The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
Bottom Line Facts for Fat Loss-does anyone really know??
I have struggled and struggled and struggled for two years. I have been overweight nearly my entire life (I don't know what it's like to be at a healthy weight). I finally decided on weight loss surgery, weighing in at 306 pounds. I took a class for six months required by my health insurance to qualify, and lost 30 pounds during that time. I was at 274 at the time of surgery. After surgery (February 08), I've lost only 30 pounds. Three months after surgery I came to a dead halt in my loss, and have been there ever since.
I have been to see my surgeon more times than I can count, two endos, two registered dietitians/nutritionists, and four general practitioners. I am beating myself up in exercise. I am currently running (non-stop) for 30 minutes 3x a week or doing 30 minutes of step aerobics, and the other 3x a week I am doing resistance training for 40-50 minutes. Oh, and I’m doing all of this while still weighing 240 pounds. I take one day of rest, Sundays.
For the first year after surgery, I was eating 600-1000 calories a day, even though I quit losing after the first three months. My carbs were severely limited. No one explained to me about carbs and how they cause you to gain water weight when they've been restricted. I was becoming SO frustrated at how my weight fluctuated until I started doing reading on my own and learned that when you restrict carbs and then try to eat them -- even the good ones -- you gain water weight.
I went on Atkins this past spring, and after two days felt so sick I had to quit.When I went to see one of my endos at the end of July he told me to limit my carbs (again). So I did. I did this for a month at 1200 calories and lost only water. My inches never changed during that time, even under the level of exercise I'm doing right now. Every time I go to a doctor, they want me to lower my calories but it never helps.
Almost two weeks ago, I decided I’d had absolutely ENOUGH of not eating any carbs. It was hard enough how hard I’m exercising! By not ever having any carbs -- I felt like my eating & exercise were taking over my entire life!! There IS life outside of food and exercise.
By the way -- I’ve had EVERY blood test known to man. My thyroid is fine, everything is fine. My blood pressure is stellar (102/80 the last time I went). I have read so much in the last two years, and ordered so many tests, that one of my endos looked at my file and complimented the other, saying, "Whoever ordered all these tests is an EXCELLENT endocrinologist." I looked him in the eye and said, "He didn't order those tests. I ordered those tests. If no one else cares about what's going on with me, I'M going to figure out what's going on with me." One point for Sheryl. He actually thought it was another doctor who was looking for answers. Apparently I was digging in the right place, and I have NO medical training.
So the issue is somewhere in my food? Limiting my carbs doesn’t help me at ALL. If it did, I would have been losing weight, inches, or both.
For just a little over a week now I’ve hiked my calories back up to 1800. And it’s hard with a small stomach, I tell you. I overate a week ago, trying to get myself up to 1800 calories to get the thermal effect of “real food”, and I really paid for it. I ended up spitting up part of it to get relief (I can't really "vomit" anymore, since my stomach isn't in use, so it's more like spitting up). Now I’m realizing I’ve got one of two choices -- get the extra calories from either more carbs and/or protein drinks. That’s the ONLY way to get in 1800 calories or more.
Of course, once I started eating carbs again, I gained about 4 pounds in a week, but I was okay with that. The interesting thing is though that I’ve gained no fat (inches), so I know it was water. I went from about 236.7 to 241.5. It then dropped to 240.4 and that’s where I’ve been for the last three days. I have to say that I’m relieved to see the scale staying the same regardless of the carb level; it was the crazy huge fluctuations I just couldn’t take & was playing havoc on my emotions!!
I have never worked so hard on my weight in my entire life. You don't let someone cut you open unless you're desperate. I want so badly to get to my goal; that's why I did this! But something in my body isn't responding. I have used so many calorie calculators that I really don't know what to believe. At 240 pounds, I can't lose on 1200 calories, or even 1500.
I'm not sure what the problem is. I have begun to suspect that I lost a LOT of muscle in that first three months, then started doing 5 days/week of cardio, and maybe lost even more muscle, because I was only eating 600-900 calories a day. But I was only doing what the doctors ordered!
I went to a doctor where I left her office in tears. When I told her I was eating 1500 calories, she told me it was too much, to go down to 1200. When she asked me how much I was exercising, I told her I was running 30 minutes/day 5x a week. She said, "That's not enough. You have to do it EVERY day for at LEAST 1 hour a day." I'm looking at her like she's crazy. I weigh 240 pounds after all, and it's a HUGE feat for someone my size to be able to run 30 minutes non-stop. I know people who weigh 75 lbs less than I do who can't do that!
That's when I realized that it wasn't that I was doing anything wrong. The fact was, she didn't know what to tell me but she wasn't going to admit it. If I'd said I was exercising an hour a day, she would have said I wasn't losing because I wasn't exercising an hour and a HALF every day. As far as she was concerned, no matter what I said, it wasn't going to be enough.
I haven't been on the 1800 calories+ for very long, but noticed that I'm not gaining fat. But I can’t possibly maintain at BOTH 1200 and 1800 calories, can I?? When I was at 1200 calories and exercising this way, I didn’t lose either. When I started 1800 and continued with my current exercise, I gained, but only water weight from the carbs (and I know that’s what it was, because I gained that all within 5 days; you don’t regain fat at that rate).
I don’t have enough stomach room to get even 1800 calories in with solid food, so I have no choice but to either use carbs and/or protein drinks to raise my calories. The protein is way too heavy and filling for me to get in most of that in solid food. I'll get full & sick in a hurry. And even the healthy carbs take up too much room. For instance, an apple is so filling and has so much fiber, which is excellent for my health, but for all that filling, only gives me about 80 calories, which is the very opposite of what I’m trying to do, if I'm trying to get my body to quit holding on to fat.
We were also taught to get in 80-100 grams of protein every day -- but I wonder if that's not enough, especially if I've lost muscle -- and that's why I'm not losing? I started early last week getting it up to the 200-range, but then I went out of town for three days, and it was impossible to keep up with my protein during that time while you're in a hotel with limited storage capabilities and a limited budget. So now I'm back on the horse.
