I wanted to throw out a link to an absolutely fantastic blog, Dax Moy's Personal Trainer Success Academy blog: Personal Trainer Success Academy
Dax touches on tons of valuable info in the blog and does it all without most of the marketing strategies we have all come to expect from blog posts and newsletters. In fact his most current blog post really fits with a lot of the discussions we have had here recently about marketing and the fitness industry.
When was the last time you walked into Amazon, Barnes and Noble or even your local bookstore to buy a book?
Was it recently?
When you were browsing around reading the book-sleeve, did an attendant run up to you and say "Quick! There's only 2 left! Buy it before they go!"?
What about the last time you bought a book?
Did you hand over the book and the money only to find out that they'd thrown 18 other books, a CD collection, a bunch of book tokens, the author's telephone number and a money-off voucher to Starbucks in your bag?
No?
I wonder why that is?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it's because bookstores generally value the works of each individual author and rely upon the fact that people are buying, say, a Stephen King novel because they actually like his work, value his craftsmanship actually WANT his book.
Nothing more, nothing less than that.
It's funny then, that in the internet publishing world we tend to do the exact opposite.
We tell people that 'There's only 4 left!' or that 'The price will go up at midnight... I can't guarantee the price!' or that 'Due to such high demand we'll be discontinuing the book but when we bring it back it'll be twice as expensive".
Worse still, we sell the book itself and then bundle it with a stack of bonuses so large that it would take 2 solid months of 8 hour days to get through them.. even if they wanted to!
(I recently looked at a product that had 103 'bonus' items attached to it!)
I also want to mention that I recently picked up his product "Scientific Advertising for the Fitness Professional" and have been impressed with it. The best part was that I had an issue with my order and his automated software not sending me my download. When I e-mailed Dax about the issue he personally e-mailed me back in under 30 minutes with the link to the download and an apology. It was fantastic customer service.
I feel like a lot of us have been asking what the next step for fitness marketing is, and I really feel like Dax is probably it.
Danny
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Limitations are for people who have them.
OG, are you saying that Dax is talking out of both sides of his mouth?
I'll preface this by saying that I'm taking part in the 12 Days things, as my gift was on the first day.
What I believe he's saying in his blog post is that when one puts a product up for sale, it should be good enough to stand on its' own two feet. It shouldn't need 1500 free things that supposedly add up to $4000 of value for a $20 book.
I don't think that has anything to do with his free offers on the 12 Days thing. Of course it's a list building tool. He's plainly said it in his advertising emails, I've told my list that, and I bet a bunch of the other contributors have. We've all told our people that they're welcome to unsubscribe from any list that they join.
It does give a lot of people the opportunity to get a lot of cool information from one place.
I was a user of the 12 Days last year, and I got a ton of great information that basically turned my business around. I've noticed that there doesn't seem to be as much fitness business info this year, but the offer is young and I don't know what's coming up.
Dax is in this business to make money. So is Pat Rigsby (who posts here on occasion), the other starter of the program. So am I. That doesn't mean that we don't give away a lot of great information for free. Helping people and giving away info, which we enjoy doing, is also great for business. I don't see why the two can't coexist.
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Isaac Wilkins, M.Ed, CSCS, NSCA-CPT, and who cares what other letters?
The only thing this blog post says is that you don't have to give away products to make a sale. I agree with that. He's right. The more you give away the more you are costing yourself. If you did the math you are probably loosing money.
He didn't condemn the long form or any of the other methodology that we are all so vehemently against.
In fact from looking at his site he uses the same methods everyone else uses. He is hardly unique. Taken by itself I have no arguments with the blog post. It is solid.
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Past performance is not indicative of future success.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
I didn't realize that it was hidden. Dax did train and own a studio. I have no idea if he still does.
Now he does a lot of business coaching and consulting for fitness professionals.
I'm going to post a very simplistic question (simplistic because I can make an argument to answer it, but it still needs asking). Please forgive me, too, for what is a rather undeveloped analysis, but I'm trying to get this post done and get off for the day.
