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Is there any reason why continued hamstring stretching, done on a daily basis, should have no effect after a few months? My reach test is exactly the same and my hams are just as tight as they have always been.
Is it likely they there is something else going on re: lower back/pelvis or something?
Someone recommended I have myofascial release therapy but I'm unsure as to why that would help.
Having been through a number of hamstring issues, here's my two cents:
Isometric stretching has its place and should be done with regularity; however, it's only a tool, not the be-all end-all. Self-myofascial release (SMR) is purported to break up the microtrauma (microscarring) that occurs in the muscle as the healing result of tissue breakdown brought on by weight training. The visual is this: your muscles form miniature knots when they attempt to heal after breakdown. If all you do it stretch, in a way, you're just tightening those knots; however, if you break apart those knots so the muscle can re-attach in-line (through SMR), then flexibility through stretching should, in theory, continue to improve.
Of course, you have your own physiological limitations, but chances are you haven't reached them yet. Keep in mind that your body's musculature runs from head to toe, so yes, there's the possibility that tightness in your lower back, glutes, even tibialis anteriors (fronts of lower legs) could contribute to hamstring tightness (for me, I can always tell when I need to do more work on a glute because my lower back on that side will be a tad tight after SMR work).
So, to answer your one question simply, yes, it's possible. What's your pelvic tilt look like? When are you noticing the tightness most? If you're not already foam rolling, start and give it a month or two and see what happens.
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So, to answer your one question simply, yes, it's possible. What's your pelvic tilt look like? When are you noticing the tightness most? If you're not already foam rolling, start and give it a month or two and see what happens.
Hi - thanks for the response.
I've recently started foam rolling so will continue with that.
I notice the tightness most when seated or bending forward. For instance, I recently sat in a kayak - within minutes my back was aching and I had to keep lying back. If I sit with my back against a wall it's painful in both my hams and lower back to have my legs straight out. I suspect a combination of ham tightness and lack of core stability.
When I do stretch, the stretch is always felt behind the knees rather than in the belly of the muscle as described in the stretching manuals - dunno if that is relevant.
I'm not sure about my pelvic tilt. I think I tend to exaggerate my lordosis a bit due to having a history of back problems - the emphasis of postural adjustment was often fixated on avoiding lumbar flexion.
The main reason I'd like to get it sorted out is because I think it's behind my back's tendency to round at the bottom of a squatting movement.
The back rounding does sound like an overall mobility/flexibility issue. There have been several threads here about this situation, so a quick search should bring up some more detailed stuff, but do continue SMR, especially hams, glutes, and back. In stretching, add in extra time for hip flexors (basically, consider the body in a seated position, look at what's foreshortened, then target your stretching toward those areas). Not sure what your weight training looks like, but you noted core instability (also addressed in other threads).
One thing that may seem unrelated, but what do your shoulders look like when you're standing in a relaxed position? I'm willing to bet there's some hunching and/or internal rotation. If so, look up "Neanderthal No More" (on the web and on here).
__________________ No Magic Pill (the log)
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Are your hamstrings tight because they are too short or because you may have anterior pelvic tilting which is pulling them too long?
In my experience most hamstring tightness stems from too much hip flexion. Try PNF and static stretching your calves, quads, and hips before you kayak and see if that helps. Stretch the Beejeesus out of them.
If you have overly tight hip flexors and continue to stretch the hams, your hams are going to get weaker, which is going to make the problem worse.
If you want to stretch your hams, use good mornings and romanian deadlifts so that you strengthen them throughout the range of flexibility.
Neil, could also be tied into pelvic/core instability ... doing any number of traditional lumbar stabilization exercises in supine should help (like dead bugs) and work up to leg lowering (sort of a reverse straight leg raise where you start with both legs extended up toward the ceiling, then keeping your knees locked straight and toes flexed up, slowly lower one leg as low as you can go without losing position, return to start and do the other leg.) Have you tried the toe touch progression?
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I am sorry: Julie is not at the keybord right now, but I am.
Dead bugs and key points:
- check out Mike Robertson's old T-Nation article about them. then ask him if he'll write an updated one. T-Nation.com | Core Training for Smart Folks
- keep your back neutral while lying on the floor.