I just don't know what to think anymore. I have read that once your metabolism has been lowered by eating a VLCD (very low calorie diet), that you end up in a trap -- having to eat less to lose. And I just cannot eat 500 calories a day! That's crazy!!
I have also read that if you've lost muscle while on the VLCD, the only way to raise your metabolism is to do resistance training to raise it again. But then resistance training by itself offers very few calories burned, so you have to add cardio. But then I ALSO read that you should have one goal -- either fat loss or building muscle, and that you can't do both at the same time. Does ANYBODY really know what they're talking about?!
I have to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight (which has always made sense and always worked until now), but then because I can't lose at 1200 and I can't lose at 1500 -- where's my deficit?? I don't know where to eat to HAVE a deficit. I thought 1200-1500 WAS a deficit! Was that deficit too much for my activity level and current weight?
Could it be that the deficit was fine, but that I was getting in too little protein? Could it be that eating 1500-1800 calories might work if I doubled my protein in the 200+ range?? And if so, why is it necessary for it to be so high?
I know I'm all over the map here, but maybe someone can make some sense of my thoughts. I have been consistently exercising, banging my head against a wall, and have nothing to show for it. I have read about measuring food. I am journaling on FitDay, but I just can't make myself weigh my food.
You have to understand . . . I've been at this for two years. I journal all day long to keep track of protein, calories, snacks. I make sure I exercise every day. I weigh. I take my measurements. At a certain point it's like brain burnout on all the details of this. It's revolting to think about doing MORE.
I've lost weight before, and it was NOT like this. It's just not supposed to be this hard or this complicated. I could see it being hard if I was already near my goal weight, but it shouldn't be like this when I've got least 60-70 pounds to go and plenty of fat to lose.
Hi Sheryl, that sounds like it sucks. Have you read Leigh's book?
My original weight was ~235 and I'm not going to claim to understand what you are going through and your special circumstances, however here is the stuff that was eye opening for me.
Daily Activity! One of the things Leigh talks about is how you will naturally slow down when your body is beat up from diet and exercise. Or you may just have a sedentary lifestyle (not an accusation, most of us do).
Based on 'standard' calculations I thought my daily burn was 2100-2300 (BMR * 1.35) so I would eat from 1500-1800 with some weekend indiscretions. I couldn't figure out how that was enough to erase a 300-500 cal deficit 'most days'. The math didn't add up. My weight was stable (not going up) but it was frustrating!!! I got an actitrainer (similar idea to bodybugg or gowear fit) and found that on a regular workday with no workouts I burned ONLY 1800-1850 calories! Wow a big eye opener. On weekends when I would 'rest' from my 'exhausting' week some days it was 1700, not kidding.
So the _first_ thing is to figure out your real burn. I would suggest buying a GoWear Fit (I don't recommend actitrainer and GWF is cheaper than bodybugg). I bet it will revolutionize your weight loss. Knowing your actual burn is the single most important thing. Otherwise you are just guessing, assuming and getting frustrated.
Secondly, calculate your deficit based on that -- -30% is probably good, or you can try a program like OPT. What I did was aim for a 2000 cal burn from extra cleaning, short walks etc and then calculated my OPT deficits based on 2000. I wear the tracker all day every day pretty much and really work on beating 2000. On workout days it's usually easy.
Thirdly, weigh *everything* to make sure the calories you think you are eating are what you are eating. Include calories from supplements (fish oil has calories!), gum, splenda (4 cal/g), cooking spray -- EVERYTHING. Measuring cups are not good enough. If you read through the forums you can find Leigh's videos on this.
Finally remember that your total calorie expenditure is more important than intensity. New studies suggest EPOC is overrated. If I were you I'd give up running completely and sub walking but for a longer time. When I exercise intensely a lot of times I can't sleep, then I am really tired and hungry and it's harder to comply with my calorie goals. If you are less tired and sore everything else will go smoother (calorie compliance, especially). Also consider that running at that weight will have a long term detrimental impact on your knees, mine are a mess now from training for a few 5Ks while quite heavy.
Weighing food really isn't all that hard, particularly if you're already using measuring cups. Get a scale with a tare feature and it's actually easier since you don't have to get, say, a liquid c measuring cup for your milk, then a 1 c measuring cup for your strawberries and/or cereal, then a tablespoon for peanut butter, etc. You get your bowl, hit tare, pour in cereal, note grams, hit tare, put in strawberries, tare, add milk, tare, add pb, tare, etc., and you only have one dish to clean.
It seems like you might be in a similar place regarding difficulty losing but normal thyroid levels.
One other thing is that if you don't have a blender, you should consider getting one. There was a Fit Cast podcast a while back where a listener had a question about what to do during recovery for jaw surgery, when he'd be on a liquid-only diet. Jen Heath said basically to get a blender and blend everything, including thinks like chicken. It sounds gross, but that may be a way for you to get more protein in.
Good luck! I can definitely hear your frustration coming through, and I sympathize with your difficulties.
__________________
They call me Amanda, that being my real name, and "They" being people who know me in person as I don't go around introducing myself in real life as "scribess." 'Cause that would just be strange.
Hi Sheryl,
Your story sounds very familiar, and I see many obese clients in the gym struggling with the same thing you say. You may also notice that on some shows on TV, the man who is 500lbs, get surgery, and drops 200lbs, which is tremendous progress BTW, but for some reason, the weight loss stalls.
The only thing I can tell you, and this is what strikes me. I am in school to become a dietician myself, and I read something very interesting in one of my classes.
You are born with a certain number of fat cells. The number stays constant, but there are times the number can increase, and this is during puberty and pregnancy. However, becoming obsese also causes the fat cells to increase in number. What happens is, your fat cells have a certain capacity and storage space. Once they get very large, they run out of space, so the split, hence each fat cell becomes two fat cells. This means that you end up with more fat cells. THis is what, i believe, makes it very hard for some people to get back to the weight they were before they gained all the weight. This is due to more fat cells.
Your setpoint is now different than it was before.