Why does "moving up" to become a marketing/business consultant for fitness professionals elevate someone's status, in many people's eyes, over someone who chooses to continue to actively simply train or coach clients and become a better trainer/coach?
I think many fitness professionals harbor a secret desire to "graduate up" from actual training to simply being a business person who somehow makes money off fitness.
If someone just wants to make a lot of money off fitness, then graduating up is probably not the route. If you want to make lots of money, then become an entrepreneur who happens to have fitness products or services as what they sell, but the goal is to make money, period. The product or service is actually interchangeable.
Generally if someone is an entrepreneur, they are out to make money first, and the product or service is irrelevant, or at least takes the back seat.
I think that selling fitness professionals on some sort of progression from struggling trainer, to more successful trainer to whatever comes next is a bit of a false promise. It pretty much comes down to being either the trainer or the money makes. It's really hard to be both. Just because someone can do it does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that lots of people can do it, at least not while maintain strong quality and integrity of the product (fitness/training quality/value).
I'm going to post a very simplistic question (simplistic because I can make an argument to answer it, but it still needs asking). Please forgive me, too, for what is a rather undeveloped analysis, but I'm trying to get this post done and get off for the day.
Why does "moving up" to become a marketing/business consultant for fitness professionals elevate someone's status, in many people's eyes, over someone who chooses to continue to actively simply train or coach clients and become a better trainer/coach?
I think many fitness professionals harbor a secret desire to "graduate up" from actual training to simply being a business person who somehow makes money off fitness.
If someone just wants to make a lot of money off fitness, then graduating up is probably not the route. If you want to make lots of money, then become an entrepreneur who happens to have fitness products or services as what they sell, but the goal is to make money, period. The product or service is actually interchangeable.
Generally if someone is an entrepreneur, they are out to make money first, and the product or service is irrelevant, or at least takes the back seat.
I think that selling fitness professionals on some sort of progression from struggling trainer, to more successful trainer to whatever comes next is a bit of a false promise. It pretty much comes down to being either the trainer or the money makes. It's really hard to be both. Just because someone can do it does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that lots of people can do it, at least not while maintain strong quality and integrity of the product (fitness/training quality/value).
Chris, I understand what you're saying, but perhaps you misunderstood me.
I wasn't trying to imply that Dax had "moved up", although I'm sure his income has. I was trying to indicate that his business had changes and give an idea of what little I knew of his past history, since OG wanted to know what his business was.
I am a trainer, that's what I love to do, and that's what I'll keep doing at least in some capacity. I'm personally thrilled with the idea of running my own business, training-based, but I also got my undergrad in a business discipline and I've loved writing for as long as I can remember. Based on my life interests I can see myself training, running a business, and writing. I think there is a sense that trainers feel that in order to be successful they need to write a book (or whatever).
I'm not particularly interested in becoming a marketing consultant, as that's part of the business that I truly dislike. I could see myself developing training systems and operations systems for other businesses, but I'd rather just keep making my own successful.
I agree and disagree with you on the prospect of not being able to make money and be a good trainer at the same time. I think one can make a very, very good living training clients. The question is where does the priority lie and how much money are you talking about. If someone's looking to make $500k or more a year, then probably actually training clients isn't going to happen. You'd be too busy on book tours, seminars, opening facilities, etc doing whatever necessary to hit a mass market. There's a big jump between the $50k trainer and the $500k "trainer", though.
Personally I'm looking to train move towards about 20 hours of personal clients per week, have a small facility with 1-3 trainers under me, and keep writing. I think it's important for a trainer to maintain clients to force you to keep getting better. Once you become a paper pusher you lose that element a bit.
This was a bit disjointed, but hopefully I got my point across.
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Isaac Wilkins, M.Ed, CSCS, NSCA-CPT, and who cares what other letters?
Issac, thanks for the reply. I wasn't really addressing your post, per se, but the situation overall.
