The fields are pretty similar in regard to their scope of practice, but I know an osteopath that does interventions such as back injections to resolve a herniated disc. There are some chiro's now that are following the PT mindset towards treatment instead of just adjusting the spine. I think PT's and Chiro's will blend together in the future depending on how many chiro's stray away from their traditional clinical thinking....not sure about osteos.
Not a fan of chiropractic. Sure, those "adjustments" make you feel better, but do you ever wonder why people (have to) keep going back to feel better? Because they treat a symptom (joint and spinal pain) without addressing the illness (muscle and postural imbalances).
PT = physiotherapist or physical therapist? (Maybe they're the same?). My PT was decent, good on the clinical rehab but not so much on the functional/performance end. I'm sure that varies by person, but I'd put a lot more credence in that field.
No clue on osteos.
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Read John Izzo's rant about trainers.
Same thing here - there are a lot of quacks, but that doesn't mean that we have to blacklist the whole community...
And the pseudoscience thing - that doesn't bother me at all. All complementary medicine is kind of illegal here. Plus I've had my share of chinese energy practices and practitioners.
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Tsvetan Vasilev
I want to know. I want to be able to. I want to be.
Sure! These guys work with injured people and only half of them know what to do on the prevention and further training pages. I'm cool with that. After all - I am the guy that's responsible for the performance training and injury prevention.
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Tsvetan Vasilev
I want to know. I want to be able to. I want to be.
Not a fan of chiropractic. Sure, those "adjustments" make you feel better, but do you ever wonder why people (have to) keep going back to feel better? Because they treat a symptom (joint and spinal pain) without addressing the illness (muscle and postural imbalances).
Maybe its because I usually only seek out chiros who have athletic backgrounds and are ART certified (so they know my mindset and will do soft tissue work along with adjustments) but Ive been through a lot of chiros since Ive moved alot, and the only times I had to go frequently at first was because I subluxed my spine. Another time, I strained a psoas and that took a lot of soft tissue work to get back to normal. Other than that, I go whenever I fuck up in my lifting since I now can catch this stuff early and dont have to worry about the soft tissue getting fucked up being the acute issue.
In my opinion, sometimes you need both soft tissue and chiropractic work. Ive had shit that needed adjustment no matter how much good soft tissue work I had done.
Also, I think its a little unfair to throw postural or muscle imbalances onto chiros. Theyre not physical therapists or trainers so while I expect them to know about those issues and recommend things, its not really up to them to fix them (though they could recommend a trainer but then again most trainers suck).
And Ive never been to a chiro who has used magnets or titanium or any of that shit.
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The sad thing about my chiro is that he's ART certified (that's why I went to him in the first place) and only after the first time or two did I realize that he'd been doing chiro stuff when I specifically said not to. Not a whole lot of options in Charlotte.
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Theyre not physical therapists or trainers so while I expect them to know about those issues and recommend things, its not really up to them to fix them (though they could recommend a trainer but then again most trainers suck).
Maybe not a trainer so much as a physical therapist or sports medicine doctor, but yes, they should provide recommendations for other avenues of treatment--IMHO, chiro in and of itself is shady because it perpetuates itself (you feel good after a treatment, then a week or two later, you have to go back to feel good again, kinda like crack *bah-dum-bum*, without addressing the root problem).
__________________ No Magic Pill (the log)
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The sad thing about my chiro is that he's ART certified (that's why I went to him in the first place) and only after the first time or two did I realize that he'd been doing chiro stuff when I specifically said not to. Not a whole lot of options in Charlotte.
On the contrary, I used to live in Oxford, Oh and the chiro there wasnt ART certified but def knew his soft tissue work and other methods beyond adjusting. So I think that its hard to make generalizations as there will be good ones as well as sucky ones.
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Maybe not a trainer so much as a physical therapist or sports medicine doctor, but yes, they should provide recommendations for other avenues of treatment--IMHO, chiro in and of itself is shady because it perpetuates itself (you feel good after a treatment, then a week or two later, you have to go back to feel good again, kinda like crack *bah-dum-bum*, without addressing the root problem).