I dont really know what the solution is short of something more drastic like lipo, which I dont think is a very good option.
But there have been some very successful stories of people who have lost lots of weight, so I know there is hope. Short of the advice you got in the previous post (weigh and measure, and all the typical stuff), Id suggest you throw a question out to Lyle Mcdonald on bodyrecomposition.com. Id also suggest you read all his work. He discusses stuff about leptin,fat loss, weight gain,etc....and he may have some good advice.
Hang in there girl! And be proud of the progress you have already made, and be pround that you are strong, fit and healthy.
I assume wtih all the lab tests you had they checked for nutritional deficiencies which are very common after bariatric surgery? Is there a possibility that the surgery was not done correctly? I have no clue about these procedures but just wonder if maybe there is an issue with the surgery itself? Have you seen another bariatric surgeon for a second opinion?
I assume wtih all the lab tests you had they checked for nutritional deficiencies which are very common after bariatric surgery? Is there a possibility that the surgery was not done correctly? I have no clue about these procedures but just wonder if maybe there is an issue with the surgery itself? Have you seen another bariatric surgeon for a second opinion?
The only deficiency I've had is Vitamin D, and it's been hard to keep up because I'm not an outdoors person. He's been giving me 50,000 IU prescriptions for it. I already asked my surgeon if that's the reason I'm not losing weight -- he said it has nothing to do with it. All my other vitamins, etc., are fine.
They've been assuming that the surgery caused the low Vit D -- and it may have -- but the reality is that it could have actually existed before surgery, because I have all the risk factors -- I'm a transcriptionist, which means I'm indoors much of the time, I've NEVER been much of an outdoors person (ever in my life), and I'm African-American. African-Americans are notorious for having low Vit D because . . . well, we don't need a tan. So it COULD have existed before surgery, but we'll never know because it wasn't tested beforehand.
I have discussed the possibility of an error in surgical procedure with my endo, and I've already had a barium swallow done -- a special Xray where you drink chalky stuff and they xray you as it goes through your system. I drove 45 minutes to have that test done. They didn't observe any abnormalities. HOWEVER, my endo was supposed to have ordered an endoscopy, which he hasn't yet. That's the actual 3D procedure where they go in with a camera and have a close-up look. That procedure would actually be THE final word on the structure of my surgery and insides.
I'll reply to the other replies a little later -- thank you ALL for your responses!! I'm looking forward to the conversation.
As someone who has lost a fair amount of weight, with still a lot to go, the most obvious thing I can think of it that your daily activity level might be lower than you think. Although a GoWearFit can be a great tool, another good cheaper tool might be a pedometer. I've been using one lately (only because I found it again), and can see daily step counts from a low of ~2600 to a high of over 20000. How much you move around on a daily basis can contribute more to calorie burn than those 30 minutes in the gym.
I realise that in the past I would do cardio like a fiend in the mornings (5 days a week) and eat very little and couldn't understand why I wasn't losing weight. I even had a job where I was on my feet a lot as well. Of course, when I came home at night I didn't move... not at all (or as little as possible). Now I tend to be almost the opposite, up and down the stairs, back and forth between rooms, etc.
Oh, and I'm down to ~230 (from a high of over 400 pounds) and I don't run at all. From time to time I do jog/run intervals, but seriously, watch out for your knees. I walk, keep my general activity level up, and lift weights. Running will come later for me I think.
I don't think I can offer any specific thoughts on your diet, as I really don't know anything about the special requirements of someone who has been through WLS. I am sorry that it didn't turn out to be what you needed for your weight loss.
As someone who has lost a fair amount of weight, with still a lot to go, the most obvious thing I can think of it that your daily activity level might be lower than you think. Although a GoWearFit can be a great tool, another good cheaper tool might be a pedometer. I've been using one lately (only because I found it again), and can see daily step counts from a low of ~2600 to a high of over 20000. How much you move around on a daily basis can contribute more to calorie burn than those 30 minutes in the gym.
I realise that in the past I would do cardio like a fiend in the mornings (5 days a week) and eat very little and couldn't understand why I wasn't losing weight. I even had a job where I was on my feet a lot as well. Of course, when I came home at night I didn't move... not at all (or as little as possible). Now I tend to be almost the opposite, up and down the stairs, back and forth between rooms, etc.
Oh, and I'm down to ~230 (from a high of over 400 pounds) and I don't run at all. From time to time I do jog/run intervals, but seriously, watch out for your knees. I walk, keep my general activity level up, and lift weights. Running will come later for me I think.
I don't think I can offer any specific thoughts on your diet, as I really don't know anything about the special requirements of someone who has been through WLS. I am sorry that it didn't turn out to be what you needed for your weight loss.
I'd love to have a GoWear Fit -- I checked on eBay, but wow, they're expensive. Wish I could afford it right now, but maybe it'll go on my Christmas list . . .
I do have a pedometer -- two, in fact. One I quit wearing because it's WAY too sensitive. I could just stand up and it would say I'm taking 10 steps. The other I reset a few weeks ago, but got discouraged about it when another fitness "expert" (there's a lot of those) said to quit relying on technology, because none of it's accurate. Good grief. For everything someone tells me to do, someone else tells me NOT to do it. See why I'm so confused??
As far as not doing as much as I think . . . I'm doing all I can. I'm a transcriptionist at home -- you can't walk while you do that, and I'm often sitting for 5-6 hours at a time. I get up to get lunch, a snack, laundry, but I try to finish it before my kids get home from school so I can concentrate on them instead of trying to do dinner, homework, laundry AND transcription. By the time I start my transcription in the mornings, I've already had my 30-50 minutes of exercise.
At 240 pounds, I can't do anymore than I'm already doing, unless I start walking an additional 30 minutes on my cardio days on top of my initial 30 minutes of cardio, whether that's running or step aerobics, making cardio days an hour. It still doesn't make sense, though. Even if it IS just 30 minutes of cardio 3x a week along with 3x a week of weights, it just doesn't make sense to not be burning fat for months on end. It's still SOMETHING, and I should still be losing SOMETHING while on 1200 calories. How long are you walking?