The "moving up" comments, I suppose, can be summarized as my impression that being successful/making lots of money is actually more valued that providing good training. There is nothing at all wrong with respecting and valuing a high quality art/skill/ability, in this case, being a really good trainer.
I think of the definition of pornography, knowing it when you see it. There is some invisible, moving line that one crosses at some point where the income drive/concern supercedes the concern for training/quality.
My suspicion is that someone, at some point, maybe a Ryan Lee, maybe a Dax Moy, maybe not, becomes a money maker over being a good trainer. And, I use the term trainer loosely. It might be someone selling fitness products or services that staff or other clients deliver, or it might be selling a fitness business system.
Generally, I think the best stuff work -- best training, best food, best art, whatever -- comes from the technician in the trenches. Yes, with some business savvy, a decent living can be made doing that. But to move past some yet-undefined income level, the quality/skill/art takes a back seat, and it become about the money. People can fool themselves as to what is their motivation and what sacrifices of quality they are making or fostering, and people working to "train the trainers" might also be playing a pied piper song to trainers looking to better their stead.
Just an observation/caution, not to you, but perhaps just to hear myself talk and feel important about my analysis.
I've stolen this thread; this should properly be it's own topic. To be fair, I've tabbed Dax's blog and I'll check him out a few times to see what's he's about.
I think you asked a fantastic question. To me it isn't so much "moved up" as it is provide a service or education in an area I am unfamiliar.
I know nothing about marketing or business. I do know that I need to know about marketing and business to be sucessful in this industry so I had to seek out and learn about that side of things. I started by using standard marketing or sales texts but the problem was that applying them to fitness ideas wasn't always easy. So to me its much easier and more time efficient to seek out trainers who are not only great trainers* but who are very sucessful on the business side of things and read how they did it. I would rather spend twice as much money on a book by Dax with proven methods of fitness advertising that I can read and apply as soon as I read it then get a lower cost general advertising product and have to experiment and adapt it to fitness marketing.
So for me it isn't so much that they have "moved up" in the fitness world simply that they have achieved success in an area that I want to achieve success so I want to know what they can teach me. If I could train for the rest of my life and make enough money to provide for a family that would be awesome. I have zero desire to move into the business side of things but I really appreciate the people like Dax and Ryan Lee who do and can help me make more money.
*Dax is also a pretty fantastic trainer. If you find some of his training articles you will find its very similar to a lot of the stuff we all talk about. He really is a guy who walks the walk on both the fitness side and the business side.
Danny
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Limitations are for people who have them.
I don't see anything wrong with the 12 days of Fitness promo. It isn't shady marketing or offering millions of bonuses on his products its a collection of trainers getting together trying to get there name out to new audiences. Everyone wins with a situation like this. People can choose if they want to get free info from trainers and if they choose yes then the trainer gets a chance to market to a new person. If the product sucks than chances are the trainer won't make any money.
Danny
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Limitations are for people who have them.
I don't see anything wrong with the 12 days of Fitness promo. It isn't shady marketing or offering millions of bonuses on his products its a collection of trainers getting together trying to get there name out to new audiences. Everyone wins with a situation like this. People can choose if they want to get free info from trainers and if they choose yes then the trainer gets a chance to market to a new person. If the product sucks than chances are the trainer won't make any money.
Danny
Exactly.
One thing I'll mention "behind the scenes" for those of us who contributed. We were cautioned very hard by Dax and Pat not to add marketing to our products. We were allowed a bio page and links to our website (duh), but they went out of the way to tell us not to sell anything. They also checked out most, if not all, of the products beforehand. I've not heard if they turned any down, but I've also not asked.
I'm sure you're thinking "sure, lure them in with free stuff and THEN sell them". Well, again, duh. If your business is based on online sales, then that's how it works. However, if your free stuff is crap, then there's no way in hell you're going to convince someone to pay money for your other stuff.
