What does happen when you lift in a deficit?

[Katydid77]

So, my best friend (who is a work out fiend) and I were talking the other day about my doing NROL4W and losing weight.

I made a comment about getting stronger on the deadlifts and things and she made the comment "Well, remember you aren't going to gain muscle on a calorie deficit, so don't get discouraged"

I just nodded like a good newbie should, but it did get me thinking. I hear that around here a lot, that you can't build muscle if you are losing weight.

SO: If you do the weight loss version are you gaining any muscle? If not, why am I able to lift more? I know weight loss is all about diet, so I'm not questioning that, I am just curious about what IS taking place when this goes on? Can you get stronger on a deficit?

[LaraT]

Originally Posted by Katydid77

So, my best friend (who is a work out fiend) and I were talking the other day about my doing NROL4W and losing weight.

I made a comment about getting stronger on the deadlifts and things and she made the comment "Well, remember you aren't going to gain muscle on a calorie deficit, so don't get discouraged"

I just nodded like a good newbie should, but it did get me thinking. I hear that around here a lot, that you can't build muscle if you are losing weight.

SO: If you do the weight loss version are you gaining any muscle? If not, why am I able to lift more? I know weight loss is all about diet, so I'm not questioning that, I am just curious about what IS taking place when this goes on? Can you get stronger on a deficit?

Getting stronger and building muscle mass are two different things.

[PowerManDL]

Originally Posted by Katydid77

SO: If you do the weight loss version are you gaining any muscle? If not, why am I able to lift more? I know weight loss is all about diet, so I'm not questioning that, I am just curious about what IS taking place when this goes on? Can you get stronger on a deficit?

Beginners can add muscle/lose fat at the same time. Fat people can too.

You can lift more mainly because of acute neurological adaptations, which are also very pronounced in beginners.

Basically newbies have a ton of things going in their favor that stop happening as you add muscle and get stronger.

[Katydid77]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

Beginners can add muscle/lose fat at the same time. Fat people can too.

You can lift more mainly because of acute neurological adaptations, which are also very pronounced in beginners.

Basically newbies have a ton of things going in their favor that stop happening as you add muscle and get stronger.

I am a beginner AND fat, so I win!

'acute neurological adaptations', interesting. I have wondered myself if what I assume are 'gains' are really simply learning my own strength thresholds, learning proper form, and becoming comfortable trying to lift what would have seemed impossible before. Perhaps that plays into that?

I am going to ride the newbie wagon for as long as my body will. Thank you. It does make me feel better that I CAN make a few gains while I am losing. I am in it for the long haul either way . . . but it's still nice

[dougz]

You will get stronger as a beginner, no problem..

You can't help but get stronger..

As has been mentioned, the neural adaptation will carry you for quite a while, until you begin to "stall"..

ie. you reach a point at which for further gains to occur one of the big things you will need is greater muscle mass, and enough stored energy in said muscles..

Which is impossible to achieve if you're eating below your body's maintenence level..

I'm at that stage, currently..

I started stalling on my lifts before going on a diet..

At that point I needed to start eating more..

But after doing some reading I found out that the more body fat one has, the more the body is wired to put extra calories towards more fat, rather than building new muscle..

So now I'm eating at a deficit, and I'm happy if I can just keep pushing the same weights as last week..

I can't wait till I get to a decent body fat level so I can start eating enough to give me the energy to build muscle again!!

Also important for gains will be good lifting technique, and pre and post WO nutrition (energy, glycogen stores)..

'gains' are really simply learning my own strength thresholds, learning proper form, and becoming comfortable trying to lift what would have seemed impossible before.

Gains are either more weight, or more reps, executed with correct form..

If you're lifting 5 more lbs, but your form is worse, you have gone nowhere..

This is an important concept, on I have to remind myself of constantly..

Take it slow.. An extra pair of 2.5 lbs plates per week is just fine..

