In the same theme as the other college thread, I am getting ready to start looking at graduate programs for Strength and Conditioning and would appreciate some outside opinions. In addition to good graduate programs, what concentrations beside the obvious S&C would you all reccomend, if my end goal is too be able to work with an athletic population.
-Ned
So, I'll just dump in my 2 cents and leave the thread alone.
The mentality that university is a place to get "credentialed" as a means to a job is deteriorating the entire intellectual development of university students everywhere. And while universities have also contributed to this mentality in the undergraduate sense (i.e. tailoring their programs to be more content-driven by industry as opposed to knowledge and process transference), in the Master's sense, it is completely baffling; and exists only because _some_ industries require a Master's or a encourage a higher degree for gainful employment.
So, my short answer to people who are interested in an S+C Master's is, "You don't need it. Don't do it."
A Master's degree is not an industry degree. In some cases, it's an opportunity to explore the areas that are not given enough depth in your undergrad and a chance to gain almost-expert knowledge (i.e. the course-based Masters). In other cases, a Master's is an introductory research degree where you'll spend half of your time gaining another, more advanced base of knowledge, to prepare you to produce another piece of (hopefully) new knowledge. In either case, the exercise is in developing a thinking process--not on developing skills. In some programs you will have the opportunity to learn the principles of program design, and you will also have the opportunity to put them to use. However, you also have to be prepared for the fact that you will also have to put time to learn about all the other issues put in front of you, which may include a research thesis (that involves data collection).
So, if your goal is solely to get a Masters for the purpose of possibly gaining access to an elite athletic population, i.e. a college, or national team, (and I would contend that every prospective masters student ask themselves why they want to pursue a Masters), then I would say that there are definitely other ways to achieve that goal. The path to a Masters is not always an easy one and the energy you put into it may not yield the result you want, since generally, someone has to step out of a training role on a team before you step in. For instance, if you wanted Dos' job, Dos would generally need to vacate that spot before you could step into it, since it's unlikely you'd oust him from it.
If you're interested in pursuing _further_ education in kinesiology as a field (which includes S+C, but also health and wellness issues and biomechanics and ex. phys etc etc), then a Masters might be for you.
In terms of programs, I would look carefully at what their graduates are doing and if you're in an academic centre that houses a national team.
Calgary, for instance, houses the national ski teams (downhill, jumping, cross-country), speed skating, bobsled, luge, and some bits of the national swimming team. It also houses the university football, rugby, soccer, hockey, swim, volleyball, basketball teams (I'm sure I'm missing a sport in there); and a Junior A hockey team and an NHL hockey team and a CFL football team. As well as a semi-professional soccer team, and professional lacrosse team. Because of the Olympic legacy from the 1988 winter games, much of the training, while it doesn't take place at the University, goes through University consults. I do know three people who graduated with Masters degrees from the U of C who are now the S+C coaches for the national ski team and the national swim team; and likely hold your dream job.
Does an MSc or MKin from U of Calgary guarantee you an S+C spot? Absolutely not. Not even close. But it probably puts you in a pretty good position for one. Maybe.
If U of C is something you want to pursue as an S+C avenue, I would also discourage anyone from applying generally to the programs. a) It's not how things are done around here and b) you need to position yourself from the pre-application phase to get to where you want to go. I would suggest talking to the grads who are doing what you want to do to see how they got there, which, should be available through the program administrator.
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So, I'll just dump in my 2 cents and leave the thread alone.
This was a very thoughtful post and gives me some good things to think about when considering what I want in a masters degree. I also think that the reality of a masters program is that it isn't just programing as you said but that is a important and fun part of the learning process, which I am aware of. Thanks for the input
I'll put in another plug for UConn's Kinesiology program ... not sure how focused it is on strength and conditioning, but I do know that it is typically interdisciplinary with crossover using other related departments.
So far I'm taking a close look at UConn, Springfield College, UW LaCrosse, and UMASS, but I don't know about going to the same school for undergrad and grad seems like a different school may offer more opportunity for learning new things.
So far I'm taking a close look at UConn, Springfield College, UW LaCrosse, and UMASS, but I don't know about going to the same school for undergrad and grad seems like a different school may offer more opportunity for learning new things.
I have been told that as well ... especially if it is within the same department as the philosophies will generally run the same even if you have different advisors.
I have been told that as well ... especially if it is within the same department as the philosophies will generally run the same even if you have different advisors.
Exactly.
I think that UConn would be ideal in terms of both education and getting experience with higher level athletes, but I've heard it's also reletivley tough to get into.