At 240 pounds, I can't do anymore than I'm already doing, unless I start walking an additional 30 minutes on my cardio days on top of my initial 30 minutes of cardio, whether that's running or step aerobics, making cardio days an hour. It still doesn't make sense, though. Even if it IS just 30 minutes of cardio 3x a week along with 3x a week of weights, it just doesn't make sense to not be burning fat for months on end. It's still SOMETHING, and I should still be losing SOMETHING while on 1200 calories. How long are you walking?
What I've seen from my GoWearFit is that on days I spend a lot of time at computer and TV, and an hour exercise class, I burn
60 cal / hour: sleep
60 cal / hour: Computer
60 cal / hour: TV
300cal/ hour: Jazzercise.
so there are some days I just don't do too much more than that. So 23 hours x 60 cal/hour is 1380 cal, plus 300 for the Jazzercise hour is 1680 cal burn. Not much energy spent, even with an hour of intense exercise. It's the other 23 hrs that are impt.
It would seem that eating 1200cal would give a 480 deficit, but it doesn't seem to work that way.
I don't have a lot to offer you, because I have normal bloodwork, low D3 and also my body is resistant to losing fat. But I've dropped my calories a lot, I've suspended Jazzercise and resistance training, and I'm walking and still need to increase my walking and NEAT more, hoping that will help.
Other great energy burners are housework, shopping in the mall, dancing, doing errands. I notice that the folk here that are on their feet more than they're sitting burn more over the whole day than I do.
So I've started to get up during each hour that I'm at the computer to move, visit someone, wash some dishes, go up and down the stairs, go for a 10 min walk.
Also, I do suggest weighing your food. Many of us here do it. It becomes easy. I then enter it in fitday. 300cal difference could be important daily.
However, there are a number of us here with similar issues and we don't have concrete solved answers.
By the way, do you measure yourself? I found that I wasn't losing fat, and my pants weren't looser but meanwhile I lost in my ribcage under my bust 5", and that was a surprise, since it wasn't noticible with clothes. Bust, ribcage, waist, stomach, hips, thigh.. Week to week.
I don't think you should focus on more protein, I think you should focus on less calories eaten and more calories burned outside of exercise hour.
If you are doing all you can, if you can't move more during the day, you have to eat way less.
Hi Sheryl, that sounds like it sucks. Have you read Leigh's book?
My original weight was ~235 and I'm not going to claim to understand what you are going through and your special circumstances, however here is the stuff that was eye opening for me.
Daily Activity! One of the things Leigh talks about is how you will naturally slow down when your body is beat up from diet and exercise. Or you may just have a sedentary lifestyle (not an accusation, most of us do).
Based on 'standard' calculations I thought my daily burn was 2100-2300 (BMR * 1.35) so I would eat from 1500-1800 with some weekend indiscretions. I couldn't figure out how that was enough to erase a 300-500 cal deficit 'most days'. The math didn't add up. My weight was stable (not going up) but it was frustrating!!! I got an actitrainer (similar idea to bodybugg or gowear fit) and found that on a regular workday with no workouts I burned ONLY 1800-1850 calories! Wow a big eye opener. On weekends when I would 'rest' from my 'exhausting' week some days it was 1700, not kidding.
So the _first_ thing is to figure out your real burn. I would suggest buying a GoWear Fit (I don't recommend actitrainer and GWF is cheaper than bodybugg). I bet it will revolutionize your weight loss. Knowing your actual burn is the single most important thing. Otherwise you are just guessing, assuming and getting frustrated.
Secondly, calculate your deficit based on that -- -30% is probably good, or you can try a program like OPT. What I did was aim for a 2000 cal burn from extra cleaning, short walks etc and then calculated my OPT deficits based on 2000. I wear the tracker all day every day pretty much and really work on beating 2000. On workout days it's usually easy.
Thirdly, weigh *everything* to make sure the calories you think you are eating are what you are eating. Include calories from supplements (fish oil has calories!), gum, splenda (4 cal/g), cooking spray -- EVERYTHING. Measuring cups are not good enough. If you read through the forums you can find Leigh's videos on this.
Finally remember that your total calorie expenditure is more important than intensity. New studies suggest EPOC is overrated. If I were you I'd give up running completely and sub walking but for a longer time. When I exercise intensely a lot of times I can't sleep, then I am really tired and hungry and it's harder to comply with my calorie goals. If you are less tired and sore everything else will go smoother (calorie compliance, especially). Also consider that running at that weight will have a long term detrimental impact on your knees, mine are a mess now from training for a few 5Ks while quite heavy.
I hope some of those ideas help.
gabi.k
I think I am going to try walking for an hour instead of running for 30 minutes. I really hate that, though. I was really trying to burn more calories, but isn't it that you burn more fat after the first 20 minutes? An hour just seems like an awfully long time to walk . . . I get SO bored just walking, so that's why I was trying to get more bang for my buck by jogging and hopefully using up less calories in more time. Ugh.
I checked out bodyrecomposition.com, as someone else suggested -- too much detail/science for me. At this point I kinda feel like -- okay, less food + more exercise = weight loss. Not rocket science. But that site talks about cortisol when you overdo exercise -- but my cortisol has been checked at least 2-3x and my endo said it's fine.
He also talked about eating low carb/low calories for a few days and then upping them. I just don't have the brain energy for all of that. Honestly. With a 1st grader and a 3rd grader, homework, housework, cooking, my job, my husband and I are involved in full-time ministry at our church, so there's lots of counseling, etc., involved with the couples in our adult class -- there just isn't enough time in the day. I feel like I'm giving my life away to concentrate on what he's asking to do.
It's like what he's saying is that if you're going to eat super low calories, not to do cardio -- http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1970 -- (which is totally against what they told us to do for bariatric surgery patients). All of this makes me so angry, because it shouldn't be this hard!!
Can you post what you are actually eating-foods and amounts? I have a vitamin D deficiency and that can be a part of slow weight loss according to my endo. Also how is your B12 and protein levels? Are you anemic? Are you keeping up with your supplements? What type of WLS did you have?