Well I know that the root of my problem is lifting heavy weights ballistically. If I fuck up hard enough once or just have buildup from cumulatively fucking up, then Im going to live with getting treated on going. Thats not the fault of the chiro.
Same with regular people. If you dont go find a good trainer to address your muscle imbalances, then youll have the same problem which can be treated by chiropractic. Its interesting that no one dismisses MDs and their profession entirely despite that their method of choice is just giving you a pill without also addressing the root problem.
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
GqArtguy.....how exactly did you "sublux" your spine? There's a lot of controversy with that term and the spine in physical medicine.
I was doing heavy overhead side bends back in the day and I guess I went to far or something and heard a popping sound that caused some hamstring tightness on one leg, lower back tightness, and general tension. I saw the x-ray taken from behind me and could see that my spine was not in a straight line. That was pretty fucked up.
After about a month of adjustments, xrays were retaken and the spine was straight. Never had problems since.
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
hmmm....well surgeons typically argue that the ligaments around the spine are very strong and it takes a significant force to even move the spine (which involves tearing those ligaments). It is coming from the traditional medical point of view, so there is a bias in opinion. You can google it to find more about the topic.
hmmm....well surgeons typically argue that the ligaments around the spine are very strong and it takes a significant force to even move the spine (which involves tearing those ligaments). It is coming from the traditional medical point of view, so there is a bias in opinion. You can google it to find more about the topic.
It wasnt super fucked up because I caught it early rather than wait a long time. The point is that Ive had issues were the ortho tells me to stop lifting or to just rest, then I go back to lifting and the pain is still there.
Meanwhile, chiropractic care (with soft tissue work) has fixed all of my structural issues and I only go when I need to. Yes I have to keep going because of what I do, but at the same time, no one just goes to a Dr. once (espcially if you have a chronic disease of some sort).
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
That's the problem I have with a lot of the medical community (ortho MD's, Chiro's, PT's)....they usually not well versed in exercise and just make recommendations based on false assumptions. I understand the need to address soft tissue on a continuing basis (SMR, ART, etc.) due to your activity level, not sure about the need to get regular "adjustments" though. You run the risk of having ligamentous laxity with continued spinal manipulation.
That's the problem I have with a lot of the medical community (ortho MD's, Chiro's, PT's)....they usually not well versed in exercise and just make recommendations based on false assumptions. I understand the need to address soft tissue on a continuing basis (SMR, ART, etc.) due to your activity level, not sure about the need to get regular "adjustments" though. You run the risk of having ligamentous laxity with continued spinal manipulation.
Once every month and a half isnt going to induce ligamentous laxity. And like I said before, Ive had plain soft tissue work done when I knew my hips or part of my spine was 'out of alignment' and the soft tissue was just very temporary whereas getting adjusted fixed the problem and let me regain mobility.
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
hmm....I wonder if there are any studies examining ligamentous laxity and spinal thrust manipulation frequency. I'm supposed to sign up for the ART lower extremity seminar next month....soft tissue work isn't emphasized on PT board exams, so I guess that's why it is not emphasized in my school curriculum.
Ther is no question as to whether there are good chiros.
The question is "what is the GDMN difference?"
Any difference in what they study?
Any difference in what they actually do? (don't quote the crappy ones)
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Tsvetan Vasilev
I want to know. I want to be able to. I want to be.
Unfortunately, many aspects of chiropractic are marred in pseudo-science. I think there are some very good "chiropracTORS", however I have a problem with many of the philosophies of "chiropracTIC". Unfortunately, both PT's and Chiro's and Osteos can choose to which degree they decide to pursue additional knowledge. The PT who just irons..errrrr... ultrasounds and hot-packs Px's isn't a better option. Oftentimes the treatments overlap between professions. In this case we must look at specific interventions vs. professions.
I have been fortunate in my experiences with PT's - seeing those who continuously seek further knowledge and specialize. They have the same scope as chiros and do manips as well. The difference I've observed is that PT's use manips. as an adjunct therapy - not a primary one. I've had intramuscular stimulation, adjustments as well as mobilizations to treat some of my msk complaints.
