The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
Leigh, I see the endocrinologist (LaraT's doctor) for first time this Thursday (tomorrow): What should I be asking him? I feel ridiculous going to see him and saying, "I can't lose weight." I fear he'll not believe that I haven't been cheating.
I fear my lab numbers aren't really gonna be hypo numbers, thought my constipation, high cholesterol and terribly slow weight loss for 17 weeks (2-5.5 lbs still) are symptoms... But the lab numbers don't seem that abnormal.
1. THYROID:
High cholesterol is a symptom of hypothyroid, and if you narrow the ranges, I may be borderline on some panels:
fT4 thyroxine free,.. 1.33 ng/dL.. <0.61-1.76>.......... .. mid range fT3 triiodothyronine free serum....2.7 pg/mL.....<2.3-4.2> .....maybe low?
T3 .............................. .134ng/dL.......<85-205>..... ..mid range T4 TBG ....................... 5.1 index......<2.5-6.0>.........maybe high?
TSH ............................. 2.080 Uiu/Ml ..<.45 -4.5>.....mid
Vit D............................. 23.5L ng/mL ..<32-100>......low
Waking temperature 96.1 - 96.8 F most mornings........ low
LDL 140 and cholesteral 215-235........................... .....High
Signs of hypothyroid that I have:
YES constipation
YES forgetfulness
YES high cholesterol
YES fatigue and sluggishness
YES sensitivity to cold
YES inability to lose weight on low calories
YES decreased body temperature
YES slowed heart rate.
NO high levels of thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) and
NO low measures of thyroxine (T4)
thanks especially for feedback of what to ask the Endocrinologist.
I know you are frustrated and have been frustrated lately with physicians. I hear that loud and clear.
Obviously I'm not Leigh and I'm going to be a little devil's advocate here (or endo's advocate )
Why not give the new endo a chance do his/her job? You're a new patient to him/her. Give your chief complaint. Let him/her take your history, do an exam as needed, review the labs you bring with you and determine if she/he wants additional studies. When the facts are in (which would likely be at a followup appt), let him/her give an opinion and recommend a course of action to address your chief complaint.
Why hit him/her with a bunch of "I've been reading..." and "but what about" and "I think I might have" and "I want to ask you about X" right off the bat. Why not assume you are going to an expert and let him/her have a chance to exercise that expertise without asking a bunch of specific questions that no physician on an initial consultation is probably going to answer specifically for your situation.
You're building a therapeutic relationship here, not Mike Wallace abushing a CEO where you have to get all your questions in lest you never get another chance. At least that's the theory.
Etana have given a really, I mean really good look at your log. The only reason I did is because I fear you going to the endo tomorrow and confusing things. Also, and to be honest, I don't ever recommend getting blood work done, especially for thyroid, while on a fat loss diet. The results are going to be skewed. I also have no idea why you want hypo numbers? You don't want to have to deal with something like that as it is medication for life. Ask anyone here that has it, that isn't fun even if some extra T helps you lose at a SLIGHTLY faster pace.
I will state that you do have low D but I am assuming your last doctor that did those test results gave you directions for that. If not then I would talk to your endo about that. I agree 100% with Lisa in letting them do their job though.
From what I read in your log you hit around 1320 on average through your deficit. There were some big jumps in your intake. There were obvious days that you went higher than what you need, meaning that you had minor deficits with what could be significant surpluses if these number are a minor deficit for you.
You are seeing more sensible drops on lower calories now. You started at 175 and last I saw hit a low of 170 and this is recently with the lower calories.
You are going to bounce water from high days to low. You obviously gain some water and hit random surplusses while dieting and this is going to throw you off as well.
My take home point is you need to do, what I said you need to do, from the very beginning.
-SCREW training, just move more, walk, stretch, stop going to f**king aerobics classes.
-Eat in a more extreme deficit with refeeds.
-Take full breaks after 8-12 weeks for 2 weeks. expect to gain an assload of water and maybe even a little fat if you do it right.
-Take your vitamins and get good nutrients etc.
You expect way to much food and I think that GWR just made it worse. The error with your food mixed with the error of your random un accounted fors and then the error of your actual bodies burn = where you are now. Make it to where there is such a deficit that there is no room for error but don't train aggressive, refeed often, and expect you to be the water horse that you are.
I hope that helps. I personally don't think anything is wrong from what I am seeing. I think you are certainly dealing with some issues of age/health that are slight and problematic but I don't think anything is "wrong wrong." That is of course my personal opinion. I am only posting it because you asked and I don't want you to think I am ignoring you.
I would also like to give some props for this post by Diane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dianas
Etana,
I don't think your break set you back at all. Most of that weight gain during maintenance will be fluid gain and not fat gain. Your weight trend line for the first 11 week deficit is pretty darn flat. But look at the slope in the weight for your past four weeks--after the two week maintenance. Even after the initial drop in weight you're heading downward.
I'm getting two things out of this. 1324 average may be just a tad bit too high. Also even though your average for the first period was 1324 you have some wide swings there in calorie intake and a significant number of days closer to 1500. When you're bouncing between 500 and 2500 calories I'm not sure how helpful an average caloric intake would be. It's possible that your high days have negated the deficit. If I was you I would look at that first 11 weeks and see how many days you were between 1100 and 1500 calories vs how many days you weren't.
