Another brilliant idea from Alwyn Cosgrove

[Matthew]

I did a quick search and didn't find anything about this, my apologies if this topic was already covered. Also, I'm not sure if I'm allowed talking about the contents of an interview. It was free to listen to though (you just have to sign up for a newsletter) so I'd imagine it's ok.

I was listening to Dax Moy's interview with Alwyn Cosgrove (really great by the way, I liked it). Almost an hour into the interview Alwyn gets into talking about billing methods for personal trainers. Basically his point was that everyone is billing for their time, when they should be billing for their expertise.

He used this example, if trainer A can reach a client's goals in one week and trainer B reaches that client's goals in eight weeks, common sense tells us that trainer A is better. But trainer B is getting paid more, because he's spending more time with the client.

Now Alwyn states that he's not sure the field is ready for this because it would take a "real mindshift", but he mentions that maybe there should be a fee for reaching goals, as opposed to how much time you spend with the client.

This makes sense to me. I mean, if you are a skilled trainer you will help me reach my goals quickly and will have to spend less time with me. You'll have been paid for helping me reach my goals and now you have room for another client, another goal and another fee. If you aren't as skilled, it will take us longer to reach my goals and it will take more of your time. You're still paid the same amount as the skilled trainer (because it's the same goal) but now you don't have room for another client, so you're missing out on that fee.

I think this is brilliant. I'm not saying he came up with the idea, there must be other people who think this way as well, but it's the first time I've heard it being said and so credit goes to Alwyn. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


My only question is, how would you determine what goals cost what amount? You'd have to consider how long it might take to meet said goal, would you not? How else could you compare one to the other?

[Matthew]

I hope this wasn't old news.

One criticism I see some people having is that if a client doesn't reach their goals in the expected time frame, it could be because they aren't holding up their end of the bargain. But really, part of being a personal trainer is to motivate the client, so if the client is slacking off or not doing their part, maybe the trainer isn't doing his/her job as motivator. That won't always be the case, but certainly sometimes.

[RobLL]

I would like to see a 'freakonomics' sort of analysis of all this.

The best surgeons typically are very fast, so make more by doing more, and reputation means they spend less time on idle.

[Tom Terwilliger]

http://www.PersonalTrainerMast ery.com

Glad to here someone picked on Alwyns take on billing...I thought it might have slipped by everyone. I actually did not hear the interview but I have read Alwyns perspective on this on his Blog.

I love the concept and are surprised that more trainers are not employing it. I have been billing in that way personally for several years.

I will help my clients clearly define their objective (as usual), help them associate into the pain (reason) for wanting it, provide the solution (give examples of similar successes), make sure they understand and completely agree with what it is going to cost them (time, energy, sacrifice...and yes money).

We then set a maximum time frame, 6, 8, 12 weeks. I lay out what they can expect from me and what I expect from them...we come to an agreement. Pretty standard stuff.

Here's where it fit's more closely into Alwyns model.

My fee is based on the specific objective...and is probably a lot higher them most. 8 weeks or 15 lbs as an example would cost the client $3600.

After everything has been presented and agreed upon...I send in the motivator. I might say..."let me ask you something? What if you and I could achieve this goal in only 6 weeks instead of eight?...Would that be of additional value to you?"

If the answer is always yes...I then tell them how I am all about performance based reward, and that I work best under pressure and with a challenge..."and I suspect you do as well"

Then I will feed back to them the deeper motivators that they shared with me earlier (the pain).

"Let's say we were able to achieve this goal, and have you fitting into that size 4 skirt, eliminate this insecurity you feel about your body, and have you ready for the right guy, just incase he comes along a little sooner...in only six weeks, would it be worth an additional $400?"

They always say yes. Particularly when you feed back their deeper core motivators. So now I have the price of what very likely we tern out to be only a six week program at $4000. More then the original $3600 and with less time invested.

Does that make sense? And does that fit into the model that Alwyn was discussing with Dax?

This strategy does work almost all the time...is it manipulation? No. Just as long as I am giving them massive value and achieving their objective using a safe and effective approach.

I would love your thoughts.