[miss_jupiter76]

You may (or may not) lose "weight" but I can't see how you couldn't lose *fat* and that's what it is all about. For those of us who need to lose it anyway. Even NROL4W while primarily about strength training does address the fat loss issue. Now that begs the question which IF you do have a lot of fat to lose and you weigh 30, 40 or 50+ more than you should, how could you not lose pounds as well? If you're getting stronger its because you're gaining muscle no? And if you have more muscle on you then your RMR goes up so naturally you burn more calories whether on maintenance or not. Since this book isn't about body building, and most people reading are not interested in being Mr./Ms. Olympia, I can't see how converting all that weight to muscle is even possible or what anyone who is looking to lose weight and fit in a smaller size really wants.

I'm new to this too so hopefully someone who knows more can clarify this but just saying I empathize with your confusion. Why do the hard work + maintain a deficit and not see it in the midsection? Overweight people are stronger than the average person anyway (per NROL4W). They are not weak just because they have extra flab.

[dougz]

If you're getting stronger its because you're gaining muscle no?

No..

Not necessarily..

As has been said in not so many words, you can get very strong without ever putting a pound of muscle on..

IF you have room, neural adaptation-wise..

And if you have more muscle on you then your RMR goes up so naturally you burn more calories whether on maintenance or not.

Yes..

Muscle burns more energy than muscle..

Just keep in mind that the more you weigh, the more calories you burn..

So as you shed fat, your RMR actually goes down, unless you're adding the same amount of muscle, which is impossible if eating at a deficit..

Why do the hard work + maintain a deficit and not see it in the midsection?

??

Well.. You would!

As I say, it is difficult if not impossible, metabolically speaking, to add 10 lbs of muscle and lose 10 lbs of fat when eating at a deficit..

Though if you are quite overweight and totally new to lifting weights, the growth stimulus could be enough that the body would use enough stored fat for energy and that COULD conceivably be enough to add muscle..

But why am I even carrying on about this?! LOL

Worrying about your RMR and your muscle gains canceling out your weight loss, etc. is a bit ridiculous, if that's what your saying..

Are you saying you think you would look the same if you replaced 30 lbs of fat with 30 lbs of fat?

They are not weak just because they have extra flab

Damn straight!

They are lifting 10-20 weights every time they lift their arms.. Even more for their legs..

They are carrying weight around every time they stand up..

If it wasn't a health issue (and yes, in my case, I admit it freely, a physical attractiveness and self respect issue), I'd much rather get stronger and burn more calories carrying around a spare tire around my waist, than an actual tire around my neck (you ever see those guys running around with tires? or flak jackets? Now that looks funny.. ).

[PowerManDL]

Originally Posted by miss_jupiter76

Now that begs the question which IF you do have a lot of fat to lose and you weigh 30, 40 or 50+ more than you should, how could you not lose pounds as well?

You would.

If you're getting stronger its because you're gaining muscle no?

Not necessarily.

And if you have more muscle on you then your RMR goes up so naturally you burn more calories whether on maintenance or not.

Fun fact: adipose tissue is metabolically active and burns roughly the same amount of cals/hour as muscle.

Since this book isn't about body building, and most people reading are not interested in being Mr./Ms. Olympia, I can't see how converting all that weight to muscle is even possible or what anyone who is looking to lose weight and fit in a smaller size really wants.

You're not going to even approach Olympia levels without a syringe.

Why do the hard work + maintain a deficit and not see it in the midsection?

LOL WUT

Overweight people are stronger than the average person anyway (per NROL4W). They are not weak just because they have extra flab.

This needs a bit more context. A fat person with less LBM than I have is going to be weaker than I am. A big fat powerlifter is a different story.

[miss_jupiter76]

Dougz: I'm saying it would be very hard to replace 30 lbs of fat with 30 lbs of muscle period (if 30 lbs is about all the fat you have on your body). I think I get worried when I read in NROLFW that you may not lose any weight b/c you're replacing the fat with muscle (which i get, takes up less space in the body) because that may be true for someone who needs to lose 10 or 15 pounds but when you get up above that and take into consideration how hard it is to build muscle to start with...I don't know if that logic applies anymore. So you get rid of the 10-15 and still got 15 to go...so how to get rid of *that* off your body at that point? I hope that makes sense, if not sorry I need to wind down and try to sleep :p

[LaraT]