Ned
In the year I was accepted, I was one of two master's degree students accepted. I believe the applicant pool (doctoral and master's) to work with Dr. Kraemer alone was about 350 that year.
Lots more schools to check out on top of the ones you mentioned above. Memphis has actually come a long way in a short amount of time - great place for research and S&C. Really depends on what your focus is. If you want S&C, go to a bigger D1 school with the programs to accomodate it. If you want research, look to where the funding is headed.
In the year I was accepted, I was one of two master's degree students accepted. I believe the applicant pool (doctoral and master's) to work with Dr. Kraemer alone was about 350 that year.
Lots more schools to check out on top of the ones you mentioned above. Memphis has actually come a long way in a short amount of time - great place for research and S&C. Really depends on what your focus is. If you want S&C, go to a bigger D1 school with the programs to accomodate it. If you want research, look to where the funding is headed.
I was wondering how many spots they had, but it'll be a reach for me. Looks like I'll be checking out the bigger D1s.
Keith: there was a thread in the training forum where someone(I forget who) was looking for undergrad programs in an exercise science related field.
I was courted by UMass Amherst when I graduated from my undergrad. I was definitely not impressed by their funding structure.
In my opinion, graduate students should be funded through their degrees if they're doing thesis-based degrees since they're contributing to the output of the university.
I was courted by UMass Amherst when I graduated from my undergrad. I was definitely not impressed by their funding structure.
In my opinion, graduate students should be funded through their degrees if they're doing thesis-based degrees since they're contributing to the output of the university.
From what I've seen and heard the University as a whole is not well funded and thats why we have things like A&P lab on a computer.
My fiance was co-director of the U of Louisville graduate program in ex science. When they were evaluating some things for the program at U of L, they were looking at some other programs and the recent rankings. Penn State and UCONN were tied for #1 (of course because I was there :-) ), UMASS, U of Georgia, U of Texas at Austin, were all up there as well.
NOW, with regards to S & C specifically, that is a bit different. I would of course investigate the faculty and coursework, but also look into the S & C coaches there whom you can potentially shadow, work with, etc. When I was at UMASS in nutrition, I didn't have any sports nutrition specific classes, but I was the sports nutritionist for their athletic department, so I got a lot of experience through there. And, while I have a PhD meaning I've spent a ton of time in the classroom, a huge part of my learning came from (and continues to come from) personal experience, seminars, conferences, and continual reading, reading, and more reading (both in and out of my field).
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goal is too be able to work with an athletic population
bryanc
Quote:
So, if your goal is solely to get a Masters for the purpose of possibly gaining access to an elite athletic population, i.e. a college, or national team, (and I would contend that every prospective masters student ask themselves why they want to pursue a Masters), then I would say that there are definitely other ways to achieve that goal.
My goal is to work with the elite athletic population but I grew up and went to university in NS. As you may know Calgary is much different then Halifax in many ways, and one huge difference is sports and available facilities.
When I went to university I did not see a career is sports so I did not take any exercise science. I should have listeded to to those who say do what you love. Now a few years latter I have moved to Atlanta, much better weather and sports than in Halifax, and want to work with athletes and do not feel like returning to school fulltime but have found that without a degree in exercise science or related field is making my goal more difficult.
I do have CSCS, USAW, and USAT&F certifications but I am not sure where to go next. I have looked into volunteering with different sports and teams but even that has even been difficult. I would like to hear your thoughts as to the different avenues to reach and eventually work with elite athletes without a masters or science degree?
Thanks
You may want to either try starting at the High School Level, or go the private route and find a credible organization to work with and build your resume and experience. If you look at some of the big names not all have a masters or even an exercise science degree, so It's definately possible without. Experience and results are the 2 biggest factors, so start small, some suggestions that I've received include having group training discounts for off-season High school athletes, hold free seminars with different sports teams (again High School Level), and lastley try to get some older clients who may be able to reccomend you to clients who have children, since it's the parents usually footing the bill it's them you have to impress.
Getting an S&C spot with an elite athletic team (i.e. collegiate level and above) usually requires a related degree of SOME kind. Gone are the days when you could do without that basic requirement. The big names that don't have one are mostly people who have been in the field for a very very long time, when there wasn't a glut of people clambering to break into the field.
I don't know what your educational background is though, so it's hard to be to say whether you meet that basic requirement. A CSCS is not a proxy for the pre-requistite degree.