***Interesting note on bonuses: I recently heard a local diamond seller's ad on the radio pushing engagement rings for the Christmas season. They gave the usual blah blah about the rings and sale, but their final offer was: Buy before December 26th and receive a genuine leather photo album!
Seriously? The promise of a photo album (even a nice one) is going to convince me to come to your store for an ENGAGEMENT ring over another store?
Someone explain that one to me.
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Isaac Wilkins, M.Ed, CSCS, NSCA-CPT, and who cares what other letters?
One thing I'll mention "behind the scenes" for those of us who contributed. We were cautioned very hard by Dax and Pat not to add marketing to our products. We were allowed a bio page and links to our website (duh), but they went out of the way to tell us not to sell anything. They also checked out most, if not all, of the products beforehand. I've not heard if they turned any down, but I've also not asked.
OK, so I went to the first guy, Vince DelMonte. Signed up for his newsletter and the "free gifts". Once I clicked on submit it went to this page.
More of the same shit.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
I came across some of Dax's stuff on Youtube. It was OK. Seemed basically solid.
I read some of Dax's blog. Also generally OK. I did laugh/cringe at him replying to a commnent about something he posted on a/his site a while back which he referred to as "the style of writing in vogue back then." It was essentailly the style of fitnessness/marketing writing used a bit ago, and still used by many today, that gets blasted by some here. In vogue for what trainers were told to do by Ryan or someone. Not necessarily in vogue by people reading it.
Danny, I hear what you're saying about learning about business and marketing. The funny thing is that I bought a couple of Ryan's DVD's a while back. In one of them, essentially a video of a seminar presentation he gave (six figure trainer), he takes simple marketing stuff I've come across in other training materials (I call it the marketing for dummies stuff, since it is now pretty common knowledge to anyone who pays attention to such stuff) and focuses it/slants it to fitness professionals. Seems easy enough, but he was the first to really do it. Bang. Instant success. I'm not sure if I'm more jealous, more astounded, or more perplexed.
I'm not sure what my point is, exactly (Friday night, and I've already gone out with the missus, eaten some stuff, and had a few beers ). So, I'll defer to something my martial arts grandmaster said a couple of years ago at a meeting of black belt instructors: (paraphrased): "You hear a lot these days about good marketing, all over the place, over and over; you don't hear much, if anything, about good martial arts." That's, perhaps, my main caution in all of us. When it comes down to it, business is business and training (quality) is a separate matter. Don't get the two confused, for oneself, of course, but also in the people we consult with, or even admire, for what they've achieved.
I don't begrudge anyone for making a decent living at what they do. Just grist for the mill.
As a student of Dax's current Mentor program, I will quite obviously defend his position, and put to rest some things that are not clarified on this thread...
1. Dax does train clients on a day to day basis, along with his extensive team of trainers at his studio in London.
2. He is in my eyes the most influential trainer in the UK if not the world for his techniques of assessment and training mechanisms to make incredible changes to every one of his clients.
3. The 12 days of fitness promotion IS the real deal. The program allows many trainers like me break into the world of online marketing, yet at the same time provide the public some awesome free information. The feedback I have had from my own list members has been amazing, with many shocked with what information they are being GIVEN!
4. If you want to learn more about yourself, your business and your life then there is no better person to have as a mentor. Having met with and spoken to dax at length on many occasions, he is a genuine, kind and very generous individual looking to help as many people get more out of this profession as possible.
Yes it is a business and good luck to anyone who doesn't fear making just a fraction of the billions of dollars being spent by the consumers on health and fitness every year!
As a student of Dax's current Mentor program, I will quite obviously defend his position, and put to rest some things that are not clarified on this thread...
1. Dax does train clients on a day to day basis, along with his extensive team of trainers at his studio in London.
2. He is in my eyes the most influential trainer in the UK if not the world for his techniques of assessment and training mechanisms to make incredible changes to every one of his clients.
3. The 12 days of fitness promotion IS the real deal. The program allows many trainers like me break into the world of online marketing, yet at the same time provide the public some awesome free information. The feedback I have had from my own list members has been amazing, with many shocked with what information they are being GIVEN!
