For the martial artists: "body hardening"?

[Jake]

Hi everyone,

Some of you probably remember me--I used to post here pretty regularly.

And as some of you know, I'm a Marine. We have a really good mixed martial arts program, and one component of our sessions is usually "body hardening" drills. We basically take turns hitting each other in the forearms, abdomen, etc. on the theory that doing so will "kill the nerves" and make us less prone to pain/damage. Is there any validity to this, or are we just a bunch of dumb grunts hitting each other? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks in advance,
Jake

[Simon.]

I don't know about actual scientific research but thai boxers usually feel much less pain when they're hit in the leg for example.
Wether it's due to 'dead' nerves or some other way the body adjusts to the pain, being hit repeatedly obviously has some impact on the amount of pain you feel when you're hit.

[hypersonic]

ur body toughens up when you run a lot you will get callous on your feet.

[Jean-Paul]

Calling Alwyn! Those Thai boxers all kick hard surfaces with their shins to toughen them up, so there is something to that. My old instructor used to make us punch a board wrapped in coarse rope, or do push-ups on our knuckles on un-sanded wood, and at the time it felt like I had pretty tough hands. I'm afraid they're all soft now. I'm with Simon... Don't know if its nerves or you just increasing your tolerance for pain.

[Buk]

There is that, plus the impact stimulates the bones to grow new cells which increase the density and strength. I think there is a physological component. As your bones get stronger, the same impact hurts less, because there is less danger to the body, so less need to notify you through pain.

Not too long ago there was a post, I think in the cycling forum, that talked about bone mass decreasing in people who gave up running for cycling do to the reduced impact. Using your body, and therefore impact, is good for it!

[ichbinba]

there are people who do breaking on the martial arts tournament circuit and they all have big nasty knuckles littered with calcium deposites, so I could see bone cell growth being a partial contributer like Buk said.

[wtflestoppoules]

I heard this is not a good idea, because later on you will feel pain non-stop. Don't know if it's true though!

[diamondpete]

I have heard a lot on the the calcium building by punching hard things from martial artists. They come in to schools.
1. The school of: "Do it it makes you tough"
(a great part of this is for mental toughness, knowing you can punch a wall and kick its ass)

and

2. The school of: " Those guys are idiots" .
They still do things that are "tough on your hands like knuckle push ups but the primary reason is for strength in th wrist so your wrist doesn't turn when you punch SOMEONE. besides we all know, "Boards don't hit back."


Peter

[kuri]

Hey Jake, good to hear from you.

As for "body hardening" I think a better use of your time would be sparring. You'll get used to being hit as well as practical application of techniques, and get a great cardio workout.

I don't think theres anything to hitting your stomach, forearms etc... though the practice of hardening shins, knuckles, i.e. striking surfaces, does build calcium deposits allowing one to give full power strikes with less risk of injury.

My Karate teacher in Japan advised me not to practice on boards or other hard surfaces because it would cause joint damage and eventual arthritis (I'm a musician). He did toughen his knuckles to some degree though, reasoning that for him it was worth it.

Good luck,

[Keith S.]

My father had bruises all over his shins from growing up in Thailand and kicking bamboo trees. I'm assuming this was to "toughen the bones".


Another thing that is commonly done is taking a huge pot of rice and driving ur fingertips into it, after the rice is less effective you move on to gravel, then small rocks, and then larger rocks. (From what I've heard.)

[mmMatt]

At at younger age I was heavily envolved in Sikiran. I spent 20 minutes a day kicking a rope-clad post. At the end of the day I finished it off with forearm strikes and punching on said post.

Did this for nearly 3 years and all I can say is hell yes it took away a lot of the pain when I got struck in a match.

Would I do it again? Hell no. My shins look like someone took an axe to them. You can actually feel the indents in the bone if you press hard enough.

My knuckles look like I spend my free time punching glass.