I think I am going to try walking for an hour instead of running for 30 minutes. I really hate that, though. I was really trying to burn more calories, but isn't it that you burn more fat after the first 20 minutes? An hour just seems like an awfully long time to walk . . . I get SO bored just walking, so that's why I was trying to get more bang for my buck by jogging and hopefully using up less calories in more time. Ugh.
I checked out bodyrecomposition.com, as someone else suggested -- too much detail/science for me. At this point I kinda feel like -- okay, less food + more exercise = weight loss. Not rocket science. But that site talks about cortisol when you overdo exercise -- but my cortisol has been checked at least 2-3x and my endo said it's fine.
He also talked about eating low carb/low calories for a few days and then upping them. I just don't have the brain energy for all of that. Honestly. With a 1st grader and a 3rd grader, homework, housework, cooking, my job, my husband and I are involved in full-time ministry at our church, so there's lots of counseling, etc., involved with the couples in our adult class -- there just isn't enough time in the day. I feel like I'm giving my life away to concentrate on what he's asking to do.
It's like what he's saying is that if you're going to eat super low calories, not to do cardio -- http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1970 -- (which is totally against what they told us to do for bariatric surgery patients). All of this makes me so angry, because it shouldn't be this hard!!
I just started eating 5 days of 900 calories and 2 days of 2000 calories and I have started losing some fat. The past 3 weeks. I eat high protein and some healthy fat on the low calories days (Mon-Fri) and I eat high healthy carb and low fat on the high calorie days (which are fun!).
I was doing high low low high low low low, but that wasnt' working........ we'll see if this continues. It actually takes less time, because I only pack 2 meals instead of 4, I only eat 2-3 meals instead of 4-6 on the low days. They are pretty simple: chicken, avocado, steamed stringbeans. Cottage cheese and cantaloupe. Real simple food. Then the higher cal days you could eat some of what your family eats.
You sound very committed. You sound done being fat. That's how I feel and I'm gonna keep on until it works.
What I've seen from my GoWearFit is that on days I spend a lot of time at computer and TV, and an hour exercise class, I burn
60 cal / hour: sleep
60 cal / hour: Computer
60 cal / hour: TV
300cal/ hour: Jazzercise.
so there are some days I just don't do too much more than that. So 23 hours x 60 cal/hour is 1380 cal, plus 300 for the Jazzercise hour is 1680 cal burn. Not much energy spent, even with an hour of intense exercise. It's the other 23 hrs that are impt.
It would seem that eating 1200cal would give a 480 deficit, but it doesn't seem to work that way.
I don't have a lot to offer you, because I have normal bloodwork, low D3 and also my body is resistant to losing fat. But I've dropped my calories a lot, I've suspended Jazzercise and resistance training, and I'm walking and still need to increase my walking and NEAT more, hoping that will help.
Other great energy burners are housework, shopping in the mall, dancing, doing errands. I notice that the folk here that are on their feet more than they're sitting burn more over the whole day than I do.
So I've started to get up during each hour that I'm at the computer to move, visit someone, wash some dishes, go up and down the stairs, go for a 10 min walk.
Also, I do suggest weighing your food. Many of us here do it. It becomes easy. I then enter it in fitday. 300cal difference could be important daily.
However, there are a number of us here with similar issues and we don't have concrete solved answers.
By the way, do you measure yourself? I found that I wasn't losing fat, and my pants weren't looser but meanwhile I lost in my ribcage under my bust 5", and that was a surprise, since it wasn't noticible with clothes. Bust, ribcage, waist, stomach, hips, thigh.. Week to week.
I don't think you should focus on more protein, I think you should focus on less calories eaten and more calories burned outside of exercise hour.
How old and tall are you?
Have you found that having low calories with longer duration but low intensity walking is working for you? When I had lower calories, my surgeon wanted me to up my time and even the intensity. I'm 37, and I'm 5'6".
I just don't understand -- my lifestyle is no different than it was before surgery. I've had this job for five years, and surgery was only two years ago (well, in February). It's not as if anything has changed, and I was able to lose weight fine before, regardless of my job.
I have measured myself so much in the last year that I know my measurements inside out. I've been looking for progress -- ANY progress. My measurements never change unless my calories go super low, and then I only lose water and never lose fat. I even started measuring in the less noticed places, just to see if I was missing something -- lower arm, etc.
Are you following your supplementation protocol? If you could post what you eat and amounts this really could help give a clearer picture of what may be going on.
I do have a pedometer -- two, in fact. One I quit wearing because it's WAY too sensitive. I could just stand up and it would say I'm taking 10 steps. The other I reset a few weeks ago, but got discouraged about it when another fitness "expert" (there's a lot of those) said to quit relying on technology, because none of it's accurate. Good grief. For everything someone tells me to do, someone else tells me NOT to do it. See why I'm so confused??
The problem is that every one (even here) is going to have a different opinion. I know that my pedometer isn't 100% accurate, however, I do know the difference between a 3000 step day and a 12000 step day - I moved approximately four times as much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherylWilliams
At 240 pounds, I can't do anymore than I'm already doing, unless I start walking an additional 30 minutes on my cardio days on top of my initial 30 minutes of cardio, whether that's running or step aerobics, making cardio days an hour. It still doesn't make sense, though. Even if it IS just 30 minutes of cardio 3x a week along with 3x a week of weights, it just doesn't make sense to not be burning fat for months on end. It's still SOMETHING, and I should still be losing SOMETHING while on 1200 calories. How long are you walking?
Usually at most, an hour, sometimes on the weekends maybe longer, but not always. When you say you do 3x a week weights, what types of training are you doing? ie. light weights/lots of reps or heavier weights/few reps
The problem is you seem to want someone to say 'I know what's wrong' and I'm not sure that anyone here can pinpoint what's wrong. Most people here (myself included) found what works for them. Sadly, that doesn't always work for other people. I hesitate to tell you to do more, because your calories seem awfully low... to me. I know that I couldn't handle 1200 calories a day, however, I see people like Etana eating less and it works for them. I'd probably kill someone if I couldn't eat moderate carbs (especially fruits) yet I know some on here who love low carb and it feels natural to them.