- progress them! I just use them to progress people to leg lowerings I use something like this:
no movement of the limbs -> leg movement -> leg and arm movement
(I skip moving the arms only. is that a problem?)
and speaking of movement:
legs sliding on the floor -> legs moving at the hip with knees bent -> legs fully extending without touching the floor -> straight leg, hip flexion
- reps or time? I used to do them for 8-10 reps per leg, then I took a turn and started dong them for 30-45 seconds. I figured - if they are a supine version of an ISO plank, than why do them for reps and not use time?
OH! And about SMR on the hams - I use tennis balls for the hams. I also do them on the floor OR on a bench, shich allows me to relax my hams more.
Any stretches for the other hip-muscles?
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Are your hamstrings tight because they are too short or because you may have anterior pelvic tilting which is pulling them too long?
In my experience most hamstring tightness stems from too much hip flexion. Try PNF and static stretching your calves, quads, and hips before you kayak and see if that helps. Stretch the Beejeesus out of them.
If you have overly tight hip flexors and continue to stretch the hams, your hams are going to get weaker, which is going to make the problem worse.
If you want to stretch your hams, use good mornings and romanian deadlifts so that you strengthen them throughout the range of flexibility.
Hi - thanks for the reply
What do you mean by too much hip flexion? Too big a range of movement or the hip flexing when something else should be or not enough extension
I stretch my hip flexors regularly using warrior lunge - is that the right sort of thing?
I can't do good mornings or SLDLs or romanians as I have pre-existing back problems that these exercises irritate - the next day I tend to get referred nerve pain down as low as the foot. I can do sensible standard deadlifts as long as the starting height isn't too low.
At the moment all I'm doing is one legged deadlifts on the basis that they use a low weight and supposedly train core stability. I used to do glute ham raises which never gave me any problems but I'm nowhere near strong enough to pull those off anymore!
Neil, could also be tied into pelvic/core instability ... doing any number of traditional lumbar stabilization exercises in supine should help (like dead bugs) and work up to leg lowering (sort of a reverse straight leg raise where you start with both legs extended up toward the ceiling, then keeping your knees locked straight and toes flexed up, slowly lower one leg as low as you can go without losing position, return to start and do the other leg.) Have you tried the toe touch progression?
Hi Julie
No I've not tried the toe touch progression. Is it in The Athletic Body in Balance? I have that book at home but have not had chance to read it yet.
With the leg lowering - my starting position is a fair bit off vertical which is quite stressful on the core. Is it OK to start off with one leg supported ?
I'll check out the deadbugs. At the moment my core workout is planks, side-planks, bird-dogs and whatever core work I get from kettlebell swings, getups, pushups and, at the moment, one legged deadlifts.
Neil, absolutely start with one leg supported with the leg lowering ... pages 54-56 in ABIB. The toe touch progression is on pages 42-43.
Ts did a great job describing dead bug progressions. Start supine with your legs bent and feet on the floor. Neutral pelvis. Arms. Legs. Arms and legs (opposites). Then do unsupported (hips and knees bent at 90 degrees with feet off the floor). The trunk/pelvis should remain immobile throughout the movements.
Eventually you want core activation to be reflexive. Working the chop and lift in tall kneeling and half kneeling and then standing can work really well for this.
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
TY, I've tried doing the dead bugs but I'm not sure what I should be feeling, so I gave up on them.
I will check out ER's article again. Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts.vassilev
I am sorry: Julie is not at the keybord right now, but I am.
Dead bugs and key points:
- check out Mike Robertson's old T-Nation article about them. then ask him if he'll write an updated one. T-Nation.com | Core Training for Smart Folks
- keep your back neutral while lying on the floor.
- progress them! I just use them to progress people to leg lowerings I use something like this:
no movement of the limbs -> leg movement -> leg and arm movement
(I skip moving the arms only. is that a problem?)
and speaking of movement:
legs sliding on the floor -> legs moving at the hip with knees bent -> legs fully extending without touching the floor -> straight leg, hip flexion
- reps or time? I used to do them for 8-10 reps per leg, then I took a turn and started dong them for 30-45 seconds. I figured - if they are a supine version of an ISO plank, than why do them for reps and not use time?