4. If you want to learn more about yourself, your business and your life then there is no better person to have as a mentor. Having met with and spoken to dax at length on many occasions, he is a genuine, kind and very generous individual looking to help as many people get more out of this profession as possible.
Yes it is a business and good luck to anyone who doesn't fear making just a fraction of the billions of dollars being spent by the consumers on health and fitness every year!
Hope that clears a few things up...
Tim
It's about time you stepped out and posted! How are we supposed to learn what the deal is if nobody participates?
It least it's not one of those long page ads. Only took 77 page-down presses to get to the bottom.
Granted, I don't like the trainer clone ads.
But, realistically, if one is doing or producing good work and chooses to follow what is supposedly an effective marketing system, then I can, begrudgingly, accept that (I say begrudging because, well, right is right and good taste is good taste, even if we have the freedom to do otherwise).
However, my initial post of criticism, or caution, is that many people -- that includes many fitness professionals who want to make more money (nothing wrong with that, in itself -- come to MORE admire the success, per se, of, say, a Ryan Lee or whomever, than whether the products and services are presented properly or accurately, or even if they are effective. My position is that the more one pursues success on the business end, the more they compromise their quality, their accuracy (integrity?).
People don't want to hear that, but it is at least true to an extent. Sure, Ryan throws out a cursory "None of this matters unless what you offer is quality/good." But, that's it. The training after that is all "How to sell to more people/as many people as possible," with no time given to address the notion of "How to ensure you can offer quality and be effective for people, while increasing your business."
IMO, the mass marketing of fitness is McDonalds-like. Sure, you're feeding people, but are you really offering people the best you can for them? A fitness businessperson saying, '"What I offer is good; it can help people if they follow it" is akin to McDonald's saying, "We feed people, and it is healthy as long as they don't abuse it."
What ever happened to offering true quality that is good for people, that helps people, and not trying to maximize profit? I just want the message from Ryan, Dax, Jim Labadie or whomever to emphasize being a better/the best trainer possible, and how to offer the best service possible, as much as it emphasizes how to be as successful as possible. And, for pete's sake, don't compromise good taste for marketing purposes. The two have to travel together and deserve equal time. I might say that Ryan has gotten rich off of the backs people -- trainers and their clients/markets -- who deserve better. That might be harsh, but I have a lot higher standard than run of the mill American capitalism.
I'd actually love to actually talk about this with Ryan, Dax, Jim or whomever. I am happy to be proved misguided and unfair. I could be exciting discussion. But, hey, even JP's interview with Ryan is about three months overdue now.
But, realistically, if one is doing or producing good work and chooses to follow what is supposedly an effective marketing system, then I can, begrudgingly, accept that (I say begrudging because, well, right is right and good taste is good taste, even if we have the freedom to do otherwise).
I agree, and to be honest, I know I've purchased a couple of things that used that style. They were not THAT long, though. I remember the effect working on me, in fact. It gets you excited as you keep reading down and down. So, I get it.
But, at some point, the reader will get tired. It's a little long. If I actually read all that, I'd need to eat again before purchasing.
I'm just wondering why he stopped at 77 page downs. He was so close to 100. "I got another good recommendation, where can I add it in?" Longer is better, right?
It's about time you stepped out and posted! How are we supposed to learn what the deal is if nobody participates?
Hi Chris
not sure what you mean by this exactly but I'll take it as a good thing
Despite my Mentor and the successful coaches I have spoken too MY whole take on this subject of long form, quality products etc etc may surprise you.
I have read more "copy" than I care to remember, and I actually buy products on the basis of recommendation from my peers rather than what the copy actually says... so good ole advertising and salesmanship the way it has always been. I don't really like the long form, yet I do use it on my current Information product and to some degree, the website I have for my face to face training too. The reason, because I feel I have something to say that will help people understand what they are buying is for them, I am not trying to trick them, deceive or otherwise.
