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I was curious what people's take on this was? I am relatively speaking recovered from a impingement/bicep tendonitis issue that was with me for years. BTW - Accupuncture was what brought my rehab over the top and I highly recommend it. It's significantly better then ART in my opinion... I am finally able to perform basic push/pull exercises without any significant problems. I can perform pushups and DB presses now - which I am thrilled about. The general rule of thumb seems to be to permanently avoid overhead presses. What about pullups though? I read somewhere that wide grip pullups are to be avoided, but I was wondering about using a shoulder width grip? Any opinions?
Thanks.
That's odd because pretty every time they test accupunture in controlled tests it doesn't appear to help cure anything physical at all.
I'm no expert but pullups can be bad for shoulders depending on how you do them. Letting your shoulders rise up into a shrug whilst under load can hurt. People commonly do this at the bottom of the movement.
They can cause elbow problems too. I've had and have spoken to lots of people who have got elbow tendonitis symptoms when they train for high reps.,
I would think that pullups/chinups are not a good idea when a person has poor scapular functioning....it might exacerbate your symptoms. It's great if you found accupuncture to be effective for your condition, but have you found out why you've been getting an impingement/tedonitis?
I have had both some impingement problems and poor scap function, and my therapist, trainer, and Bill Hartman have all recommended pullups for me.
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Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. I would really like to try pullups again - I think I will experiment with them and see how the shoulder responds. Another question: are chinups or pullups easier on the shoulder? I am just trying to be cautious since it literally took me years to get my shoulder back to where it is now. I might be being too cautious....Neil - I was very skeptical about trying the accupuncture. I have seen 2 orthos, 2 PT's, had cortisone shots, several ART sessions, and nothing really worked. The ART was helpful, but it seemed to be for very short term results. For whatever reason the accupuncture made a enormous difference in how my shoulder feels, but It did take several sessions though. I mention this about the accupuncture because I was very frustrated with my shoulder, and maybe there is someone else in the same situation that might want to try it.
I think your shoulder would be in a more favorable position in chinups compared to wide pullups - just do the two positions with your arms and compare what your shoulders are doing to even hold the start or end position and see what you think (just my opinion though)
I have had both some impingement problems and poor scap function, and my therapist, trainer, and Bill Hartman have all recommended pullups for me.
Did Bill emphasize scapular positioning during the pullup exercise? I remember something about keeping the scap retracted and depressed at the top of a chinup, which will help bench pressing as well.
I used to get an impingement pain in both my shoulders towards the end of doing wide grip pulldowns. I assumed it was due to muscular fatigue affecting my ability to hold my scapula in position....any other possible culprits? It has gotten better after I added scapula retraction/depression exercises and additional shoulder warm-ups prior to my workout.
Shhh, you might get banned for making 'obnoxious and insulting posts' *ninja*
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Watch it you two trolls!!
If Aaron were more polite and shared more of his extensive knowledge, his posts wouldn't be moderated so much. Just telling someone that he/she is wrong and a dickhead is largely unproductive. And you both know it whether you will admit it or not.
Rich, of course scapular positioning plays a role ... how could it not? But if you have a type III acromion, then likely they will hurt no matter what. It still does not mean that it is an inherently "bad" exercise for the shoulders.
Kinney, you can do neutral grip ... loop a towel over the bar and grasp the towel. They will be harder that way, but you will also train grip, which correlates to shoulder health. Otherwise, try pronated or supinated and go with which one feels better. Or do mixed grip and switch every set.
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I used to get an impingement pain in both my shoulders towards the end of doing wide grip pulldowns. I assumed it was due to muscular fatigue affecting my ability to hold my scapula in position....any other possible culprits? It has gotten better after I added scapula retraction/depression exercises and additional shoulder warm-ups prior to my workout.
FWIW, my shoulder issues have cleared up 100% (well, 95%, there's residual tendinitis) since I incorporated a ton of scapular activation and strengthening work.
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I wouldn't say it's a bad exercise for the shoulders, but it just seems like if a person's scapulas are not functioning properly....they're more likely to be in pain (or is this incorrect?). I would think that a person with a type III acromion should put more emphasis on achieving proper scapular functioning prior to doing overhead lifts or pulls....or should I think differently about that?
FWIW, my shoulder issues have cleared up 100% (well, 95%, there's residual tendinitis) since I incorporated a ton of scapular activation and strengthening work.
Do you strengthen both external and internal rotators? I wouldn't think a person would need to strengthen their internal rotators if he/she has rounded shoulders, but I read some article on t-nation stating that the subscapularis might not function properly due to a prolonged rounded shoulder posture.
If someone knows that they have type III, I wouldn't do ANY overhead pressing with them, and I'd be hesitant to do bench press.
The thing is Rich, that chins correct a lot of what is wrong with many people's scapulae. Try doing them without retracting and depressing the scapula. Seriously, try it. Could you do it?
It's sort of like keeping your abs relaxed completely when you do a push up. You can't do it. It's called reflex stabilization. And it's a good thing.
For those who have adequate upper body strength to do a bodyweight chin, they are unlikely to have scapular stabilizers that are so weak that they are impingeing when doing chins.
Just like doing pushups will improve core strength, doing chins will improve scapular stabilizer strength.
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If someone knows that they have type III, I wouldn't do ANY overhead pressing with them, and I'd be hesitant to do bench press.
The thing is Rich, that chins correct a lot of what is wrong with many people's scapulae. Try doing them without retracting and depressing the scapula. Seriously, try it. Could you do it?