Back to chiropracTIC. Some of the aspects of it that leave me distrusting:
Subluxation: This is a diagnostic apparition - a fanciful fad diagnosis that has NEVER been shown to be a primary cause of disease or dis-ease. This is the magical buzzterm that chiros are permited to bill for and you are almost guaranteed to by Dx'd with "subluxations" if you see one.
Adjustments = health: I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth when I hear chiros promote their services as "essential to health". They prescribe "maintenance adjustments" to those who are perfectly healthy and tell Px's that it should be treated like going to the dentist for check-ups (except more often).
The notion that treatments will make organs work better and curing childhood ailments are other aspects of the philosophy that bother me. I'm also not a fan of chiros charging for nutritional advice and selling supplements.
You may say it's a few apples that spoil the bunch, but I would contend that there are a few good apples that have been spoiled by an overwhelming bunch of bad apples.
yea...pretty much everything you've said is why chiro's can be controversal. I did meet a really good one when he was teaching a squat clinic to the trainers at one of my jobs. I had a conversation with him and he does stray away from traditional chiro thinking....he's more like a PT actually.
Unfortunately, many aspects of chiropractic are marred in pseudo-science. I think there are some very good "chiropracTORS", however I have a problem with many of the philosophies of "chiropracTIC". Unfortunately, both PT's and Chiro's and Osteos can choose to which degree they decide to pursue additional knowledge. The PT who just irons..errrrr... ultrasounds and hot-packs Px's isn't a better option. Oftentimes the treatments overlap between professions. In this case we must look at specific interventions vs. professions.
I have been fortunate in my experiences with PT's - seeing those who continuously seek further knowledge and specialize. They have the same scope as chiros and do manips as well. The difference I've observed is that PT's use manips. as an adjunct therapy - not a primary one. I've had intramuscular stimulation, adjustments as well as mobilizations to treat some of my msk complaints.
Goood *rubs hands*
So that kinda helps. I have been confused by monitoring good chiropractors and PTs. That's a good start. I am right that they all wind up at the same alley, IF they what to and pursue the additional knowledge path. Something like me wanting to know more after I became a trianer. That suits me.
So Core ...would you recommend the chiropractic and getting better route, or the PT and getting better route?
__________________
Tsvetan Vasilev
I want to know. I want to be able to. I want to be.
We've all seen enough bad PTs and bad Chiros, but also enough good ones so that throwing out the baby with the bathwater would be foolish.
It's been my experience that good PTs and Chiro's have something in common: Constant continuing education, and being willing to admit they can't solve every issue.
If your PT or Chiro isn't one of those then keep looking.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
1) DH had constant, chronic back pain for over a year. He went to a chiropractor for 3 months and she "adjusted" his back each week. At the end of 3 months, the pain was gone, and he stopped going. Pain never returned. She did try to convince us that we needed to go continuously to "maintain spinal health," and dearly believes chiro can cure just about any medical malady....(which we don't buy). But I can't argue with the results. Moral of the story: SOMETIMES chiropractors can cure chronic pain that traiditional medical/surgical interventions can't. This is also true for accupuncture (cured my aunt's bursitis which she had suffered for years)
2) For our family doctor, we see a D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy). He received the same medical training (medical schoool, residency, Board exams) as M.D.s do, but ALSO received training in chiropractic methods. When I had a neck problem, I went to him (instead of the chiro). He used some sort of ultrasonic device (at least I *think* that's what it was) to relieve the (I think it was) muscle spasm. Well, I don't know how, but it worked. My point is that I think, with his D.O. training, he is more open to firtst trying non-medical interventions than perhaps a typical MD (who might go directly to his script pad).
- J
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So that kinda helps. I have been confused by monitoring good chiropractors and PTs. That's a good start. I am right that they all wind up at the same alley, IF they what to and pursue the additional knowledge path. Something like me wanting to know more after I became a trianer. That suits me.
So Core ...would you recommend the chiropractic and getting better route, or the PT and getting better route?
hey ts,
I have to agree with Kuri in that it matters how much dedication practitioners put into their continuing journey of education. Are you looking for one for yourself or to recommend people to? I can only make recommendations based on my personal experience and draw from the literature in terms of which interventions have a good track record for the given condition/complaint.