Keep in mind I'm only 19 and I was doing this from the age of 13-16 roughly. At that age my bones weren't even close to being fully developed. I'm paying the price for it now though [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[rookie]

Jake - Let me preface this by saying I have no scientific expertise or studies to validate what I am saying. However, I spent several years as a cop in an area frequented by Marine's and other military personnel. This unfortunatley resulting in my fighting or "controlling" alot of Marines in barfights and what not.I can tell you 9 times out of 10 the strikes I would use on a Marine, a vet not a rookie, would be much less effective than a common street thug. On the other hand we had a common joke in my district about fighting a Marine. We frequented a control method referred to as PPCT, Pressure Point Control Tactics. The joke with a Marine in a bar fight was never punch them, they could not feel it, but simply touch a nerve and they went down. The brachial plexus is a nerve that runs along the neck (I think I have the name right, it has been a while), when striking this nerve it cause loss of use to the legs almost instantly and for several seconds. I remember a drunk marine at the Palimino one night who stripped his shirt and yelled at me to "come and get him". So.... I did. And after a quick one handed forearm strike to his neck he was incapacitated and handcuffed within seconds. I guess after hearing this I have to wonder if that method makes you less prone to pain but more prone to certain type of nerve reactions.

[RedLefty]

I don't know, Rookie... I don't "harden" my bones, but I'm still pretty sure a forearm to the neck would put me down too.

Am I the only one that keeps picturing the training scenes from Bloodsport while reading this thread?

[eastcoastsurfer]

There was a show on discovery once about the guys who punch through bricks and boards and the like. What they showed is that after repeated stress, their knuckles, shins, etc... added extra calcium deposits on top of what's there over and over. This made their fists much stronger than a normal persons.

I can't seem to remember exactly why the calcium was added. I want to say that by punching a brick for example you cause small fractures in your knuckles which then get filled in. Over time this adds up and makes pretty solid fists.

The other component of course is pain, and a huge component of pain is mental. It's just like the first time you get under a new high weight. At first it's a shock, but the next time you know what to expect and you're not shocked in the same manner. Eventually, you become conditioned to the feeling and it doesn't phase you.

So in the end you become conditioned to the pain and your bones become denser so as not to break when you strike something.

[Irishdazza]

Back when I was training in Karate, we used the makiwara (rope covered post) a lot and also the forearms blocks against another blocker rather than a strike. It definitely toughens you up. After a couple of weeks the forearms didn't even bruise anymore.

My sensei had knuckles the size of large coins and had arthritis so bad that he had trouble closing a fist. ( as an aside he used to do a "party trick" at the xmas dinner where he broke 15 roofing tiles with his forehead - kinda ruined dessert...)

So make of that what you will...

[kuri]

Like I said, there are consequences to doing that sort of training.

I'd rather be able to use my hands and feet when I'm 50.

[LeafofDeath]

From my experiences earlier in life, I definitely agree that it works, and it doesn't even take all that long before you notice a difference.

I know that when you break a bone, the exact location of the fracture repairs itself to be stronger than it was before. So perhaps like someone else said, tiny microfractures heal and reheal hundreds of times over to become extremely strong.

I would be curious to see what kind of long-term effects this kind of training might have though.

[Simon.]

Originally posted by rookie:
Jake - Let me preface this by saying I have no scientific expertise or studies to validate what I am saying. However, I spent several years as a cop in an area frequented by Marine's and other military personnel. This unfortunatley resulting in my fighting or "controlling" alot of Marines in barfights and what not.I can tell you 9 times out of 10 the strikes I would use on a Marine, a vet not a rookie, would be much less effective than a common street thug. On the other hand we had a common joke in my district about fighting a Marine. We frequented a control method referred to as PPCT, Pressure Point Control Tactics. The joke with a Marine in a bar fight was never punch them, they could not feel it, but simply touch a nerve and they went down. The brachial plexus is a nerve that runs along the neck (I think I have the name right, it has been a while), when striking this nerve it cause loss of use to the legs almost instantly and for several seconds. I remember a drunk marine at the Palimino one night who stripped his shirt and yelled at me to "come and get him". So.... I did. And after a quick one handed forearm strike to his neck he was incapacitated and handcuffed within seconds. I guess after hearing this I have to wonder if that method makes you less prone to pain but more prone to certain type of nerve reactions.

That sounds pretty cool
Could you explain exactly where that nerve is located? Sounds like a pretty effective and quick way to neutralize someone.

Irishdazza - Do you have any idea WHY people eventually get arthitis? Is it because of the microfractions or because of the accumulated and repetitive stress applied to the joints?
I always had 'girly' knuckles and thought if I started punching a wall for like 20 mins a day eventaully they'd get a little bigger but now I'm worried and not sure if it's worth it