By the way if you are interested in hearing more from some of the biggest names in the industry including Dax, Jim Labadie, Ryan Lee, Badros and more you have to check out www.PersonalTrainerMastery.com

I have the privilege of interviewing all of them over the next 7 weeks...it kicked off last night with Pat Rigsby. Talk about content rich man he was awesome.

Tom Terwilliger
Coaching Leadership Excellence

[Matthew]

Thank you both for your responses.

Tom - yowza that's a lot of money! What kind of clientelle are we talking about here?

You seem like you have the sales part of it all figured out, that's great. I'm glad you answered actually, since you seem to have experience with this kind of procedure. Now I can ask questions

What if, hypothetically, you set a maximum time frame and didn't reach your client's goals in time. What do you do? Give their money back? Cut them a discount?

Thanks Tom, and welcome to the forums!

[Tom Terwilliger]

Ah...If you don't achieve the objective in the "maximum" time frame. Great question.

I know you already know this...but either I wasn't doing my job, the task was underestimated (by me), or the client was not fully committed to or clear on the cost.

Assuming you gave 110% to the task, there were no unforeseen, or undetermined obstacles, and you are confident that the client also gave 100%. Then a different approach, modality, or nutrition plan must have been needed...in which case that is my responsibility.

In which case the first thing I have to do is forfeit the $400 bonus...gone!
Then modify the new plan of attach for the remaining period of time and make it happen.

I still collect my regular fee based on the original objective date...because as we know there are no guarantees.

However, if you are the a good enough trainer to even take a value/fee approach like this...then it is very likely that if the goal was not achieved during the minimum bonus time period then it was likely the client who was not fully committed and you and them will know that long before the due date.

Ultimately even that would be my responsibility. Either I didn't read, motivate, or make sure the client understood right from the beginning what it was going to take to achieve the objective.

Not every one is willing to pay that price...Dax talks about that often. But they at least have to be very, very, very clear on it before they can decide if their capable of fully committing. Or if you are willing to make that commitment with them.

Does that...sort of answer your question? Thanks mathew

http://www.PersonalTrainerMast ery.com

www.TomTerwilliger.com

[Matthew]

That does answer my question. Thanks Tom, I appreciate it.

[Paulv]

I'm not a trainer, but I'm looking for one in my area. As a customer, I would be copasetic to this kind of arrangement.

The only long term problem is on the the trainers side, since if I don't like the trainer I can get out of paying h/er by simply eating a bucket of ice-cream every night.

[bryanc]

The problem I see here is that as a client, I'm paying a premium to get results faster. If I don't get results faster, why should I be paying a premium at all? I can understand that there are no guarantees but what happens when a client doesn't attain the mutually agreed upon goal within the sans-bonus time frame (in the above example, 8 weeks)? Why should the trainer get to collect on a premium fee when a premium result has not been achieved (I'm assuming the sans-bonus fee is also at a premium and not at regular rates)? In this case, is there not incentive for the trainer to do less? Obviously if the 8-week fee is a regular fee, and we're ONLY talking about the $400 bonus, then this argument is moot. Let's assume that both trainer and client have done everything they can in this case, because debating about client or trainer fault is pretty pointless to this argument.

[Matthew]

You're talking about Tom's method here, right Bryan?

In Alwyn's method no time frame is set at all. The trainer gets paid when the client reaches their goals. The faster that is, the better for the trainer because now he can work on a new goal - and a new fee. The longer it takes the worse it is for the trainer, because the extra time could have been spent making more money from working towards another goal (with another client or the same one I suppose). But no matter how long it takes or how fast the goal is reached, the same fee is paid.

The only long term problem is on the the trainers side, since if I don't like the trainer I can get out of paying h/er by simply eating a bucket of ice-cream every night.

What a waste of gym time that would be for the client, but I see your point. I guess if you get someone that mean you could always just tell them to take a hike.
But really, how many people do you know that would do something they don't want (miss their goals) just to smite a person?

[bryanc]

Yeah, I was talking about Tom's method.

