already. No offence but that's how you come across.

Looking forward to seeing your training manual released.

Then we'll get Alwyn to come on here and trash it.

[Trainer One]

I've only just started posting on this site but have been a "long time viewer" [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's posts like Leaf of Death's that stopped Dos and Alwyn posting here before.

Luckily we have Dos back, but Alwyn hasn't come back yet.

I can only see this thread heading in an ugly direction.

[LeafofDeath]

Yup.

I'm done with this thread. Hopefully I saved a few people some money.

http://www.t-nation.com

and

http://www.ruggedmag.com

Love 'em, people.

[Neuro Muscular]

[LeafofDeath]

God, I don't know why, but I just can't let this go.

I never claimed I knew everything. I know that Alwyn is much more knowledgeable than I am, which is why I look to him to help me fill in the gaps, which is why I spent $40 on the program to begin with.

I see no reason why a post like this would drive Alwyn away from this forum. First of all, it's a sad world we live in, if we only surround ourselves with people who agree with us 100%. Secondly, I have never gotten personal about him or the quality of his work.

The things that draw me to books like S2B are not their workout programs. It's the "other stuff." For example, in S2B I like some of the diagnostic tools to help you identify weak points and imbalances. I liked reading through the chapters and picking up a factoid here and there that was completely new to me or helped refine an old idea. For me personally, I buy the books for those reasons.

I expected Afterburn to be a similar product. I thought it was going to be a program and then several chapters discussing the logic and methods in great detail, with specific things that would be new to me. I wanted the science and the studies, the nitty gritty details that enhance my knowledge. Obviously I was incorrect in expecting this Afterburn product to be similar to products like Book of Muscle or S2B. I suspect that I am not alone in this assumption, and I want to help anyone else who shares this expectation. You will not find it in Afterburn. Afterburn gives a very brief rundown that summarizes his main points and then he dives right into the program. If it's the program you're after and the T-Nation/Rugged programs aren't sufficient for some reason, then you might want to consider Afterburn.

But if you want details and explanations, then I suggest you wait for the Alwyn/Lou book that will be released this winter. Or rea