I also think that either the break or the carb cycling or both together have got you moving again in the direction you want. It's interesting how you're still bouncing between calorie extremes but following the carb cycling pattern seems to be much more effective.
*please insert outrage vocal in humor manner so you don't peg me as a angry ranter*
Also I don't ever recommend a program that allows muscle loss. WTF? People need to chill out with that. Not one program I have ever written has allowed muscle loss more than what happens on any program for fat loss unless we are working specifically on atrophy. You don't need extreme protein intake and extreme training to keep muscle.
It's getting on my last nerve that everyone pegs me as this muscle eater. No. I just require sane amounts of training and sane amounts of protein intake for normal people.
I know you are frustrated and have been frustrated lately with physicians. I hear that loud and clear.
Obviously I'm not Leigh and I'm going to be a little devil's advocate here (or endo's advocate )
Why not give the new endo a chance do his/her job? You're a new patient to him/her. Give your chief complaint. Let him/her take your history, do an exam as needed, review the labs you bring with you and determine if she/he wants additional studies. When the facts are in (which would likely be at a followup appt), let him/her give an opinion and recommend a course of action to address your chief complaint.
Why hit him/her with a bunch of "I've been reading..." and "but what about" and "I think I might have" and "I want to ask you about X" right off the bat. Why not assume you are going to an expert and let him/her have a chance to exercise that expertise without asking a bunch of specific questions that no physician on an initial consultation is probably going to answer specifically for your situation.
You're building a therapeutic relationship here, not Mike Wallace abushing a CEO where you have to get all your questions in lest you never get another chance. At least that's the theory.
Etana have given a really, I mean really good look at your log. The only reason I did is because I fear you going to the endo tomorrow and confusing things. Also, and to be honest, I don't ever recommend getting blood work done, especially for thyroid, while on a fat loss diet. The results are going to be skewed. I also have no idea why you want hypo numbers? You don't want to have to deal with something like that as it is medication for life. Ask anyone here that has it, that isn't fun even if some extra T helps you lose at a SLIGHTLY faster pace.
I will state that you do have low D but I am assuming your last doctor that did those test results gave you directions for that. If not then I would talk to your endo about that. I agree 100% with Lisa in letting them do their job though.
From what I read in your log you hit around 1320 on average through your deficit. There were some big jumps in your intake. There were obvious days that you went higher than what you need, meaning that you had minor deficits with what could be significant surpluses if these number are a minor deficit for you.
You are seeing more sensible drops on lower calories now. You started at 175 and last I saw hit a low of 170 and this is recently with the lower calories.
You are going to bounce water from high days to low. You obviously gain some water and hit random surplusses while dieting and this is going to throw you off as well.
My take home point is you need to do, what I said you need to do, from the very beginning.
-SCREW training, just move more, walk, stretch, stop going to f**king aerobics classes. -Eat in a more extreme deficit with refeeds. -Take full breaks after 8-12 weeks for 2 weeks. expect to gain an assload of water and maybe even a little fat if you do it right. -Take your vitamins and get good nutrients etc.
You expect way to much food and I think that GWR just made it worse. The error with your food mixed with the error of your random un accounted fors and then the error of your actual bodies burn = where you are now. Make it to where there is such a deficit that there is no room for error but don't train aggressive, refeed often, and expect you to be the water horse that you are.
I hope that helps. I personally don't think anything is wrong from what I am seeing. I think you are certainly dealing with some issues of age/health that are slight and problematic but I don't think anything is "wrong wrong." That is of course my personal opinion. I am only posting it because you asked and I don't want you to think I am ignoring you.
Good luck with the endo.
Thank you both. I agree, I do not really want a hypo diagnosis.
Leigh, Thank you for the time you have put in to the reading and the writing, as I know this is an extremely hectic time for you.
That said:
Quote:
There were some big jumps in your intake. There were obvious days that you went higher than what you need, meaning that you had minor deficits with what could be significant surpluses if these number are a minor deficit for you.
Every week I tallied an average calorie intake, and the high days were all accounted for in that intake, averaging about 1320 calories. The high days did not increase the average, and were accounted for.
Quote:
From what I read in your log you hit around 1320 on average through your deficit.
That was with 6 days exercise, so it didn't seem a lot of food for a 170 pound big-boned gal
Quote:
You are seeing more sensible drops on lower calories now. You started at 175 and last I saw hit a low of 170 and this is recently with the lower calories.
This is the result of a real 1430 cal average over 17 weeks INCLUDING the 2 week diet break when I averaged 2200 calories. It has taken me 4 weeks to recover from that diet break.
Quote:
The error with your food mixed with the error of your random un accounted fors
Yes there is error in how sweet a peach is, but there are no random accounted fors. That is why you saw "tater tots" a few months ago in my fitday. What you did not notice was that there were THREE lil ol' nasty tater tots. This is the first time every single thing is written down. Every lick.
Quote:
Make it to where there is such a deficit that there is no room for error
-Move more, walk, stretch, stop going to f**king aerobics classes.