[karky]

this seems to me as the same as the "teachers get paid based of how well their studens do" lets face it, some people dont have the same potential in for example math, if your out of luck you get a class with not very good potential. same with clients, some are easy to motivate some are not. and i realize a trainers job is to motivate his clients to do well, but regardless. Im pretty sure a trainer would be able to reach my goals quicker than some random slob, because im interrested, if the trainer tells me to do that, and eat that, and so on, i will do it! while alot of other people wont.

just my 2 cents.

[Tom Terwilliger]

You guys rock...all of you. To dissect and debate this particular subject as well as you have says a lot about you. One of those things for sure is that you don't watch nearly as much TV as the average Joe.

Going back to my original model, I deliberately set a time frame because it is one of the key elements in giving the unconsciousness as well as the conscious mind as specific a goal as possible. What you want and when do you want it?

Karky,
your right, not every one has the same potential for achieving any particular goal in the same time frame as someone else and in some cases not at all. In most cases however as experienced trainers we already know what is achievable with either maximal or minimal effort within a given time frame. So we then have to use our experience and best judgment to individualize someone's potential based on their experience, past history, level of motivation est.

Here is the variable in the original scenario: I might set an eight week date for one individual and a 12 week date for another based on achieving the same goal...then price that period accordingly based on my investment.

Then if you recall I slip in the suggestion in the form of a question (..."let me ask you something? What if you and I could achieve this goal in only 6 weeks instead of eight?...Would that be of additional value to you?" ) that it is possible to make this happen a little faster.

Do you see how I not only suggest that its possible but I also get agreement that it is and that it would be of value to the client. If they say "no, I'm ok with the time frame as it is" then we simply move on as planned.

If they say yes which they almost always do then I go for the bonus.

Paulv,
Great scenario (eating a bucket of ice cream...sounds good) and in actuality not that far fetched. After all clients do self sabotage all the time...some with exactly that scenario. That generally happens as they get closer to achieving their objective. If the new potential reality is not congruent with their internal self image (and it very likely is not) then they will often find a way to keep it from happening...or slow it down long enough to make the internal adjustment.

If you have an opportunity to read my article in the April issue of IDEA Fitness Journal "Resetting Your Success Thermostat" I talk specifically about ways you and your clients can make some unconscious shifts more in line with future objectives.

[richarddoughtyfitness]

if you havent seen it cosgrove expands on this topic in his blog today

[richarddoughtyfitness]

honestly i would switch to a model like this if i were more expeirnced (i am still in my first year )
but also i dont like the whole get them in, reach their goal ,and see ya later

most of my clients after hitting their goals with me want to contuine me just contuine at the pace and get better and better
many of my clients have me for the main purpose of being a motavator
if they hit their goal and stopped working out with me , they would stop working out all together

[Leigh P.]

I kind of come from the place of if I do my job right, they don't need me.

I am not saying there isn't a place for accountability, but I don't just try and change the body of my client, I try to educate their mind. And on this point here I am referring to mostly fat loss/body comp changing clients. I have some clients that just enjoy working out with me, they have money to spend, so it is just what it is.

However, most when they get done, are done. By the time they are done, they know almost as much as I do. Some of my clients have gone on to get certified. Education and the mindset of your client are just as key as the programing. Most trainers I see just hold a carrot stick leading to the information, that leaves the client thinking they can't reach their goals without you.

I don't like that.

I like to have a client that chooses to be with me because they choose to learn more, get further, stay inspired, and at times have that accountability that we can ALL use sometimes. I like it more though when they wave goodbye.

[Matthew]

Thanks for letting us know Alwyn wrote about this in his blog, Richard. He did a good job of answering some questions. Looks like he responded to Tom's method, too...
Richard, I'm with you. Once I get experience in the field, I'll be comfortable enough to start this. I really like this method, and I agree [with Alwyn] that it should be the future for fitness professionals.

Leigh, I really like what you wrote. I think I'll be the same way, it will just be natural for me to explain as much as I can to my clients and make sure that they understand the principles behind everything we are doing. I don't want them to fail when sent off on their own, I want them to be able to achieve their goals using their own knowledge, and they can come to me for the really 'tricky' stuff if need be.