It's sort of like keeping your abs relaxed completely when you do a push up. You can't do it. It's called reflex stabilization. And it's a good thing.
For those who have adequate upper body strength to do a bodyweight chin, they are unlikely to have scapular stabilizers that are so weak that they are impingeing when doing chins.
Just like doing pushups will improve core strength, doing chins will improve scapular stabilizer strength.
I didn't learn about reflex stabilization.....interesting. About pushups, I'm sure you see people in the gym at times doing really crappy pushups (i.e. huge arch in the back)....there's still some degree of ab contraction that's going on?
Do you strengthen both external and internal rotators? I wouldn't think a person would need to strengthen their internal rotators if he/she has rounded shoulders, but I read some article on t-nation stating that the subscapularis might not function properly due to a prolonged rounded shoulder posture.
Tight internal rotators were one of my problems in the first place.
External rotator work just makes the shoulder pain worse. I rarely do any of it because of that.
The only thing that's actually helped my shoulders was doing a combo of shoulder mobility exercises and strengthening the scapula with a ton of different mid-back-emphasizing exercises.
That, and ART.
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Tight internal rotators were one of my problems in the first place.
External rotator work just makes the shoulder pain worse. I rarely do any of it because of that.
The only thing that's actually helped my shoulders was doing a combo of shoulder mobility exercises and strengthening the scapula with a ton of different mid-back-emphasizing exercises.
That, and ART.
I'm actually planning to take the lower extremity ART course if my clinical site allows me to do it. I've heard people say positive things about ART for shoulder issues and nerve entrapment (i.e. carpal tunnel). I wonder how effective it is for the lower extremities vs just using a foam roller or lacrosse ball.
Can't speak to it myself, but I know many a heavy lifter that's loved ART for the lowerbody. I don't have any severe lower body issues that would really require it, though. Nothing the foam roll/tennis ball + basic hip/ankle mobility stuff won't fix anyway.
I was made a believer in ART after having it done on my gimped right shoulder. I was skeptical at first (hell when am I not?) but after actually going through the excruciating treatment and feeling it improve almost instantly, I'm sold.
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Did you receive any shoulder joint mobilizations in conjunction with the ART treatments? I would think that joint and muscle issues go together for the most part. My orthopaedic curriculum mainly focuses on joint mobilizations, but I think that joint mobs only address part of the problem when it comes to manual therapy. I wonder how Julie approaches manual therapy.
Julie - Thanks for the info! I never would of thought of trying the towel idea. Maybe I will start with them and gradually incorporate chinups - as long as the shoulder holds up.
Did Bill emphasize scapular positioning during the pullup exercise? I remember something about keeping the scap retracted and depressed at the top of a chinup, which will help bench pressing as well.
My observations show that Bill emphasizes scapular position a lot. ISO chin ups with emphasis on scapular position rock. Dips plus rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerManDL
External rotator work just makes the shoulder pain worse. I rarely do any of it because of that.
I have a client who had suffered a gleno-humeral dislocation, and he claims that external rotator work works just fine with him, although I'm not really sure because we do a lot of scap work as well. All other clients favour scap work in terms of pain reduction, and say that external rotations(most variations) cause more pain. On another topic we had a conversation how pain durig and after the exercise may differ, though...
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Did you receive any shoulder joint mobilizations in conjunction with the ART treatments? I would think that joint and muscle issues go together for the most part. My orthopaedic curriculum mainly focuses on joint mobilizations, but I think that joint mobs only address part of the problem when it comes to manual therapy. I wonder how Julie approaches manual therapy.
I am a big proponent of manual therapy. I am one course shy of Maitland certification ... great stuff. I also do Mulligan stuff and McConnell stuff ... muscle energy, MFR, etc.
The thing is you have to figure out WHY the joint is stiff. Look at the whole kinetic chain to see where there might be other dysfunction. I find that most shoulder problems are stabilization-related. The RTC gets overworked trying to do stabilization work. Get the stabilizers functioning properly and the RTC issues work themselves out.
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I am a big proponent of manual therapy. I am one course shy of Maitland certification ... great stuff. I also do Mulligan stuff and McConnell stuff ... muscle energy, MFR, etc.
The thing is you have to figure out WHY the joint is stiff. Look at the whole kinetic chain to see where there might be other dysfunction. I find that most shoulder problems are stabilization-related. The RTC gets overworked trying to do stabilization work. Get the stabilizers functioning properly and the RTC issues work themselves out.
Do you mean that the RTC compensates for any abnormalities in scapular movement (i.e. over active upper trap with a weak lower trap, ant tilted scap)? I would figure that the GH capsule would shorten with someone that has a prolonged rounded shoulder posture and some joint mobs would be used to restore mobility to allow for normal excursion of the humerus. When you mention stabilizers....are you talking about the force couples for upward and downward scap rotation?
Do you mean that the RTC compensates for any abnormalities in scapular movement (i.e. over active upper trap with a weak lower trap, ant tilted scap)? I would figure that the GH capsule would shorten with someone that has a prolonged rounded shoulder posture and some joint mobs would be used to restore mobility to allow for normal excursion of the humerus. When you mention stabilizers....are you talking about the force couples for upward and downward scap rotation?
I mean that the RTC will attempt to act as a stabilizer if the stabilizers aren't doing their job.
You are making things way too complicated ... and it is tough to make generalizations as every person's dysfunction is unique. But I will stand by my statement that chinups/pullups are not inherently bad for the shoulder.
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Are pullups bad for your shoulders?
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