-Eat in a more extreme deficit with refeeds.
-Take full breaks after 8-12 weeks for 2 weeks. expect to gain an assload of water and maybe even a little fat if you do it right.
-Take your vitamins and get good nutrients etc.
So an average of 1100 calories per day?
1000 cal/ day ?
including 100cal of psyllium and Fish oil?
so 900-1000 cal of food + fishoil/psyllium is really what you recommend?
I will try to increase my deficit to 1000 cal/day, but at 1000cal of food, it seems.... very extreme.
I can/will do this but it really seems like a starvation diet, with me at 170 pounds now.
I'm already doing two 600-cal days. It seems like I am fasting a lot.
I am not complaining. I just cannot understand it. Your bottom line to me is that my deficit is not large enough. I do feel like crying. But I'd rather not have hypo issues, really, bottom line.
I would also like to give some props for this post by Diane.
*please insert outrage vocal in humor manner so you don't peg me as a angry ranter*
Also I don't ever recommend a program that allows muscle loss. WTF? People need to chill out with that. Not one program I have ever written has allowed muscle loss more than what happens on any program for fat loss unless we are working specifically on atrophy. You don't need extreme protein intake and extreme training to keep muscle.
It's getting on my last nerve that everyone pegs me as this muscle eater. No. I just require sane amounts of training and sane amounts of protein intake for normal people.
Minor hijack here. What's with the comments on muscle loss? I'm missing something here. I have never ever thought of your programs as contributing to muscle loss so if it was something I wrote that inferred that I'm really really sorry. If it was something else it certainly went right by my head.
I think the Eat/Stop/Eat cycle you have been doing could be adding to the problem. Why not just try to eat the same amount every day for 5-6 days/week and then a 1-2 day refeed.
I understand the desire to want to find something concrete wrong, but thyroid issues are a pain in the butt. Lifelong meds, changing levels, frequent blood tests. What I have paid over the years in med even with good health insurance....
Dr. W is a brilliant doctor and a nice guy too (he is young, don't be shocked) He will do a very thorough history and really listen to you. Tell him your symptoms and concerns and the fact that you have been tracking your intake so carefully. Take your most current lab results to show him. Good luck!
Minor hijack here. What's with the comments on muscle loss? I'm missing something here. I have never ever thought of your programs as contributing to muscle loss so if it was something I wrote that inferred that I'm really really sorry. If it was something else it certainly went right by my head.
It wasn't anything you said at all. I liked your response very much and feel it was spot on.
I was referring to someone else and other in general commenting on my programs and muscle loss. Just because I don't do super intense training, require insane protein amounts, and most of the time rate of loss is pretty steady, people are going to lose muscle at alarming rates.
That was with 6 days exercise, so it didn't seem a lot of food for a 170 pound big-boned gal
You have to understand though that this doesn't mean anything. What are you basing this off of? Standard formula that from my experience mean jack in the real world. Add age, training experience, and less than optimal health and it means even less.
You can get into advancing your maintenance when NOT dieting down. When you are dieting down it seems as if you are someone who is going to need a lower caloric intake. Not sick, not hypo, just cause.
Quote:
This is the result of a real 1430 cal average over 17 weeks INCLUDING the 2 week diet break when I averaged 2200 calories. It has taken me 4 weeks to recover from that diet break.
The body cares not for an average. You had spikes of high calories mixed into your dieting.
Here is some perspective.
After 2 weeks of an extreme deficit (no high days at all) for myself lets say I weigh 143 pounds. Let's say I started at 144.5. I refeed and shoot up to 149 pounds. It will take at least 10-12 days for me to see that 143 again, if even. I might not even see it for 2 weeks. So at the end of 2 weeks I am at 142.5. I refeed again and shoot back up to 148. Two weeks go by and I land at 141.5.
If this happens it means one of three things generally.
-The deficit is not big enough
-There are hormonal issues that can be confirmed via test
-There are water cloaking issues and just need to wait for a whoosh
If the doc says you are fine, and at this point you haven't whooshed, then you are not eating low enough on a day to day basis to make up for the water you regain to see results.
You still have lost 14 inches overall, that is nothing to sneeze at.
You still have lost 5lbs overall, that is nothing to sneeze at.
All this stuff says to me that you are in a deficit, it isn't a very extreme one and you need to be in a greater one.
Sorry but even an average of 1400 calories for some people mean jack for fat loss. Some girls that can be a little below maintenance. I don't think you get how little of food we deserve as people especially in a caloric deficit. When you eat more you will burn more yes, but only to a degree. This will increase your maintenance but it will also give you slow fat loss.
So you can eat 1700 calories a day and you might see roughly the same rate of loss of eating at 1400 calories a day or even 1300/1200. It isn't until you drop at a significant low that you will make up for it if you are someone who adapts easily to a deficit. No everyone will react like this, especially those in very physically demanding jobs. However it would seem you are one of them, so either take you slow pace or adjust downwards with strategic refeeds so that you stay ahead of the slow down as much as possible. Still, be warned, you are going to store an assload of water with every refeed and that trend is never going to be as fast as someone who doesn't need to do this in the first place.
