DB Snatches causing shoulder pain?

[milkman21]

I've recently started doing DB snatches. I've gotten pretty decent at them in a short time, and I feel that my form is good... but in the last few days my right (dominant) shoulder has gotten a bit sore and feels a bit strained. It prevented me from swimming yesterday, because there was some dull pain at the top of the catch phase of the stroke.

I don't want to just assume the DB snatches are to blame, because before today there was no pain while doing these. In fact, the pain started yesterday (Friday) morning when I woke up, and the last time I did snatches was Tuesday morning. I'm just worried because this is the only truly new exercise I've added to my routine lately.

At any rate, here are the recent changes in my activity:

* Started swimming again about 6-7 weeks ago. 2-3x/week, 2-3 miles per workout.
* Started DB snatches 4 weeks ago, I'm up to 3 x 5 x 85 lbs (each arm).
* Started doing weighted push-ups instead of BB bench about 1/2 the time. I started this 2-3 weeks ago.

Not sure what the likely culprit is, and perhaps I'm just doing too much altogether. I do keep on top of my external rotations and cuban-style rotations (humerus parallel to the ground), and I've never had much shoulder trouble in the past--even with years of competitive swimming--so I'm hoping someone here can help me diagnose what's been bothering me the last two days.

I'm icing it as we speak, and I plan on doing some rehab type exercises tomorrow.

[Ian Kay]

This isn't necessarily the answer to your problem, but you may find it interesting:

Poliquin on the Db Clean:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1470868

"This is the most useless exercise prescribed on the planet. In fact, anyone prescribing it should be charged with a felony. Basically, it's one of the best ways to get someone injured. Many ART practitioners have treated strength coaches who were foolish enough to self-prescribe it, along with athletes who were unlucky enough to have it prescribed to them.

There are multiple reasons why dumbbell power cleans are bad:

• The diameter of the dumbbell plate puts the implement ahead of the center of gravity, which increases the loading on the disks far greater than a barbell would.

• The muscles of the shoulder most likely to be strained by dumbbell power cleans are the teres minor and the infraspinatus. The strains are caused by the body trying to stabilize the dumbbells once they fall toward the shoulders at the last part of the catch.

• The catch part leads to rapid overstretching of the forearm muscles, leading to bastardized forms of golfer's elbow and tennis elbow.
Basically, dumbbell power cleans are like having a hammer in your toolbox with a flexible rubber handle! It's not a good tool.

The dumbbell power snatch is the same thing. Why expose the shoulder to something that could cause a lot of trauma when there are other exercises that are more effective and far safer? I know people in the industry who promote the one arm power snatch and in the same sentence tell me they're getting their shoulder operated on for the fifth time. Dude, maybe that's not very smart!

Another coach I know recommends leg extensions before squatting... and he's had 26 knee surgeries. Didn't he learn anything?
So, the worst exercises are the dumbbell power clean and the one arm dumbbell snatch. I don't know any successful top strength coaches who use those. A lot of these exercises are just gimmicks that don't contribute much except injuries... "

[WarrenI]

The topic was discussed in a thread at Mike Boyle's forum.

http://www.michaelboyle.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1102

[UConnJulie]

Originally Posted by milkman21

I've recently started doing DB snatches. I've gotten pretty decent at them in a short time, and I feel that my form is good... but in the last few days my right (dominant) shoulder has gotten a bit sore and feels a bit strained. It prevented me from swimming yesterday, because there was some dull pain at the top of the catch phase of the stroke.

I don't want to just assume the DB snatches are to blame, because before today there was no pain while doing these. In fact, the pain started yesterday (Friday) morning when I woke up, and the last time I did snatches was Tuesday morning. I'm just worried because this is the only truly new exercise I've added to my routine lately.

At any rate, here are the recent changes in my activity:

* Started swimming again about 6-7 weeks ago. 2-3x/week, 2-3 miles per workout.
* Started DB snatches 4 weeks ago, I'm up to 3 x 5 x 85 lbs (each arm).
* Started doing weighted push-ups instead of BB bench about 1/2 the time. I started this 2-3 weeks ago.

Not sure what the likely culprit is, and perhaps I'm just doing too much altogether. I do keep on top of my external rotations and cuban-style rotations (humerus parallel to the ground), and I've never had much shoulder trouble in the past--even with years of competitive swimming--so I'm hoping someone here can help me diagnose what's been bothering me the last two days.

I'm icing it as we speak, and I plan on doing some rehab type exercises tomorrow.

What did you do on Wednesday and Thursday?

What position do you typically sleep in?

When you say "swimming" are you talking primarily freestyle or something else?

How's your scapular stability?

Do you have a training log or could you list your typical workouts? (I want to see if they are balanced ... the swimming might be creating an additional imbalance ... )

IMO, I doubt that the DB snatches are the issue, but let's see if we can get to the bottom of this ...

[milkman21]

Originally Posted by UConnJulie

What did you do on Wednesday and Thursday?

What position do you typically sleep in?

When you say "swimming" are you talking primarily freestyle or something else?

How's your scapular stability?

