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1. What is exactly meant by this term? At what point does the quest for lean become "sick"?
2. I know that the science of fat loss is the same for those with higher lbs to lose than those with less than 5lbs but I believe the art is different. Can we articulate on this a little?
I can give my observations on this so far and would love to hear comments. I noticed that at about 15% bf (per my Ormon) that the game of fat loss changed for me. Ironically this came to me at about the weight I was in high school (near 120 lbs). I believe this to be my body's "natural" weight if such a thing exists.
The difference was that I could no longer maintain the same level of deficit and have quality of life. So I increased my calories and lowered my activity and now am seeing a net weight gain while bf is dropping. This thrills me as I don't want to lose weight any more just drop about 4lbs of fat. Is it possible to continue on this trend or will I have to drop weight to drop the bf%? I don't know. This is my first go at this. Just noting that there is a difference to the art of loss when dropping the last lbs as opposed to the first ones.
The thing is that I don't see this being talked about much on these boards. It seems that all the posts and information is geared toweards people with more weight to lose. When I posted earlier about getting down to a very low bf% and carb cycling the thread got more into what is 10% versus how one handles getting that final 5lbs of bf% to move versus losing LBM. I am hoping we can perhaps discuss this on here without getting into the whole topic of am I at 14% or 10% or 20% bf which is mutiple threads in themselves I am finding out that carb cycling is actually somewhat needed at these lower levels and that I require more fat in my diet in general. The point is that the way I am handling this for success had to change from before.
I believe that the term "sick" lean is slang...like your shirt is "fat" (phat is probably the spelling) which means that your shirt is really cool.
So, in translation I would interpret "sick lean" to be really hard to get there, an EXTREME lean body composition.
I would also like to say that this is coming from a 30 year old women with two children and very little (if any) exposure to today's slang. But that's what I understand when I read "sick lean".
My target is then in the ript (ripped) or high shredded range not the sick range.
So now that I have these figures and I know I am talking "apples" my questions are for anyone then who is in the "cut" range and losing. Is the science different for these people than for people with higher bf%? I think it is based on my experience but that might be because I am learning as I go along. It seems to me that it is trickier to manage the loss and feelings of weakness than when I was above 18% bf. If it is trickier, then do books and other fat loss information specifically adress this or is it all treated realitively the same as general fat loss?
I can't answer to the science, but from observation: my dh is very lean. The one time his body fat was tested by calipers (in a college class) the results were 7%. I wouldn't be surprised if this is accurate. He has no interest in losing, but we've both noticed he does not tolerate hunger well. At all. He gets cranky, tired, irritable, and pretty much ready to kill something and eat it raw if he's inadvertently hungry. Sounds similar to your experience.
Ok, well it looks like I am not either of those and I dont handle hunger too well either, my target is "cut"(about 17-18%). I am currently over 20% bodyfat right now, but not more than 25%. What is that considered? Average?
Sorry I know you didnt want to get into this topic.
But to sorta stay on topic, I think there are some genetic things going on with some people like leptin regulation. Also, the setpoint theory. In general, if you were very overweight at one point, Ive read that your fat cells multiply, hence your setpoint increases. Which when trying to get to lower bodyfat levels, these type of people, I believe, are the ones who run into trouble. Its the naturally lean person who tends to "forget" to eat, is able to regulate their appetite and stay lean.
But I have also experienced really lean people who also dont tolerate hunger well either. Anyway, I do think there is something going on physiologically.
Ok, well it looks like I am not either of those and I dont handle hunger too well either, my target is "cut"(about 17-18%). I am currently over 20% bodyfat right now, but not more than 25%. What is that considered? Average?
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But I have also experienced really lean people who also dont tolerate hunger well either. Anyway, I do think there is something going on physiologically.
Okay if you are over 25% bf then you and I are not talking "apples". This is good information for me because in other threads when you mention you have just 10lbs to made the assumption that you had less bf%.