Hand. Delt. Sucks.
Quote:
Yes there is error in how sweet a peach is, but there are no random accounted fors. That is why you saw "tater tots" a few months ago in my fitday. What you did not notice was that there were THREE lil ol' nasty tater tots. This is the first time every single thing is written down. Every lick.
The errors I am discussing is with your assumed caloric burn mixed with what the ACTUAL FOOD energy is which you can weight all you want, it is still best guess which is why I always say if you aren't losing and if healthy adjust downwards.
Quote:
I will try to increase my deficit to 1000 cal/day, but at 1000cal of food, it seems.... very extreme.
Extreme, again, to who? A marathon runner yeah. The average female I work with (average) does not come close to deserving the classic 2000 calories a day that is assumed to be the gold standard. Get the numbers out of your head if you want the results in your clothes.
Quote:
I can/will do this but it really seems like a starvation diet, with me at 170 pounds now.
I'm already doing two 600-cal days. It seems like I am fasting a lot.
I wouldn't recommend winging 600 cal days. I don't see a need for that.
You have got cycling all wrong. There are different styles of cycling for different needs. Body recomp is different than if needing a larger amount of fat loss at a higher rate.
The best results I have had on average is with 5 day straight low days, 2 high days. This would be roughly 1000 or 900 at lowest with 2000 high. Even if the 2000 is a surplus it doesn't matter you would need it. If it isn't a surplus or close than you wouldn't likely need a diet like this (for anyone else reading who would try and do this).
I don't want to say not to worry about protein, but most women in these situation do seem to respond better with a lower protein intake and higher carbohydrate intakes. Roughly 70-80g would be more than enough. You can take fish oils and everything but if you can get it in your diet go for it. This is a short term (hopefully) situation so get what you can, where you can.
This is of course if you want faster rate of loss. I am not only supportive of that. There is nothing wrong with losing a little here and there. The choice is yours but I just don't see anything glowing medically (I am not a doctor) so given your CURRENT situation, this is the advice I would give.
I will simply say this… If I eat over 1200 cals average, I maintain. I have a big range of maintenance… I mean, I don't gain at 1600, but i have to get down to 1200 before I see loss. Basically, over 1200 is too small a deficit when considering margin of error, variations of expenditure, and fluctuations in water. This is coming from someone who is healthy and has absolutely no issues with hormones, just apparently a really energy efficient body.
It sucks ass, but if I want real loss, I'm at 1000. Not an average of 1000, but actually consistently at 1000. Refeeds fine, but otherwise 1000. With low intensity to maintain energy levels to not sit on my ass any more than I already have to.
I will simply say this… If I eat over 1200 cals average, I maintain. I have a big range of maintenance… I mean, I don't gain at 1600, but i have to get down to 1200 before I see loss. Basically, over 1200 is too small a deficit when considering margin of error, variations of expenditure, and fluctuations in water. This is coming from someone who is healthy and has absolutely no issues with hormones, just apparently a really energy efficient body.
It sucks ass, but if I want real loss, I'm at 1000. Not an average of 1000, but actually consistently at 1000. Refeeds fine, but otherwise 1000. With low intensity to maintain energy levels to not sit on my ass any more than I already have to.
Just as a point of reference.
Take care.
Aoife,
This does sound like me: energy efficient body (if we didn't want to be thin, this would really be a blessing under another circumstance)... and possibly a big range of maintenance (like 1200-1800 cal)
From what you and Diana and Leigh are saying, the average calorie per week scenaro doesn't compute? The body doesn't know today is Wednesday; I would think an average for the week would make sense.
Aoife,
This does sound like me: energy efficient body (if we didn't want to be thin, this would really be a blessing under another circumstance)... and possibly a big range of maintenance (like 1200-1800 cal)
This is exactly right. Technically it is a GOOD thing. For the record my body is the same way, it protects me well and it sucks when you don't want it to.
Quote:
From what you and Diana and Leigh are saying, the average calorie per week scenaro doesn't compute? The body doesn't know today is Wednesday; I would think an average for the week would make sense.
"Caloric confusion" doesn't seem to work as well, beyond just water cloak. Its obviously a downgrade in energy usage that seems to happen very quickly for some. So after a 1000 day 1400 just isn't what it use to be and so on but 1000 still seems to be enough to so do the job. I should technically be speaking in deficit percentages but you get the drift.
In short a 40% changes how the 20% reacts. However, just staying at 30% the whole time seems to bring the same results as bouncing between the 40% and 20%. Go figure.
It seems best to go 50% of intake need and then to 100-110% if you are going to bounce and stay steady at the 50% for long enough. 3 days IMO seems to be to short. After 6 days people crack. 4-5 days seem to be the sweet spot. This is completely anecdotal non-peer research talk, but that is what I have seen thus far.
I know you are pissed off, I know it sucks. I don't not empathize but this is the best answer I can give at this time with the information I have.
When you are dieting down it seems as if you are someone who is going to need a lower caloric intake. Not sick, not hypo, just cause.
The body cares not for an average. You had spikes of high calories mixed into your dieting.