OH! And about SMR on the hams - I use tennis balls for the hams. I also do them on the floor OR on a bench, shich allows me to relax my hams more.
Yes, I mean lunge stretching. It's the only thing that helps mine out at least. Also, figure 4 stretches for the piriformis.
Do you have access to a reverse hyper?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilC
Hi - thanks for the reply
What do you mean by too much hip flexion? Too big a range of movement or the hip flexing when something else should be or not enough extension
I stretch my hip flexors regularly using warrior lunge - is that the right sort of thing?
I can't do good mornings or SLDLs or romanians as I have pre-existing back problems that these exercises irritate - the next day I tend to get referred nerve pain down as low as the foot. I can do sensible standard deadlifts as long as the starting height isn't too low.
At the moment all I'm doing is one legged deadlifts on the basis that they use a low weight and supposedly train core stability. I used to do glute ham raises which never gave me any problems but I'm nowhere near strong enough to pull those off anymore!
Julie, I have a question for you. I have experienced some testicular pain when my right rear hip is acting up. I have heard this from other lifters as well. Any suggestions on what it might be? It does it very rarely, but when it does it is a point of concern.
Neil, absolutely start with one leg supported with the leg lowering ... pages 54-56 in ABIB. The toe touch progression is on pages 42-43.
Ts did a great job describing dead bug progressions. Start supine with your legs bent and feet on the floor. Neutral pelvis. Arms. Legs. Arms and legs (opposites). Then do unsupported (hips and knees bent at 90 degrees with feet off the floor). The trunk/pelvis should remain immobile throughout the movements.
Eventually you want core activation to be reflexive. Working the chop and lift in tall kneeling and half kneeling and then standing can work really well for this.
Cool - will be handy to have decent book description to go off.
Do you have any tips for knowing when the trunk/pelvis is remaining immobile when doing these progressions alone?
Out of interest, do you rate Mike Robertson's Functional Training for Sports book? I looked at it in the bookshop and it looked kind of handy in that it had nice planned progressions for this sort of thing, including the deadbug progressions, but it seemed to emphasise drawing in the abdomen which I know is no longer in vogue post McGill et al. This made me wonder about it.
I still teach drawing in the abdomen with this type of exercise ... not so much with other things, but as a beginning exercise, yes. The ultimate goal is to have reflex stabilization, but you need to start with getting the right muscles to fire. As you progress, ideally you have to consciously activate less and reflex kicks in. And there are other exercises to promote this.
__________________
Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
Julie, I have a question for you. I have experienced some testicular pain when my right rear hip is acting up. I have heard this from other lifters as well. Any suggestions on what it might be? It does it very rarely, but when it does it is a point of concern.
Look up pudendal neuralgia
could also be psoas spasm irritating the genitofemoral nerve
Is there any reason why continued hamstring stretching, done on a daily basis, should have no effect after a few months? My reach test is exactly the same and my hams are just as tight as they have always been.
Is it likely they there is something else going on re: lower back/pelvis or something?
Someone recommended I have myofascial release therapy but I'm unsure as to why that would help.
Stretch in the same manner as you test otherwise you may not get a specific result.
You may have shortened hamstrings which requires a different method of stretching
Julie, I have a question for you. I have experienced some testicular pain when my right rear hip is acting up. I have heard this from other lifters as well. Any suggestions on what it might be? It does it very rarely, but when it does it is a point of concern.
Sorry I didnt' see this until Sam replied ... testicular pain can be from a number of things ... hernia, referred pain, etc.
Have you been checked out medically for it? (ie turn your head and cough)
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
Thank you both for the replies. No, I have not had it checked out yet. It seems to pop up very very infrequently and only after sitting for a long time or a heavy leg session. Also, I only feel it when my psoas on that side is acting up. The suggestion regarding the psoas irritating the nerve sounds like it may be a possibility.
I wish my ART guy was in Austin :-(. He's the only guy who has ever been able to fix me quickly.
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