I would make sure that you're tracking everything you eat, mainly to make sure that you know what your intake is. Even just for a couple of weeks to start. When I first started calorie counting I was very slack on my counting as I was losing weight, so who cared? Later I started being more precise and realized that I was eating somewhere around ~200 cals a day more than I thought. It was a couple of packs of crystal light, a few seconds of non-stick spray here and there, and my medium apple was closer to a large one. Little things like that. Not a huge deal, but it might have been somewhere along the way.
Can you post what you are actually eating-foods and amounts? I have a vitamin D deficiency and that can be a part of slow weight loss according to my endo. Also how is your B12 and protein levels? Are you anemic? Are you keeping up with your supplements? What type of WLS did you have?
My surgeon told me flat out that my Vitamin D deficiency had absolutely nothing to do with slow weight loss. Believe me, I've been searching for a reason -- ANY reason -- and I asked the question. I've been on 50,000 IUs (super-mega doses) of Vit D several times in the past two years, and nothing has ever changed during that time. My B12 is over the top, and my protein is normal. I am not anemic. And this is being somewhat unfaithful with my supplements -- all of my blood tests are fine even though I'm not completely consistent with them.
I had the RNY.
As far as what I'm eating, it's changed recently because I upped my calories again to about the 1800 level since neither 1200 or 1500 was working and I wondered if it's because my calories were too low. when I WAS on 600-1000 calories a day, I was exercising 20 minutes a day, and not losing anything either. That's when my surgeon said it wasn't enough, so I started step aerobics 5x a week for 30 minutes. But maybe the issue is that I went from not enough to too much. Maybe I should have just been walking for an hour -- increased the distance but not the intensity.
Keep in mind, I've been trying to get my calories back up since LOW calories hasn't seemed to work.
For today (so far) I've had:
2 scrambled eggs (148/10f/14p)
Body Fortress Protein (200/3f/4carb/52p)
3/4 c whole milk (150/3f/27c/5p)
1 banana (blended in the protein -- 105/.4f/27c/1.2p)
Syntrax Protein (180/0f/0c/46p)
2 dried apricots (I didn't weigh them, and the store I got them from, you scoop them out of a bin, so there's no package).
*2 oz chicken breast (127/5f/0c/19p)
*1/2 cup marinated artichokes (100/6f/8c/0p)
*This is a recipe for artichoke chicken I made last night -- since it's homemade, I have NO idea how many calories are in it)
1 small apple (72/19c/.4p)
1 oz cajun trail mix (150/10f/13c/5p)
I'm at 1232 calories right now, and am absolutely full. I have gotten in 142 grams of protein. I read over and over you're "supposed" to get in .8 to 1g per pound of body weight. I read that on a LOT of fitness and body-building sites.
Check out this site -- this is a lady who had the surgery, and she's now maintaining at 1800 calories a day. She talks about how she started off at 1000 calories a day, and was in starvation mode. http://backacrosstheline.blogspot.com/search?q=stall
I had an RNY in 2000 and lost 127 lbs-that's why I am asking such specific questions. For me having a Vitamin D deficiency did slow my weight loss combined with other health problems. Why whole milk? If I drank this I would get diahrhea from the lactose and fat. Do you have any problem foods? I lost about 5 lbs last month on an average of about 2100 calories but again like realcdn said we are all different. Have you ever found out how much small intestine was actually bypassed? Do you weigh your foods? For example I had a banana in my shake today-standard calories listed are 105 but when weighed the banana had 132 cals. Also your protein powder has a lot of calories in it and if you are not weighing it is easy to go over a few grams and calories add up on higher cal items such as this.
The problem is that every one (even here) is going to have a different opinion. I know that my pedometer isn't 100% accurate, however, I do know the difference between a 3000 step day and a 12000 step day - I moved approximately four times as much.
Usually at most, an hour, sometimes on the weekends maybe longer, but not always. When you say you do 3x a week weights, what types of training are you doing? ie. light weights/lots of reps or heavier weights/few reps
The problem is you seem to want someone to say 'I know what's wrong' and I'm not sure that anyone here can pinpoint what's wrong. Most people here (myself included) found what works for them. Sadly, that doesn't always work for other people. I hesitate to tell you to do more, because your calories seem awfully low... to me. I know that I couldn't handle 1200 calories a day, however, I see people like Etana eating less and it works for them. I'd probably kill someone if I couldn't eat moderate carbs (especially fruits) yet I know some on here who love low carb and it feels natural to them.
I would make sure that you're tracking everything you eat, mainly to make sure that you know what your intake is. Even just for a couple of weeks to start. When I first started calorie counting I was very slack on my counting as I was losing weight, so who cared? Later I started being more precise and realized that I was eating somewhere around ~200 cals a day more than I thought. It was a couple of packs of crystal light, a few seconds of non-stick spray here and there, and my medium apple was closer to a large one. Little things like that. Not a huge deal, but it might have been somewhere along the way.
For the weights, I'm doing medium/heavy weights (anywhere from 5 to 16 lbs in each hand) for arm exercises, and of course lots of compound exercises that use several muscles at the same time. Basically I'm doing Kathy Smith's videos, that has 20 minutes of upper body and 20 minutes of lower body. If the weight seems light to me for the exercise, I use the next heavier weight, but most of the time I'm doing whatever she's doing, and doing it "to fatigue" where I feel the quake and can't do anymore.
The low calories is why I'm trying to up them -- but I'm full at 1200 at this point in the day, and am having to get the rest in with protein and/or carbs. I'm with you on the carb thing -- I'm sick of no carbs!! One of my friends from my class who had surgery a few weeks after me, and is 30 pounds less than I am, is eating 1500 a day. That's what got me to thinking, "I'm weighing 30 pounds more than her & eating LESS than her?" Maybe that's what's wrong.