If this happens it means one of three things generally. -The deficit is not big enough
-There are hormonal issues that can be confirmed via test
-There are water cloaking issues and just need to wait for a whoosh
All this stuff says to me that you are in a deficit, it isn't a very extreme one and you need to be in a greater one.
... how little of food we deserve as people especially in a caloric deficit.
... same rate of loss of eating at 1400 calories a day or even 1300/1200. It isn't until you drop at a significant low that you will make up for it if you are someone who adapts easily to a deficit. However it would seem you are one of them, so either take you slow pace or adjust downwards with strategic refeeds so that you stay ahead of the slow down as much as possible. Still, be warned, you are going to store an assload of water with every refeed and that trend is never going to be as fast as someone who doesn't need to do this in the first place.
Hand. Delt. Sucks.
... if you aren't losing and if healthy adjust downwards.
Extreme, again, to who? ....Get the numbers out of your head if you want the results in your clothes.
I wouldn't recommend winging 600 cal days. I don't see a need for that. You have got cycling all wrong. There are different styles of cycling for different needs: The best results I have had on average is with 5 day straight low days, 2 high days. This would be roughly 1000 or 900 at lowest with 2000 high. Even if the 2000 is a surplus it doesn't matter you would need it. If it isn't a surplus or close than you wouldn't likely need a diet like this (for anyone else reading who would try and do this).
I don't want to say not to worry about protein, but most women in these situation do seem to respond better with a lower protein intake and higher carbohydrate intakes. Roughly 70-80g would be more than enough. You can take fish oils and everything but if you can get it in your diet go for it. This is a short term (hopefully) situation so get what you can, where you can.
"Hand. Delt. Sucks."
I could have worse problems. cancer. excessive debt. no legs. I think I finally get it. It is not about numbers and math and a test tube and equations. It is only deficit. Is the deficit enough or not enough? It is seeing what deficit works for me, to get my results happening, rational or not. I certainly won't starve to death.
new plan:
1. 5 day straight low days, 2 high days:
2. roughly 1000 or 900 at lowest with 2000 high
3. 70-80g protein would be more than enough
lots of easy moving (though I still may not give up the Jazzercise quite yet, just keep the pace really easy; it's such a fun dancy hour)
2 questions:
a. not 1800 cal for the high days? Again I'm thinking average, and five 900cal days + two 2000cal days = 1214cal/day, doesn't seem low enough
b. I tend to be hungrier with less protein.
Quote:
women in these situation do seem to respond better with a lower protein intake and higher carbohydrate intakes
Respond better meaning lose more weight or feel better? I tend to feel better, calmer with 110g protein.
I've also been thinking of "lean, green and marine" for my low cal days... this also goes against the higer carb concept
Leigh, and everyone, thank you for your patience with me. Leigh, tonight's two long posts you wrote were really really helpful. I surrender to my particular body and love it
It seems best to go 50% of intake need and then to 100-110% if you are going to bounce and stay steady at the 50% for long enough. 3 days IMO seems to be to short. After 6 days people crack. 4-5 days seem to be the sweet spot. This is completely anecdotal non-peer research talk, but that is what I have seen thus far.
I know you are pissed off, I know it sucks. I don't not empathize but this is the best answer I can give at this time with the information I have.
I do enjoy those 2000 cal days every week. My body rarely feels hungry, so the low days aren't so bad. I can skip carrying a lunch bag and gazillion plastics to work! And stop being a bag lady, with lunch bag and pocket book!
I'm not really pissed off. I have been really patient and really hopeful, and really committed, and actually peaceful after I get over another frustrating weigh-in. I persevere. 145-lbs is going to happen. I can do this 900 900 900 900 900 2000 2000. I can even have yummy food, (Doug's chicken-oats-cottage cheese diet would drive me bonkers, that would be a real sacrific to me). It does kind of suck though.
I have had more than my share of chocolate and hagendaas and sex and pizza. I guess it's time to pay the piper Especially if I want to be a hot old lady
"Hand. Delt. Sucks."
I could have worse problems. cancer. excessive debt. no legs. I think I finally get it. It is not about numbers and math and a test tube and equations. It is only deficit. Is the deficit enough or not enough? It is seeing what deficit works for me, to get my results happening, rational or not. I certainly won't starve to death.
new plan:
1. 5 day straight low days, 2 high days:
2. roughly 1000 or 900 at lowest with 2000 high
3. 70-80g protein would be more than enough
lots of easy moving (though I still may not give up the Jazzercise quite yet, just keep the pace really easy; it's such a fun dancy hour)
2 questions:
a. not 1800 cal for the high days? Again I'm thinking average, and five 900cal days + two 2000cal days = 1214cal/day, doesn't seem low enough
b. I tend to be hungrier with less protein.
Respond better meaning lose more weight or feel better? I tend to feel better, calmer with 110g protein.
I've also been thinking of "lean, green and marine" for my low cal days... this also goes against the higer carb concept
Leigh, and everyone, thank you for your patience with me. Leigh, tonight's two long posts you wrote were really really helpful. I surrender to my particular body and love it
I am getting ready to log off so bullet point.
Don't worry about the average, worry about the results.