The information product i have created was not written in a day, nor was it ghost written, nor is it based on false science and the latest fads. It is information on the subject I am most passionate about, this was something that Dax pretty much insists on, you must remain true to yourself , your passions and your background... just because New Mom's, or Bootcamps are the latest and greatest does not mean you should "cash in" on it! Especially if it is not something you are passionate about!
Yes I do want to make money out of fitness, but only if it is doing something that excites me, is within my sphere of passion, and so that I can deliver the highest quality product to all my clients and customers. PERIOD
I think that you'll find with people like Dax and Pat Rigsby, that they do pretty much the same.
There are so many analogies to fitness I’m not sure where to begin. Not many of you would do a program just because someone said it worked for them without first looking at the fundamentals on which it was designed. As you know there is more to it than that. There are too many variables to account for. Whatever you do make sure that you are learning program design and not blindly doing a program that is handed to you without accounting for your particular goals, objectives, and circumstance.
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Past performance is not indicative of future success.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
I like the 12 Days of Christmas. I made the mistake last year of downloaded every single item, but this year I've only picked out the ones that interest me or I feel like reading. I don't need a new program, so I just passed over the workout routines. I focused on the nutrition and sports related stuff, also some of the psychological articles. I just fill in the name and email. I don't let myself become distracted by the ad pages it brings me to. Get in, get the info, get out. The ad stuff only bothers you if you let it. I get the free articles, give them a glance over, and if I think I'll bother reading them, save them to my computer. I think it's a great way for some new names to get out. I also think theres a lot of rehashed information. Granted, I consider myself fairly well versed in fitness. Not an expert, but I get the general eat good food, lots of veggies, hydrate, basic stuff that a lot of the articles are. So, I skip it. I view it as all these people are willing to put together this information. If I find something relevant, I'll take it.
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"Rust on a nail builds tetanus. Rust on a barbell builds character, strength, and attitude." -EC
"Don't spend your life wishing. Spend it doing." -FishrCutB8
"You're a mutant, like a snake with two heads or a cat shy one nipple. Be thankful that your mutation is helpful." - LD
DelMonte's "free" gift was basically 20 ways you should buy my product, valued at $752 but you can have it for $77, but that price will go up to $127 and if it does it's your fault for not jumping on it. But there was nothing new that he was stating in the gift. A rehash of everyone's ideas.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
DelMonte's "free" gift was basically 20 ways you should buy my product, valued at $752 but you can have it for $77, but that price will go up to $127 and if it does it's your fault for not jumping on it. But there was nothing new that he was stating in the gift. A rehash of everyone's ideas.
See and this is the great part about the 12 days idea. You weren't a fan of his stuff, so you didn't pay any money and you know in the future that buying stuff from DelMonte isn't a great choice. If he would have provided a better free product that actually taught you something then you would probably be a little more apt to buy something from him in the future. If a trainer doesn't step up and put out a decent product then they risk losing tons of people who now think their stuff is crap.
Danny
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Limitations are for people who have them.
See, I'm a bit different. I dont mind folks trying to make money. I also encourage guys like Danny to find and follow the cutting edge. 3 years ago that was the long type adds we've all grown to dislike, however times change and maybe now someone like Dax is heading the new wave. If he followed the old way previously, thats not a bad thing, it just means he was on the cutting edge back then, but now he's moved on.
12 days of Fitness is different. Its not one product promising a bunch of freebies if you buy it, its clearly marketed as a whole bunch of different products in one.
Great Blog - Dax Moy
). So, I'll defer to something my martial arts grandmaster said a couple of years ago at a meeting of black belt instructors: (paraphrased): "You hear a lot these days about good marketing, all over the place, over and over; you don't hear much, if anything, about good martial arts." That's, perhaps, my main caution in all of us. When it comes down to it, business is business and training (quality) is a separate matter. Don't get the two confused, for oneself, of course, but also in the people we consult with, or even admire, for what they've achieved.
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