Originally Posted by miss_jupiter76

Dougz: I'm saying it would be very hard to replace 30 lbs of fat with 30 lbs of muscle period (if 30 lbs is about all the fat you have on your body). I think I get worried when I read in NROLFW that you may not lose any weight b/c you're replacing the fat with muscle (which i get, takes up less space in the body) because that may be true for someone who needs to lose 10 or 15 pounds but when you get up above that and take into consideration how hard it is to build muscle to start with...I don't know if that logic applies anymore. So you get rid of the 10-15 and still got 15 to go...so how to get rid of *that* off your body at that point? I hope that makes sense, if not sorry I need to wind down and try to sleep :p

You have it wrong. It is not that you don't lose weight because you are building muscle (and no you don't replace fat with muscle--two different tissues) You don't lose weight because if you are following their calorie recommendations you are eating at maintenance level, not in a deficit. It is almost all about how much you eat. Some would say it is ALL about what you eat (or don't eat)

Many people find that to do NROLW they must eat at maintenance calorie levels or they don't have the energy to do the workouts (which get progressively harder plus the addition of HIIT) So, for these people who want to keep seeing strength improvements and have good energy levels they eat more and therefore don't lose. They might get stronger and more fit but if weight/fat loss is the goal it ain't gonna happen eating at maintenance. It is a choice, what are your goals? People with more to lose seem to be able to handle NROLW on a deficit better than those with 10 or so lbs to lose.

A person can have some body recomposition--a little bit of fat last and a little bit of muscle gain but not see the scale move however they would see inches decrease and clothes fit much looser. The scale is not really the best measure of progress. However if you are eating more than you burn, no matter how hard you are working out you won't lose weight/inches.

Oh, and ditch the notion that when you build more muscle your RMR increases. It really is quite negligent even for those with LOTS of muscle.

[miss_jupiter76]

LaraT: I'm still confused. But its ok. If I make myself clearer maybe you can clarifify for me (or not maybe someone else can too) I'm 150 and 5'3". I want to lose fat. For me that means in all likelihood losing weight..doesn't it?

According to NROLFW I'm 27% BMI. It would be nice to get down to 24, then 20 then maybe 18. I want all the extra fat on my waist gone (a little is ok, I don't need a six-pack to be happy). I was a 27 waist 35 hips give or take an inch before going on SDI for an injury and MD/GAD 2007 (someone else wanted to know that) and because of a combination of factors including diet, not being able to move much, work, major med changes etc...I just kept gaining weight and I'm about the tipping point now. Last time measured I was a 34 give or take/39-40 hips.

I didn't like that my body wasn't as muscular as it was when I was about same measurements two years before that (2005). I lost, I gained, I lost again, I gained. Its time to lose again!

If you want to know i'll tell you what my weight has been like since 23. 23-26 I let me self go gradually till I got up to 180 and said thats it. Ate healthier cardio then I starved the last three months (an aberration that had nothing to do with food) and last 15 pounds down to 120-125 @ 26 in late 2003. Held steady till late 2006 then meds changed appetite changed shot up to 150. meds changed again, started eating healthy, not much exercise, took about 8 months to drop back down to 130. meds changed again, work stress, eating healther (but still indulged now and then), down to ~120. Then went on SDI 2007 and here I am nearly 2 years later of steady weight gain. Ok, sorry if TMI and thanks :-)

I'd like to add I don't "diet" so yo-yo dieting doesn't apply to me.

[LaraT]

Miss Jupiter: I highly recommend the Fat Loss Trouble Shoot book. I think it will give you a lot of information that will make this less stressful and confusing for you. You say your main goal is to lose fat right? to that end then I will say that I don't think New Rules (and its diet plan) is the best for you right now. Just my hunch. I think you would be better off with a less taxing program and really work on getting a good deficit (nothing extreme per se, but enough to lose) and work on getting lots more general activity (NEAT) in your day along with some moderate exercise.

I think New Rules is a great program but from what you have said, and the amont of weight/fat you want to lose I think you would be better off really focusing on your eating at a deficit and abstain from the hard workouts.

[Lyrica]

Originally Posted by miss_jupiter76

LaraT: I'm still confused. But its ok. If I make myself clearer maybe you can clarifify for me (or not maybe someone else can too) I'm 150 and 5'3". I want to lose fat. For me that means in all likelihood losing weight..doesn't it?