Sometimes we have to stick out the hunger to get the results. You can do what you want, but as i said higher carbohydrate intake seems to help. What that is to you of course depends but to be truthful I have seen girls do even less protein and maintain their muscle or regain it very easily once they moved in a maintenance. They were hungrier though yes, and it was harder, but they lost faster. This could have to do with carbohydrates effect on t levels in the body.
I recommend looking into on your low days eating what you have and then not eating for the rest of the day. Could give it a shot. Some like waiting 3 hours to eat after wake, eating all of their days food, and then just waiting out the rest of the day. When you know the 2000 is coming in a few days it makes it more bearable.
Diana, did you delete your post? About blood sugar and averages? It was an interesting concept to think about. Perhaps I made up the concept about calorie weekly averages.
Diana, did you delete your post? About blood sugar and averages? It was an interesting concept to think about. Perhaps I made up the concept about calorie weekly averages.
Now that's weird. I thought I'd posted it. Sounds like you saw it so I wonder where it went.
Anyway to recap. Today my average blood sugar per meter was around 100 (five tests). But I actually ranged anywhere from 60 something to 270 something. Did I say diabetes sucks? Out of a 12 hour chunk of time I spent close to 6 hours either too high or too low. So that 100 average didn't end up being very good because I spent a lot of time today outside of my target range. You don't get to bank blood sugars. You try and keep them in range as much as you can. And then you get to do it all over again tomorrow. And the next day. And the next day. And the next day. I'm not complaining that's just the way it is.
That was kind of my point about calories too. I don't think you get to bank them either and while averages can give you an overall idea I think you need to look at total time spent in a deficit to get a better picture. That's why I was suggesting you look at how many days you were hitting 1100 to 1500 instead of a straight average.
My brain is kind of fried right now so I hope that makes a little bit of sense about why averages may not give you the best picture.
I will simply say this… If I eat over 1200 cals average, I maintain. I have a big range of maintenance… I mean, I don't gain at 1600, but i have to get down to 1200 before I see loss. Basically, over 1200 is too small a deficit when considering margin of error, variations of expenditure, and fluctuations in water. This is coming from someone who is healthy and has absolutely no issues with hormones, just apparently a really energy efficient body.
It sucks ass, but if I want real loss, I'm at 1000. Not an average of 1000, but actually consistently at 1000. Refeeds fine, but otherwise 1000. With low intensity to maintain energy levels to not sit on my ass any more than I already have to.
Same here. I lost fine earlier with 1400-1600 kcal, but since I'm closer to the weight I wanna be, its not so easy any more. I have to eat around 1100 now to lose (with weekend refeeds around 2000).
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Vegetarian, consumer of large quantities of Quark cheese
Working my way from 76.4 to 58 kg (168 - 127.6 lbs)
Lifting a bit, schedule varies. Barbell weight: 22kg/48.4#
All I can say is WOW!!! I got to wake up to such an interesting and information discussion.
Leigh, I absolutely love reading your advice (and I adore your podcasts.) You are a breath of sanity in this crazy world of dieting.
These past couple weeks have just been up and down for me within a couple pounds and I want to see the whoosh again.
Keeping a 40% deficit is so damn hard, but that's when I see easy loses. Put me in the 30% range and the loss is a lot slower. I might not need to eat at 1000 cals to drop weight, but I do need to eat at 1400 and right now that is a struggle.
We're all wishing Etana the best of luck with her appointment. I truly understand your idea that we don't want anything to be wrong. So Etana, I hope the doctor says you are 100% healthy. Keep us posted.
Well, I might as well post results here, since this great discussion was here.
This was LaraT's Endo in Washington DC (Dr. Wexler) and he was fantastic; one of the best doctor's I've even seen. Really listened, and thought, and asked and listened and examined.
So the lab work from end of July is normal except
1. D3 as we knew. He likes that I'm on D3 5000mg now, and wants to check that bloodwork again in a month. October 3
2. He wants to test adrenal with blood work to see cortisol level, but suggested having that test taken at same time as D3, in a month, which makes sense to me. I never did understand Cortisol, but I think he said if it is low he would do an adrenal stimulation test. He did not like the adrenal saliva test; said there were too many variables
3. He found no nodules but said my right thyroid was enlarged from examining, so he gave me script for neck sonogram/ultrasound, which I'll do tomorrow. Now I remember my aunt about 3 times in the past 15 years asking me if I have a goiter, also on the right. He says enlarge thyroid is usually normal.
4. He asked what had worked in the past for weight loss. I said "the fast all day and eat 1/2 roast chicken & a pickle at night diet in my 30's." He laughed. He asked if I had done any programs like WW (did, didn't really work on 22pts), or pills. I mentioned Phen-Fen (or maybe he asked). I said that had worked for a while, I lost about 17 pounds about 8-10 years ago, and then it stopped working or I wasnt' diligent enough with my food. And then it was taken off the market. And I had mitral valve prolapse heart no regurg, which was NOT attributable to th PhenFen according to heart doctor; I've had biyearly tests and am normal.
He asked and then gave me a script for phentermine 37.5mg 1x/day for 30 days. He wants me to get heart and blood pressure tests 3x/week while I am taking which seems very cautious and good. He wants the results of the first week's tests sent to him. Also good. I said I didn't want the drug if it was only an appetitite supressor, since I'm rarely hungry. But he said it also was a stimulant of some sort, so I grabbed it.