I would say that in the case that you have a bio-related degree (including kinesiology, or phys ed), then you should really be looking at an apprenticeship of some sort. The benefit to doing a Masters--if you're willing to put in the work for very little pay, is that some schools encorporate this apprenticeing into their program. But if, as you've stated, it's not something you're interested in doing, then you need to hook yourself into a situation where you CAN do that.
I would disagree with umass in that experience and results are the 2 biggest factors in securing your long-term goal of elite athlete access. It still comes down to who you know. If you've been working with the national swim team, when the job comes up, they're going to be more likely to pick you than anyone else, especially if the team has been doing well and you're already familiar with the approach/system/inner workings of the team as a whole (as well as the S&C side of things). Training high school athletes, impressing parents will definitely move you into a position where you will gain a bigger foothold in the high school arena, but unless you subspecialize early on in a single sport in the high school population, you aren't going to know how the sport works at the elite level, nor will you have worked in the "integrated coaching" environment (where the S&C coach is but one aspect of the coaching team)--which is going to detract significantly from any application you make to an elite level team.
I would also say that while results do speak volumes for an application, going off on your own to offer discounts and various "marketing" strategies, that this is a significantly longer route to take. The reality is that S&C is only a single component of training and while it's an important component, I would argue, it's a smaller component to an athlete's success than most of the other factors (sport-specific training still outranking the rest by far). So, the question is, do you really think, as the S&C coach, you can take credit for your athlete's success? And how many successful athletes do you think you need to be to attract the attention of an elite level team, in order to compete with the applicants who not only have a Masters, but have also worked in that particular sport, with the development team of that sport? And more importantly, how long do you think it will take to accumulate those successes, given that of all the factors that contribute to the success of an elite athlete, you only guide (with moderate control) one small contributory component (I wrote a bit on this in my blog titled, "Gymnastics makes you short")
I noticed at the end of your post, you mentioned that you implied that you're trying to do all of this, "... without a Masters or science degree." If you're missing the science degree (say, your degree is in English), I hesitate to say it's impossible, but I will say that your competition is REALLY stiff and that it's highly improbable that access to an elite athletic population (other than possibly training single athletes occasionally, and only if you're REALLY good and meet all the right people, as opposed to being a _team_'s S&C coach) is likely to happen.
I think my jaded reality of the situation is that you're looking ahead to an application to a job. And sussing out your competition should be a big part of developing your strategy to clinching that contract. It's all fine and dandy to be the idealist and say that if only you work hard enough and are good enough and produce enough results with enough people that you WILL eventually hit that dream (and I would never discourage you from dreaming and going for your dreams), but your competition is also dreaming; and the reality is that your competition does have a Masters, and works hard, and also gets results AND literally lives in an environment where access to the latest and greatest is somewhat of a baseline state.
I know I'm painting a bleak picture here, but I've been through stupidly competitive application processes (several, actually), and although none of them have been S&C ones, it doesn't change the overall approach. Is your dream, the impossible dream? Absolutely not. But you have a harder battle ahead of you than most, and you are going to have to figure out how you're going to match them in the application arena.
So, in terms of concrete strategies, and this is just me:
1) Narrow down your sports. You cannot be everything to everyone. Getting that S&C spot requires knowing not only the strength and conditioning requirements of the athete's sport, but also the overall training and competition infrastructure of that sport (e.g. how much do they train at the various levels of the sports, what is the process by which athletes are selected, how is S&C integrated at the elite level into the sport, etc.)
2) If you are lacking in an exercise physiology background, then you are going to have to go back and do SOME course work. If you don't have a science degree at all in a bio-related field, you will need to upgrade to establish that baseline foundation of knowledge. This may also be an "in" for you to get to know some of the people at the higher level (here in Calgary, some of the profs are highly involved in developing the overall training strategy for the national teams. There are training studies going on here that won't be published until after the Beijing Olympics, and maybe not ever). A CSCS isn't going to cut it.
3) Consider going to some conferences where the bigwigs are going to be hanging out. Not only is it a networking opportunity, but you will have the chance to see some of the latest research and advances (except for the top secret Olympic stuff) and expose yourself to the kind of environment that most graduate students don't just visit, but live in. ACSM is a one of the biggest, but it's also one the easiest to get lost in.
I think I'll stop there. Sorry it's not all rose-coloured news.
Thanks for the great post. There is lots there to think about.
I do not plan on going back to university, a BS then a MA is not for me at this point in my life.Arethere any other obtions that will give me the science background that teams are looking for?
There are lots of good post on starting your own business, I may have to do that and hire people with masters.
Just wanted to say this is a fantastic thread and has provided some great insight for me into my future options. Thanks to bryan and everyone who has posted in this thread.
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