Well, at least I'm glad to have had support even if no one has an answer! One of the other posters suggested that I go lower with my cals -- but I wont know for SURE which way to go until I actually get a GWF. I'm going to try keeping my calories and protein up the next few weeks and see what happens, since the lower calories hasn't seemed to do anything.
I had an RNY in 2000 and lost 127 lbs-that's why I am asking such specific questions. For me having a Vitamin D deficiency did slow my weight loss combined with other health problems. Why whole milk? If I drank this I would get diahrhea from the lactose and fat. Do you have any problem foods? I lost about 5 lbs last month on an average of about 2100 calories but again like realcdn said we are all different. Have you ever found out how much small intestine was actually bypassed? Do you weigh your foods? For example I had a banana in my shake today-standard calories listed are 105 but when weighed the banana had 132 cals.
I had the whole milk because I'm trying to get my calories back up. If you're averaging 2100 calories a day -- then I've been quite a bit below that, and for quite some time. I dump on very few foods - usually the combination high fat and high sugar does it. I do very little in the way of rice & pasta because it swells in my pouch and causes pain.
Even WITH the whole milk you see I'm still only at 1232 calories for today. My pouch is small -- and it's supposed to be -- but I get so full so easily that the only way to get my calories back up is to have either higher calorie foods through carbs or more protein drinks, because those fit easier. Getting it in with fibrous carbs is painful -- I get VERY few calories and get VERY full, so I can't get my calories up with them.
My surgeon said I was standard -- 110 cm.
I don't weigh my foods -- again, against my surgeon's recommendations since I've been stressing over this. He told me to quit counting carbs, relax, and to just stop eating when I was full. But I've only half-listened to him, and still chart my foods on Fitday.
Have you been tested for insulin resistance? Those fluctuations are probably due to water retention. Most peeps with an RNY have to eat lowfat or diahrhea and/or dumping will occur-that's why I asked if you have any problem foods. My endo also told me not to restrict any food groups just try to eliminate junky overprocessed foods from my diet which I was doing anyway. Did he tell you to slow down on carbs because you might be insulin resistant?
It really sounds like you need to pick up a food scale and start measuring everything-you will be surprised. Check this out.
Lowfat dairy was stressed after my RNY for good protein sources. You might try Greek yogurt (F*a*g*e is a good brand), cottage cheese, lowfat cheese etc for some of your protein sources. Add egg whites to your scrambled eggs to up your protein also. Do you eat small mini meals every 2-3 hours?
Lowfat dairy was stressed after my RNY for good protein sources. You might try Greek yogurt (F*a*g*e is a good brand), cottage cheese, lowfat cheese etc for some of your protein sources. Add egg whites to your scrambled eggs to up your protein also. Do you eat small mini meals every 2-3 hours?
You know -- YOU'RE really the one I need to be talking to, because you're a fellow WLSer!!! Please tell me about where you started from the time of surgery with your weight, what you have been doing for exercise, and what are you doing to get in 2100 calories a day? The more I can learn from someone who's got similar plumbing to mine, the better!
Yeah -- I'm actually already on that forum, too, but most of those people are eating WAAAAAY low in their calories. It's a really good site, but I've always been concerned at the level of calories most of them are eating. When I've already been there and done that, that doesn't really help me at all.
Here's my thought -- okay, so if I eat 800 calories a day, and then stall again . . . where do I go from there? Like 500 calories a day for the rest of my life?? But really, I want to know what YOU'RE doing, because so many people are eating such small amounts of food, which didn't work for me, that I want to talk to someone who's eating higher calories and still losing, because I suspect that's the way I'll need to go, even though it's so hard.
Tell me all about your exercise, how much protein you get in, etc. I hope you don't mind that I pick your brain?
I had a regain back to 214 due to various health problems and meds which left me almost bedridden. I lost down to 185 but had a sudden regain to 200 for no apparent reason-eating and exercise were the same-turns out I have several thyroid nodules and have a surgical consult coming up for a thyroidectomy. IMHO and it's just an opinion-you need to eat real whole foods every 2-3 hrs to retrain your body to eat and function. Don't depend on the protein powders so much. Keep your fats down as they are malabsorbed and too much will simply pass thru your digestive tract. Don't eliminate food groups-carbs are not the enemy. The only exercise I did when losing weight after surgery was walking-that's it just walking.
Yeah -- I'm actually already on that forum, too, but most of those people are eating WAAAAAY low in their calories. It's a really good site, but I've always been concerned at the level of calories most of them are eating. When I've already been there and done that, that doesn't really help me at all.
Here's my thought -- okay, so if I eat 800 calories a day, and then stall again . . . where do I go from there? Like 500 calories a day for the rest of my life?? But really, I want to know what YOU'RE doing, because so many people are eating such small amounts of food, which didn't work for me, that I want to talk to someone who's eating higher calories and still losing, because I suspect that's the way I'll need to go, even though it's so hard.
Tell me all about your exercise, how much protein you get in, etc. I hope you don't mind that I pick your brain?
It seems to me you need to take a full diet break. Eat healthy whole foods every 2-3 hours, no exercise other than walking, weigh and measure all your foods-this will all help you to determine your maintenance calories. Bascially eat more and do non stressful activity such as walking. Then when you determine your true maintenance calories decide where to go from there. But this is just my opinion-you will have to experiment and find out what works for you. Leigh Peele also writes about the diet break-maybe she can chime in and relate any experience she has with clients who have had wls.
Have you been tested for insulin resistance? Those fluctuations are probably due to water retention. Most peeps with an RNY have to eat lowfat or diahrhea and/or dumping will occur-that's why I asked if you have any problem foods. My endo also told me not to restrict any food groups just try to eliminate junky overprocessed foods from my diet which I was doing anyway. Did he tell you to slow down on carbs because you might be insulin resistant?
It really sounds like you need to pick up a food scale and start measuring everything-you will be surprised. Check this out.
Well -- yes & no on the insulin resistance. One of the reasons I qualified for surgery was PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), and one of its markers is insulin resistance. But one of my endos tested me recently and said that if I do have it, it's not acting up right now, because all my hormones are okay.