It sounds to me like there exists people with higher bf% who simply cannot tolerate deficits. That may be physiological or psychological. I think that these people are exceptions though rather than rule. Mostly people with higher bf% can drop lbs in a pretty efficient manner compared to those with lower. So lets take a sample of ONE person in this discussion instead of trying to talk about how everyone might feel.
This ONE person at >20% bf has a nice even loss of 1lb a week following the simple science of weight loss. (cals in versus cals out) She does this for 15 consecutive weeks until she reaches a wall. She can no longer easily drop the 1lb a week. It now hurts more to lose and she is weaker. Let's say also that now she is in the Ript or Shredded part of bf% range. Did she reach that wall because she is in new zone for bf% or was it hit because the metablism simply adjusted to the dieting?
Basic question. Is it different to lose when in the Ripped or shredded or cut range?
If everyone can agree then I would like to deep dive on this more and get into specifics.
From an evolutionary perspective, the body probably fights to hang on to fat at much lower levels than higher levels. If you're obese, the body had a lot of storage to get through famine--losing some is no big deal. If you're not storing much, it's harder to let go. An analogy would be that it's a lot easier to spend $200 on groceries when you have $2000 in your checking account than when you have $300 in your checking account.
Okay still 20-25% is more than I assumed before so it isn't "apples". I am talking about 17% and under for woman.
I don't know of any evidence that every single person has the same experience at the same body fat level. I doubt there's anything magical about <18%--it just happens to be where your body would like to settle. Another woman may tend to settle at 22%. So there's no reason that you and Workoutgirl aren't experiencing the same thing.
I'd be interested in delving further into "sick" lean...I learned alot in getting to 14% in my 12 week challenge, like that it was way harder to LOSE than to maintain, buuuuuut unfortunately that may be due to my new PCOS medication (started at the very end of the challenge)...It was VERY difficult for me to get from 20% to 14%, and it seemed like a fight from day 1! I so expected a couple of "easy" lbs off first, and i only lost 2 lbs in the first 4 weeks!!
What worked for me was cycling carbs (H,M, and L days - H and L is probably enough, though), a few key supps (which I'd like to learn more about, supps-wise, what has worked for others), and steady state cardio on top of HIIT (with 3 days of lifting a week, full body). It's the diet, primarily, though - lean meats, SMALL amt of lowfat dairy (FF cottage cheese and LF string cheese only), few select fruits on higher carb days (strawberries, apples or blueberries only), and veggies on top of veggies...Grain carbs were oats and fiber one and ezekiel bread only, and only on high carb days in a very limited fashion.
No cheat meals (although I can't say I never cheated - I just never had a MEAL that was bad, just bites on rare occasions), no alcohol. Very few people want to sacrifice that much, and for me it was a limited time deal for a contest (although I don't drink for the most part now anyway). Very few people are willing to do 2 hours of cardio a day if that is what it takes to get "sick lean". I couldn't maintain that, but I did it for 4 weeks because that is what it took. Even so, my 14% didn't look like yours would look, and most people at 14% look (in my mind) better than I did at 14%...But, it gives me something to shoot for - build some more ab structure, ready for the next time I cut down...
There's definitely a science to it, figure competitors do it all the time. I have a nutritionist/coach who I would recommend if you are interested in going to that level. It's a good investment in learning what it takes and those are skills you can take with you after you are done working with him...I think there is a reason most women who train for figure have a diet coach - it's tough and it's hard to do on your own.
I am motivated to stay lean/ripped, but hope there will be occasion that I'll kick in the overdrive to take it to the next level for a vacation or whatnot! Just to keep it within striking distance!
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My target is then in the ript (ripped) or high shredded range not the sick range.