According to NROLFW I'm 27% BMI. It would be nice to get down to 24, then 20 then maybe 18. I want all the extra fat on my waist gone (a little is ok, I don't need a six-pack to be happy). I was a 27 waist 35 hips give or take an inch before going on SDI for an injury and MD/GAD 2007 (someone else wanted to know that) and because of a combination of factors including diet, not being able to move much, work, major med changes etc...I just kept gaining weight and I'm about the tipping point now. Last time measured I was a 34 give or take/39-40 hips.

I didn't like that my body wasn't as muscular as it was when I was about same measurements two years before that (2005). I lost, I gained, I lost again, I gained. Its time to lose again!

If you want to know i'll tell you what my weight has been like since 23. 23-26 I let me self go gradually till I got up to 180 and said thats it. Ate healthier cardio then I starved the last three months (an aberration that had nothing to do with food) and last 15 pounds down to 120-125 @ 26 in late 2003. Held steady till late 2006 then meds changed appetite changed shot up to 150. meds changed again, started eating healthy, not much exercise, took about 8 months to drop back down to 130. meds changed again, work stress, eating healther (but still indulged now and then), down to ~120. Then went on SDI 2007 and here I am nearly 2 years later of steady weight gain. Ok, sorry if TMI and thanks :-)

I'd like to add I don't "diet" so yo-yo dieting doesn't apply to me.

I have had weight gains and losses due to illness and meds-it has the same effect on your body that yo-yo dieting does. Stress also plays a part in how well a person loses weight.

[miss_jupiter76]

I can't spend $77 right now but I'm on Leighs website b/c I think she says you can get most of the info (probably not as organized) from there. Thanks. I definately want to get it at some point though!

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

You would.



Not necessarily.



Fun fact: adipose tissue is metabolically active and burns roughly the same amount of cals/hour as muscle.



You're not going to even approach Olympia levels without a syringe.



LOL WUT



This needs a bit more context. A fat person with less LBM than I have is going to be weaker than I am. A big fat powerlifter is a different story.

Originally Posted by LaraT

You have it wrong. It is not that you don't lose weight because you are building muscle (and no you don't replace fat with muscle--two different tissues) You don't lose weight because if you are following their calorie recommendations you are eating at maintenance level, not in a deficit. It is almost all about how much you eat. Some would say it is ALL about what you eat (or don't eat)

Many people find that to do NROLW they must eat at maintenance calorie levels or they don't have the energy to do the workouts (which get progressively harder plus the addition of HIIT) So, for these people who want to keep seeing strength improvements and have good energy levels they eat more and therefore don't lose. They might get stronger and more fit but if weight/fat loss is the goal it ain't gonna happen eating at maintenance. It is a choice, what are your goals? People with more to lose seem to be able to handle NROLW on a deficit better than those with 10 or so lbs to lose.

A person can have some body recomposition--a little bit of fat last and a little bit of muscle gain but not see the scale move however they would see inches decrease and clothes fit much looser. The scale is not really the best measure of progress. However if you are eating more than you burn, no matter how hard you are working out you won't lose weight/inches.

Oh, and ditch the notion that when you build more muscle your RMR increases. It really is quite negligent even for those with LOTS of muscle.

Originally Posted by LaraT

Miss Jupiter: I highly recommend the Fat Loss Trouble Shoot book. I think it will give you a lot of information that will make this less stressful and confusing for you. You say your main goal is to lose fat right? to that end then I will say that I don't think New Rules (and its diet plan) is the best for you right now. Just my hunch. I think you would be better off with a less taxing program and really work on getting a good deficit (nothing extreme per se, but enough to lose) and work on getting lots more general activity (NEAT) in your day along with some moderate exercise.

I think New Rules is a great program but from what you have said, and the amont of weight/fat you want to lose I think you would be better off really focusing on your eating at a deficit and abstain from the hard workouts.

[dougz]

I can second the Fat Loss Trouble Shoot book being the place to start..

I can't spend $77 right now but I'm on Leighs website b/c I think she says you can get most of the info (probably not as organized) from there.

I would make it a priority..

The book is a must..

If you could get all the info in any coherent form on her website A) she wouldn't have bothered to write the book, and B) No one would have bought it..