Now, the insulin test itself is borderline, in my opinion. It's at a 9, when 10 is the breaking point between normal & abnormal. He just said that was "an interesting number," and that was that. He won't treat it unless the test shows it's actually abnormal. Yes, that's one of the reasons they tried to treat me with low carb, but as I said previously, that didn't help either.
My thyroid -- interestingly enough is VERY close to be hyPER than hyPO. The lab range of normal is between .40 and 4.00. The last time it was tested, it was at a .44, when below a .40 is considered hyPER (faster metabolism). Isn't that weird?? You'd think I'd be burning easily with those results. Thyroid tests are always counterintuitive -- the higher number means the lower metabolism, and vice-versa.
I actually do have a digital food scale, but I've been using it as a postal scale (do a lot of eBay). I checked it, and the bottom of the scale says it can be switched between kg or pounds (it's on lbs right now). When people say to measure things in grams, does that mean kilograms? Will what I have work?
Also have a question -- what is the importance of not having processed foods? I'm not arguing; I really do want to know. I see people saying it, but nobody really saying why it's important. And what really constitutes as a processed food? Before my surgery we just counted calories, and I never learned about processed foods, so this is a different concept for me.
Okay, on the walking -- at what intensity are you doing your walking? My endo said to do it at at least 60% of your maximum heart rate.
On the fats -- that means the higher fats I'm eating (as in the whole milk) aren't really counting in my calories because they are malabsorbed, even if I don't dump after them, so I'm not really getting any caloric benefit from it?
Oh goodness, eating is so hard, Lyrica!! Case in point, this morning I had two scrambled eggs right after I worked out this morning. Two hours later it was time for a protein drink, but I felt like I'd just eaten five minutes ago. I was STILL stuffed!! I almost felt like throwing up when I started on my protein drink, and I couldn't finish it. My food felt like it was still in my pouch. I still felt so full, and the thought of trying to eat anymore was downright revolting!
One of the rules of the pouch is to not drink with your meals, but I wonder if that's one rule I need to break in order to not feel so full when it's time to eat 2/3 hours later.
That's why I depend on the protein drinks & carbs to get my calories up. Believe me, it's not because I like the protein drinks! Eating is painful if I stuff myself, and that's what it feels like I'm doing every two hours when I try to eat solid food frequently. It's like I had the surgery so I could feel full sooner and lose weight on less food. But now that my pouch is so small, I feel full too soon and aren't eating at the right levels to lose weight. Should I just ignore the pain and eat anyway? Is that what you did?
I don't know if my pouch is too small, or is it just that I haven't challenged it to fit more food in? My pouch seems to be resistant to stretching; it just gives me serious, unrelenting pain when I try to eat more in actual food!
Give me some examples of whole foods that you eat on a daily basis every 2-3 hours. You said low-fat dairy, right? What about beans? I used to be afraid of them because of the carbs in them (even though they're the good carbs), but not anymore. I'm so sorry I'm picking your brain, but you're seriously the first person I've met who's eating calories in your range and losing, so I want to know all about what you're doing.
It seems to me you need to take a full diet break. Eat healthy whole foods every 2-3 hours, no exercise other than walking, weigh and measure all your foods-this will all help you to determine your maintenance calories. Bascially eat more and do non stressful activity such as walking. Then when you determine your true maintenance calories decide where to go from there. But this is just my opinion-you will have to experiment and find out what works for you. Leigh Peele also writes about the diet break-maybe she can chime in and relate any experience she has with clients who have had wls.
That Freediets article is TOTALLY me. Totally. One of my endos wanted to put me on medication for depression after I cried in his office because of how hard I've pushed myself on this. Of course I would have nothing of it, but I admit I have been quite distressed about it.
For so long I kept telling myself "it" was going to happen eventually, and so I kept going and going and going, pushing myself harder and harder, and simultaneously pushing fear and emotions aside until a point where I had to admit how I've felt about it. I didn't want to fail at this, and it is distressing to feel like you have, even though you know you've done everything in your power to make it work.
Everyone already assumes you're NOT working hard enough, and that that's what the problem is, so all the professionals tell you you need to work harder. Doctors are so used to people saying, "I can't lose weight," so no matter how you say it, it comes out as a cop-out to them, when they really don't know how hard you've been working, and that you literally can't! I guess I've felt like I didn't come all this way for nothing, you know?
LOVED the second post! I have needed to read something like this for quite some time. To read about yourself, and for someone else to acknowledge the strain and stress of dieting is truly an affirmation for me; I'm not crazy for how I've been feeling.
And really -- I guess I'm psychologically (somehow) already kind of on a diet break right now. I started back "dieting" on July 23 after I saw my endo and he put me on the 1200. I started back on 1800 on September 7 -- but I'm still exercising, and that second article says not to increase your exercise. That means I need to cool it a bit. Starting tomorrow I'm going to start the 1-hour walk. Pretty nifty that I'm kind of already in a diet break!
Good luck to you and hang in there. A lot of people here on this board have purchased Leigh Peele's Fat Loss Troubleshoot. The thing I read that is the hardest for most people is the exercise situation-they need to slow down not push harder. This seems more difficult than lowering calories for most. If you can save up for a gowearfit-this has helped myself and many to discover true maintenance calories and true burn from the exercise we are doing.
Bottom Line Facts for Fat Loss-does anyone really know??
Does ANYBODY really know what they're talking about?!
So it COULD have existed before surgery, but we'll never know because it wasn't tested beforehand.
One of my friends from my class who had surgery a few weeks after me, and is 30 pounds less than I am, is eating 1500 a day. That's what got me to thinking, "I'm weighing 30 pounds more than her & eating LESS than her?" Maybe that's what's wrong.
One of the other posters suggested that I go lower with my cals -- but I wont know for SURE which way to go until I actually get a GWF. I'm going to try keeping my calories and protein up the next few weeks and see what happens, since the lower calories hasn't seemed to do anything.
It's a really good site, but I've always been concerned at the level of calories most of them are eating. When I've already been there and done that, that doesn't really help me at all.
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