So now that I have these figures and I know I am talking "apples" my questions are for anyone then who is in the "cut" range and losing. Is the science different for these people than for people with higher bf%? I think it is based on my experience but that might be because I am learning as I go along. It seems to me that it is trickier to manage the loss and feelings of weakness than when I was above 18% bf. If it is trickier, then do books and other fat loss information specifically adress this or is it all treated realitively the same as general fat loss?
Sure, several of Lyle McDonald's books address it, for example.
Most people who need a cyclical diet or some other advanced approach are going to be lean already by most people's standards. Let's say having appreciable abdominal definition already.
* Women don't always respond well to severe dietary deficits, at least not for very long. Likely some hormonal voodoo going on there.
* Women do respond well to milder dietary deficits + more training
* They also respond well to frequent refeeding
With that in mind, a simple plan might be to break things into two kinds of phases.
First phase would be massive deficit + moderate activity (weights + LI cardio) + regular refeeds. Use this for maybe 2-4 weeks.
Second phase would be more moderate calories + more carbs + heavier training (focus more on strength/size + harder cardio). This could last longer, and would tend to reset the metabolic voodoo.
It's what I've been doing w/ the wife for her show, and a few of us on BR have been toying w/ the approach in general to good results.
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What worked for me was cycling carbs (H,M, and L days - H and L is probably enough, though), a few key supps (which I'd like to learn more about, supps-wise, what has worked for others), and steady state cardio on top of HIIT (with 3 days of lifting a week, full body). It's the diet, primarily, though - lean meats, SMALL amt of lowfat dairy (FF cottage cheese and LF string cheese only), few select fruits on higher carb days (strawberries, apples or blueberries only), and veggies on top of veggies...Grain carbs were oats and fiber one and ezekiel bread only, and only on high carb days in a very limited fashion.
This is exactly how I eat, except I do eat bananas in my PWO shake.
The only difference........I am still binge eating. Probably what is hurting me the most.
Eating uncontrollably a large amount of calories in one sitting. For example, 3 bananas in a row. Sometimes its different foods, such as a bowl of cereal, a few slices of bread, 3 apples. Just uncontrollable eating which leads to alot of calories in my system at once.
Typically it leaves me feeling very warm, sweaty, and depressed, bloated, and distressed. Not a good feeling,.
Eating uncontrollably a large amount of calories in one sitting. For example, 3 bananas in a row. Sometimes its different foods, such as a bowl of cereal, a few slices of bread, 3 apples. Just uncontrollable eating which leads to alot of calories in my system at once.
Typically it leaves me feeling very warm, sweaty, and depressed, bloated, and distressed. Not a good feeling,.
That is exactly how I feel after a binge...I get very hot and sweaty. And mentally depressed and guilty.
My binges often involve treats but I have also binged on healthy, clean food like cottage cheese, yogurt, and/or cereal, etc. trust me you don't want to binge on fiber cereal LOL not pretty
* Women don't always respond well to severe dietary deficits, at least not for very long. Likely some hormonal voodoo going on there.
* Women do respond well to milder dietary deficits + more training
* They also respond well to frequent refeeding
With that in mind, a simple plan might be to break things into two kinds of phases.
First phase would be massive deficit + moderate activity (weights + LI cardio) + regular refeeds. Use this for maybe 2-4 weeks.
Second phase would be more moderate calories + more carbs + heavier training (focus more on strength/size + harder cardio). This could last longer, and would tend to reset the metabolic voodoo.
It's what I've been doing w/ the wife for her show, and a few of us on BR have been toying w/ the approach in general to good results.
Hey PDML. Thanks for this hint! It really was very easy to drop weight when I started my cut. Calories in versus calories out, right? Unfortunately I was not very happy when I did it that way, with the ratio of bf to weight lost. So when the lbs just stopped dropping with the simple formula I decided to change tactics a bit and rest more and eat more. (It took a lot of faith) This has been going on for 3 weeks now and the bf is dropping pretty consistantly. Still it is scary a bit to keep eating.