I personally have a small handful of PT's I recommend based on geograpy/specialization, etc. but I recommend establishing a relationship of sorts with a couple of professionals. I also know of a couple of evidence-based ortho-minded chiros that I trust.
Sorry my answer isn't as clear-cut as you may have wished but it really does depend on many factors.
I have to agree with Kuri in that it matters how much dedication practitioners put into their continuing journey of education. Are you looking for one for yourself or to recommend people to? I can only make recommendations based on my personal experience and draw from the literature in terms of which interventions have a good track record for the given condition/complaint.
I personally have a small handful of PT's I recommend based on geograpy/specialization, etc. but I recommend establishing a relationship of sorts with a couple of professionals. I also know of a couple of evidence-based ortho-minded chiros that I trust.
Sorry my answer isn't as clear-cut as you may have wished but it really does depend on many factors.
All the best!
As clear as the sky of Denmark!
Neither.
I am looking forward to becoming one. Kind of ashamed to admit it. I'm addicted. I can never know enough. It drives me nuts. A lot of other details contributing too.
So:
- continuing education passion - CHECK
- strength and conditioning backgorund - CHECK
- corrective exercise/post-rehab background - CHECK
Where to now?
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Tsvetan Vasilev
I want to know. I want to be able to. I want to be.
Neither.
I am looking forward to becoming one. Kind of ashamed to admit it. I'm addicted. I can never know enough. It drives me nuts. A lot of other details contributing too.
So:
- continuing education passion - CHECK
- strength and conditioning backgorund - CHECK
- corrective exercise/post-rehab background - CHECK
Where to now?
You come over as an intelligent guy with a curious mind. I would have thought that would make you a natural skeptic (a praiseworthy moniker in my opinion). I wonder how you'd feel about some of the pseudoscientific things you'd get taught as a chiro?
I did a massage course last year and some of the hokum I had to swallow in silence was pretty painful: the idea that the therapist can feel "crystals of toxin" in the muscles. Err yeah right.
Neither.
I am looking forward to becoming one. Kind of ashamed to admit it. I'm addicted. I can never know enough. It drives me nuts. A lot of other details contributing too.
So:
- continuing education passion - CHECK
- strength and conditioning backgorund - CHECK
- corrective exercise/post-rehab background - CHECK
Where to now?
Good to see that you're motivated to be a really good clinician....hopefully we'll be colleagues in the future. I'm at that stage as well where I'm always looking to learn. Have you heard of any PT/Strength Coach in your area? if so, how successful are they?
Have you heard of any PT/Strength Coach in your area? if so, how successful are they?
None in my area. Even though most PTs work out, they are by no means strength coaches. I have a "person I know"(friend) called Michael Stare(Spectrum Fitness Consulting) who runs a facility where all of the coaches are PTs. From what I know of Mike - he's good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilC
You come over as an intelligent guy with a curious mind. I would have thought that would make you a natural skeptic (a praiseworthy moniker in my opinion). I wonder how you'd feel about some of the pseudoscientific things you'd get taught as a chiro?
I am blessed with the gift of low self image. That is a good thing. I am willing to accept that people know better than me, making me a better student.
I am really scared that they'll teach me some kind of BS and I won't do good with my classes because I simply cannot accept BS and I am not good at remembering anything that is of no iportance/interest/is not true. That's a bad thing, making me an awful student.
Will I be able to keep up with the academic side of it? I doubt it.
Will I be able to keep up with the practical side of it? I will, but will my teachers keep up with me?
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Tsvetan Vasilev
I want to know. I want to be able to. I want to be.
That's pretty cool that there's a gym full of PT's...how do you know this person?
I don't "know" him, but we excanged e-mails back in the day. I got to him trough T-Nation and Eric Cressey. We had a chat. He was an open and knowledgable guy. I liked that he was doing and here I am
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Tsvetan Vasilev
I want to know. I want to be able to. I want to be.
Chiro vs. PT vs. Osteo
...would you recommend the chiropractic and getting better route, or the PT and getting better route?
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