Do you have a training log or could you list your typical workouts? (I want to see if they are balanced ... the swimming might be creating an additional imbalance ... )

IMO, I doubt that the DB snatches are the issue, but let's see if we can get to the bottom of this ...

Thanks for getting back to me Julie. I'll answer the questions you asked:


***
Wednesday was a swimming day, 4500 yards total with some tough freestyle sets and some IM work. It was definitely one of the harder workouts I've done since getting back in the pool < 2 months ago.


***
Thursday was weights--full body work. The workout was (in supersets):

*Deadlifts - warmup + 5 x 5 x 315 lbs
*Military Press, slight leg thrust towards end of set - warmup + 3 x 10 x 105 lbs (not very difficult)

*Pull-Ups - 3 x 10 x BW+15 lbs
*Hang Clean - 10x145 lbs, 5x165 lbs, 8x155 lbs, 10x135 lbs

*Chest-supported row - 3 x 10 x 180 lbs
*Traveling Lunges - 3 x 10 x (2x55 lb DB's)

One set of tricep work (don't remember what)
2 sets face pulls + some light lateral raises

That kind of workout is pretty typical for me 1-2x week (depending on whether I get 3-4 workouts in).


***
The other weight workout, which I did Tuesday, was:

*Full Oly Squats - warmup + 5x5x215 lbs

*Cable Row - 4 x 10 x 180 lbs
*Push-Ups - 12 x +45, 8 x +80, 7 x +80, 6 x +80

*DB Snatch - warmup + 6 x 80 lbs, 3x5x85 lbs, 6x65 lbs
*External rotations and cuban-style rotations - 5 x 10 x 12.5-17.5 lbs

*Back Extensions - 3 x 10 x BW+115 lbs
*Chins - 2 x 10 x BW+15 lbs


***
I alternate doing essentially those two workouts, varying reps and sets but keeping similar volume.


***
I really don't know how my scapular stability is, but I've always had slightly less ROM in my right shoulder. I can grab my hands behind my back when the right hand goes over the top, but in the case where my right hand is on bottom I can only get about 1 inch from touching. That's been the case for as long as I can remember, possibly since that's my dominant arm(?)


***
I do tend to sleep on my side, and I might very well have slept on my right side on Thursday night. I know that I do roll around in my sleep though, and I usually end up on my stomach or back. I did make a conscious effort to fall asleep on my back last night, though.



If there's anything else I can answer to help you diagnose, just me know. Thanks again.

[UConnJulie]

My initial thoughts which may or may not be accurate ...

If you primarily swim freestyle ... that is a pulling activity ... 4500 is pretty decent volume IMO ...

In your first workout you have essentially 4 pulling movements (Deadlifts, Pull Ups, Rows, and Cleans) and only 1 pushing.

In your second workout you have more balance, but still 2 pulling (rows and chins) with only one pushing (push ups) with snatches maybe being a bit of both.

I would guess that you probably have some instability around your scapulae from muscle imbalance (weaker serratus). I think you should add in some additional pressing in the form of pushups and pushups with a plus and maybe cut out some of the rows.

When you sleep avoid sleeping with that arm up over your head or under your head (depending upon the position). This puts the rotator cuff tendons in a position where blood flow is restricted and can also cause impingement.

It IS very common for the dominant shoulder to have restricted internal rotation compared to the non-dominant side; however, it is not "normal". Do the towel stretch to improve the mobility there ... let me know if you need a description or picture.

If it is sore, and you are scheduled to swim, you might want to avoid freestyle, butterfly, and/or back stroke that day and stick to breast stroke or have just a kicking workout. Ice it after workouts and be sure to warm up properly and stretch your shoulders completely afterward (including chest, biceps, and triceps).

Hope that helps ...

[milkman21]

Thanks Julie.

I was always under the impression that swimming was a major internal rotator and caused a lot of pronation, and hence swimmers have that horrible posture. That's why I've been trying to do my weight workouts with more pulling exercises to compensate for all the pronation caused by the swimming. Am I off base here? I wonder if my years of imbalance in the one direction have finally been overcome... but now with an imbalance in the opposite...

As for sleeping, I'll make sure to stay out of those positions more often, as I often end up on my stomach with my arms overhead. I never really thought about this being a problem, but I see your point.

Add more pushing--got it. I'll add some more overhead pressing and some more push-ups, and maybe I'll go back to doing a few sets of 20-30 pushups each day if you think that would be advisable.

I know the towel stretch quite well, and I'll make sure to actually start doing it again.


For what it's worth, my shoulder did feel significantly better today in the pool than it did Friday, but I did cut back on the freestyle and upped the kicking just in case. It's still a little off, so I'll keep a close eye on it while the irregularity continues.

Thanks again.

[dfpt]

Milkman,
In addition to UConnJulie's suggestions, here's an interesting read on possible contributions to your shoulder problems. http://www.posturalrestoration.com/p...nysyndrome.pdf

[milkman21]

Thanks again for your help guys, and girl The shoulder feels significantly better already, and it's only been 5 days since the "injury" occurred.