I think next time I do a cut, I will use the tactics that I am employing now (such as this eat more/rest more thing and the suggestion you are presenting) as I am actually gaining weight and losing bf% right now.
PMDL - do you use those numbers for women too? What about high body fat vs. low body fat? Because if I use a calc'd BMR and a 1.3 multiplier I'm sitting at 10 cals/lb body weight (more or less) right there. (sorry about the OT inference of higher body fat)
Hey PDML. Thanks for this hint! It really was very easy to drop weight when I started my cut. Calories in versus calories out, right? Unfortunately I was not very happy when I did it that way, with the ratio of bf to weight lost. So when the lbs just stopped dropping with the simple formula I decided to change tactics a bit and rest more and eat more. (It took a lot of faith) This has been going on for 3 weeks now and the bf is dropping pretty consistantly. Still it is scary a bit to keep eating.
I think next time I do a cut, I will use the tactics that I am employing now (such as this eat more/rest more thing and the suggestion you are presenting) as I am actually gaining weight and losing bf% right now.
Didn't you write in an earlier post that you had upped your cardio and that was what was giving you the loss of bodyfat? What do you mean by resting more i.e. are you doing any workouts?
PMDL - do you use those numbers for women too? What about high body fat vs. low body fat? Because if I use a calc'd BMR and a 1.3 multiplier I'm sitting at 10 cals/lb body weight (more or less) right there. (sorry about the OT inference of higher body fat)
*shrug* It's a general guideline. No formula is ever accurate, so I just default to the simplest estimate until some data on individual responses is gathered. For most people, barring extremes of activity one way or another, BMR will more or less equal 10 cals/lb.
I threw those rules-of-thumb out because I was asked; I don't consider them to be unbreakable rules.
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Didn't you write in an earlier post that you had upped your cardio and that was what was giving you the loss of bodyfat? What do you mean by resting more i.e. are you doing any workouts?
No upping my cardio (I started riding 26 miles one way to work 1-2 days a week) did not help me at all. The first week it did help me but after that I actually stalled in bf loss. In fact I gained weight and bf. It was only for a week so it could've been a natural setpoint as well. I don't know really.
That said it seemed to make sense that the increase in cardio was working against me as I was feeling fairly tired all the time and hungry too. So I backed off this week and raised my fat intake. I saw a 1% decrease in bf today from last week's stall. While I know the Ormon might be off a little but it has been trending downwards from this number so I think it is fairly accurate. It seems to have worked great for me to sit back, rest up and eat more fat. It was a very nice week actually and my whole focus was on getting REST days in and eating well.
The old me would have done a boatload more cardio and dropped fat cals if the scale stalled for a week or more. I am so thankful to have this board and the great wealth of knowledge on it to help me on this journey.
No upping my cardio (I started riding 26 miles one way to work 1-2 days a week) did not help me at all. The first week it did help me but after that I actually stalled in bf loss. In fact I gained weight and bf. It was only for a week so it could've been a natural setpoint as well. I don't know really.
That said it seemed to make sense that the increase in cardio was working against me as I was feeling fairly tired all the time and hungry too. So I backed off this week and raised my fat intake. I saw a 1% decrease in bf today from last week's stall. While I know the Ormon might be off a little but it has been trending downwards from this number so I think it is fairly accurate. It seems to have worked great for me to sit back, rest up and eat more fat. It was a very nice week actually and my whole focus was on getting REST days in and eating well.
The old me would have done a boatload more cardio and dropped fat cals if the scale stalled for a week or more. I am so thankful to have this board and the great wealth of knowledge on it to help me on this journey.
Interesting! Glad you found what is working for you. I am resting now since I am doing metarepair and really see how important rest is!
Let's talk sick lean
I am finding out that carb cycling is actually somewhat needed at these lower levels and that I require more fat in my diet in general. The point is that the way I am handling this for success had to change from before.
But that's what I understand when I read "sick lean".
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