We talked about what time of day to take it. I am most tired from 3-10pm and then I get energy at 10. I am most in the mood to "nosh" from 3pm to 10pm. He asked when my biggest meal was. I said lunchtime, but I dont' really have any big meal; all are between 150 and 350 cal. He suggested 7am but I may take it at noon. He said "watch if it keeps you up at night." I'll google Phentermine; what do you think of this?
I asked, "if I'm not hungry on the drug, should i eat anyway?" (I do eat pretty regularly and it really helps my hunger). He said, "no, don't eat if you're not hungry." He said my HR shouldn't be over 100 and my BP shouldn't be over 140/90. (Normal for me is 110/70 and low heart rate)
4. He had no comments or suggestions for my slow intestine muscle contractions for my slow digestion, and was not concerned about my morning temperature of 96.1-96.8... He said many people come in with thyroid symptoms like mine, but if the tests are normal.... then it is just general similar symptoms.
I do still plan on doing Leigh's suggestion of 900x5, 2000x2, but this first week will go with my hunger feelings. I plan on moderate exercise 5-6 days per week, and increased walking. I am holding on to Jazzercise: let's pretend it's just me dancing around and having fun for an hour, it's not really exercise... just being physcially active and having fun. I used to go dancing in clubs for hours... It's like that (Leigh.. you wouldn't want to give up dancing, wouldya?). I'll stay light though. I'll also continue dumbbell resistance work OPT. I like it and it hard but not too hard.
google: Phentermine diet pills are very effective appetite suppressors. Phentermine blocks the neurotransmitters that are sent by your stomach to tell your brain that it is hungry. Phentermine is similar to amphetamine. It stimulates the nervous system, elevates blood pressure, and increases heart rate. It may hide the symptoms of extreme tiredness. (I better sleep enough).
I'm kind of surprised he prescribed the Phentermine
Thanks to everyone again for all your generosity and education and brainstorming and compassion, and generally cheering for my success all these months
Etana I am short on time but can I ask what part of "Screw training" do you not understand. Take a month off training, no training Etana.
*Caveat not being an asshole*
How about this. I WOULDN'T TRAIN AT ALL FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH. IF YOU TRAIN DON'T BOTHER EATING THAT LOW.
Walk. That's it. Just walk. For a whole month, walk. Foam rolling or stretching is good but just walk. Not powerwalk, not walking with a weighted vest, but looking at the beautiful f**king birdies fly walking. If there is a potential for adrenal issues this is all the better anyway.
NO TRAINING.
If you are going to train don't do that plan. Period.
I will have a more poised statement later. Well a statement at least.
Etana, I am so glad the appointment went well. Isn't he a great guy? Last time I was there he spent almost 1.5 hours going over things with me and he has always been very responsive via email as well. I had some very strange lab results once and he consulted with a colleague at NIH about my case. Very thorough.
Sounds like a good plan of action to go back and get those tests in a month and to be so careful with the heart checks. I am also a bit surprised he RX'd that drug but I think he is very tuned in to what the patient is feeling (and I am sure he sensed your frustration) so maybe this will help give you a bit of a boost with the weight.
Etana, I am so glad the appointment went well. Isn't he a great guy? Last time I was there he spent almost 1.5 hours going over things with me and he has always been very responsive via email as well. I had some very strange lab results once and he consulted with a colleague at NIH about my case. Very thorough.
Sounds like a good plan of action to go back and get those tests in a month and to be so careful with the heart checks. I am also a bit surprised he RX'd that drug but I think he is very tuned in to what the patient is feeling (and I am sure he sensed your frustration) so maybe this will help give you a bit of a boost with the weight.
Yes, time did not seem to be an issue with him. I am so used to the "5 minute doctor visit" where you leave feeling incomplete
MON May 4, WEIGHT: 175.6
TUE Sept. 1, WEIGHT: 170.4
WED Sept.2, WEIGHT: 172.0
THU Sept. 3, WEIGHT: 169.6
FRI Sept. 4, WEIGHT: 168.4
just water loss, right?
(or it could be the 3803 deficit I've had already this week?)
or the (81,000 deficit /3500 = 23 lbs) since May 4 finally catching up?
sure is pretty
I sure do "deserve it"
7.2 lbs lost in 18 weeks. Now that is progress!
Okay, I deserve less food, let's run with that and see what happens!
Etana I am short on time but can I ask what part of "Screw training" do you not understand. Take a month off training, no training Etana.
*Caveat not being an asshole*
How about this. I WOULDN'T TRAIN AT ALL FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH. IF YOU TRAIN DON'T BOTHER EATING THAT LOW.
Walk. That's it. Just walk. For a whole month, walk. Foam rolling or stretching is good but just walk. Not powerwalk, not walking with a weighted vest, but looking at the beautiful f**king birdies fly walking. If there is a potential for adrenal issues this is all the better anyway.
NO TRAINING.
If you are going to train don't do that plan. Period.
I will have a more poised statement later. Well a statement at least.
From OPT C1, you want me to keep my heart rate during activity at:
60 years 80–136 beats per minute 160 beats per minute
55% of 164 = 90 beats per minute
Leigh, So I know you don't like bargaining, (from listening to your Desperate to Lose mp3s) but I do love dancing with my Jazzercise instructor. At some point during REPAIR I went to class, and kept my HR to 110 the whole class; it was still fun. If I seriously commit to not getting energetic during the hour, would this still be rebellion? I know I can rebel against authority, and I know you have the experience and knowledge of seeing where things go wrong.
I love looking at birds and have a beautiful forest path right behind my home. And I have never explored the neighborhood around where I work, always in the gym at work instead. Coming into fall, a beautiful time for long pleasant discovery walks.
I don't yet feel headachy or hungry on these low calories, but the next weeks may show some real hunger. But on the phentermine, the hunger will also be masked, and I can't intuitively trust my energy level while medicated on this drug. So a double reason for slow and easy and frequent NEAT: very low calorie and phentermine affect.
Quote:
I will have a more poised statement later. Well a statement at least.
An article, I hope?
p.s. Are you planning on publishing Desperate to Lose? I assume you got my + feedback?
Just because I don't do super intense training, require insane protein amounts, and most of the time rate of loss is pretty steady, people are going to lose muscle at alarming rates.
just water loss, right?
(or it could be the 3803 deficit I've had already this week?)
or the (81,000 deficit /3500 = 23 lbs) since May 4 finally catching up?
sure is pretty
I sure do "deserve it"
7.2 lbs lost in 18 weeks. Now that is progress!
Okay, I deserve less food, let's run with that and see what happens!
Etana,
You got your whoosh. It's not water, girl--it's confirming that you what you have been doing is right. It' will bounce up again but what is important is that your weight range is ever lower. The high days are not important, THEY are the water weight.
I hope you won't take this the wrong way, Etana, but what you need most (as Alan has said) is time and patience. I've been watching you for what--a year now? Over at the BFL group with Skwigg, and here now, and my advice to you is to CALM DOWN. I'm glad you are getting Leigh's attention and that you are not mixing and matching plans now (ESE, OPT, etc) but the main thing is, stick with it and don't go bonkers after one or two weeks wondering why nothing is happening.
That is all. I'll be interested to see if you can hold still long enough to follow through on Leigh's advice to not train.
xxooo
And Leigh--applied for Sainthood yet? I'll testify for you. Seriously, great thread. Lots to learn here.
For once (well more often too ) I'm agreeing with Leigh.. if the plan is to starve at 500kcal or so.. Jazzercise is too MUCH for you.
You have to make choices here: either you do the exercise or you do the plan. Not both at the same time. It's impossible to do a huge deficit while exercising. If only because you'd get hurt or sick.. I meant what I said in your log.
For once (well more often too ) I'm agreeing with Leigh.. if the plan is to starve at 500kcal or so.. Jazzercise is too MUCH for you.
You have to make choices here: either you do the exercise or you do the plan. Not both at the same time. It's impossible to do a huge deficit while exercising. If only because you'd get hurt or sick.. I meant what I said in your log.
No, I'm not going to do 500cal/day. I'm gonna do
900x5 and 1800x2 or 2000x2. This first week on Phentermine I may let myself eat lower while I am so not interested in food. I just came back from Safeway with kale, red/yellow/orange peppers, strawberries, cantelope, cukes... Tomorrow and Sunday are my high-cal days and I may eat out and go to a party and enjoy food treats.
I am ambivalent about the Phentermine, and would be curious opinions about alteratives to it such as what Espi mentioned:
a. ephedrine+caffeine combo..
b. either combinations of caffein with yohimbine (not legal here) or tyrosine (am on N-acetyl tyrosine myself again.. pretty awesome supp for energy w/o getting burnt out).
c. The other option may have been for something that really sucks out fat but doesn't feel like a fat burner = resveratrol. It's what I've used for a long time now and the brilliancy of it is that it is also an anti-aging supp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang
I hope you won't take this the wrong way, Etana, but what you need most (as Alan has said) is time and patience. I've been watching you for what--a year now? Over at the BFL group with Skwigg, and here now,
But you have been now watching me for 2-4 years actually at the same 170-175 pounds. I began BFL in Sept 2005. That is 4 years ago. At the same weight while in deficit, and 4 years' WeightWatchers before that, bouncing around 170-185
• I have been patient • very very patient • hopeful • compliant • positive • open to being educated • open to changing my food habits • open to eating really healthy food • open to TurbulenceTraining, Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle, EatStopEat, FLTS/MRM • open to eating the weirdest things for "breakfast" . I did each of these programs for more than 12 weeks, usually 6 months. I need results. Some damn thing has to change with what I am doing. It hasn't been healthy for me to spend the past 4-8 years on 1200 calories, either.
You can hear my frustration. Right now I am lowering the intake to create a larger deficit.
Leigh, What to ask endocrinologist tomorrow?
) 
Especially if I want to be a hot old lady
). I'll stay light though. I'll also continue dumbbell resistance work OPT. I like it and it hard but not too hard.
Seriously, great thread. Lots to learn here.
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