The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
One more time... I am NOT hating on "mannish" women. I was trying to make a point. Leigh posted pics of women whom I would NOT consider bulky or "big" or "mannish". Yet they were labeled as such by the women she surveyed... the pic I posted was an example to show what I might think would generate those comments (for better or worse).
I suspect that many (most) women don't have a goal of looking like the pic I posted, and I can see where that pic might generate descriptors like "bulky" or "mannish." If you LIKE that look, that's great. No judgment, no hatin'. I never said I liked or didn't like it. I wasn't judging it as a good or bad look. I was simply shocked that the pics Leigh originally posted were described as too big by so many women, when I would've thought it would take a more extreme pic to elicit those "too big" responses from "the general public".
I'm gonna stop there. It was never about judgment - just surprise at the responses in the survey.
I think this all comes down to the fact that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think every woman wants to reach a point where they feel their body is attractive, but what is attractive is up to her. Some women want to have a very low body fat and a lot of muscle and have the look of the body builder. That is when they find themselves beautiful. Another woman might want to have a higher body fat and not as much muscle but still lost of definition. Other women may want to very strong but not necessarily with a lot of muscle mass and an even higher body fat percentage. Everyone is going to have their own ideal body. Some women are going to want large thighs, hips and butt, some want to be very skinny and less curvy. All different, but each makes someone happy. On the flip side there are going to be other body types that one will find unattractive, there is nothing wrong with not finding it attractive or desirable but condemning that person for not fitting into you aesthetic isn’t. So just because I would not want to look like your (hypothetical your, this is directed at no one in particular) ideal look, doesn’t meant that I don’t think you should pursue it. Humans aren’t meant to have 1 perfect aesthetic. Look at all the different tribes and each way they view beauty. Homogeny is no fun for anybody. fficeffice" />
It wasn't you I singled out, Bytsi. When I direct my posts to someone, I mention them by name.
Go back through the thread and count how many times the word "mannish" appears.
Then count the number of posters who used that word.
I'm not blaming anyone for using it. But I was getting flashbacks from "Nam (my high school and college years) if I read it one more time. Just jangled a nerve for me.
Personally I don't understand where the idea of a muscular woman being "Mannish" comes from. When taken to the extreme, muscle development can appear "Bulky" on men and/or woman, but I think that has more to do with proportion then anything else.
This thread has developed into something other then what I got out of Leigh's article, and got me thinking about the Movie Pumping Iron II: The Women ... as it takes place at an interesting time in womans body building (1985) and although there has now been the split into BB and Figure, I think some of the views expressed are very current.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MQ5
But perhaps muscles are one of the last frontiers for equal rights.
Very True!!
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If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten
Julie, I stated very clearly in my post that I knew I could NEVER EVER be like that woman. I only said I admired her and would LOVE to be able to do that to my body. I have news for you... even on drugs I could not look like her.
And YES, I know (more than anyone) that I am a tiny person in the grand scheme of things. That is what sort of makes this whole thing I am doing funny and why my nickname at the gym is "Beefy"
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
It was an amazing post EXCEPT that you did not understand (at all) the meaning of my comment about the "thick waist". I was simply stating that the bber that Bytsi posted did not have a great X-frame. Okay it is great but it could be made even better with a smaller waist. It isn't even remotely about how much bf% this woman has (as you first stated in your blog) but about how she is genetically put together. I too have a thick waist and understand this persons dilemma on stage. As you correctly point out, there is no getting around this as a bber except to grow lats and quads as large as possible to hide the flaw. This comment was made for bbing competition which is ALL ABOUT critiquing the visual aspects of a person's physique. Hope that clears things up. You don't have to go on stage if critiquing physiques is not your thing. It's good for you that you don't want to do it. This person (and me too) choses to go on stage and to care about these things to the degree that we can. And you know what? That's okay too if it is what we enjoy doing.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
This person (and me too) choses to go on stage and to care about these things to the degree that we can. And you know what? That's okay too if it is what we enjoy doing.
I think this just goes to show that both you and fengshway both have worked very hard on your body image. You so you can take the critique and her so she just brushes it off. You guys don't go about it the same way but the you both get same result of self confidence no matter what which is exactly what I find amazing.
hmmm, interesting perspectives everyone. I find the use of the word "flaw" particularly fascinating.
flaw (noun)a feature that mars the perfection of something; defect; fault
I absolutely agree that everyone has the sole power to decide the fate of his/her own physique. and there are as many different physique paths as there are physiques. but in a fitness forum that is geared toward general fitness, my guess is that the majority of women are actively working simultaneously toward a healthier physique and a healthier body image. therefore, using words like "flaw" to refer to a particular body part (particularly a body part whose shape might be genetically determined) just doesn't seem respectful and wouldn't appear to be a technique that would move most women toward a healthier body image or a healthier physique. I rode the body hatred/adoration rollercoaster for too many years. For me, the laser focus on body parts provides a one-way, never ending ticket to a rollercoaster that I happily left behind. I realize that my experience is just that-my experience. others may benefit greatly from having their physiques critiqued, and perhaps they will thrive and develop healthy and happy body images via bodybuilding.
from my vantage point, however, women tend to do a bang-up job critiquing their own bodies. my blogpost was simply a way to look at this issue from another perspective and to challenge women to consider other options.
It seems that when Leigh performed her survey, people on this forum and others like it did not weigh in. We all seem to like some amount of muscle on a woman, some more than others, but all in all, we agree muscles are awesome. Me personally, I love the Dara Torres look and Nora Tobin is not bad either. She looks great in her ads for whatever energy pill she is hawking these days (I forget what it is exactly.) Anyway, I have to say, I was really surprised by the survey. I thought, who doesn't like muscles? How could you prefer a soft smooth bod? How could you prefer something you could squeeze like Charmin? But according to the survey, I'm in the minority. To each his own I guess.
hmmm, interesting perspectives everyone. I find the use of the word "flaw" particularly fascinating.
... but in a fitness forum that is geared toward general fitness, my guess is that the majority of women are actively working simultaneously toward a healthier physique and a healthier body image. therefore, using words like "flaw" to refer to a particular body part (particularly a body part whose shape might be genetically determined) just doesn't seem respectful and wouldn't appear to be a technique that would move most women toward a healthier body image or a healthier physique.
And I agree 100% with everything you say when it comes to general fitness. The ONLY issue I have with your blog is that you take a bodybuilder talking about a genetic flaw with another bodybuilder and you make it out to be a bad thing. That is the VERY ESSENCE of what bodybuilding is about. So, you are basically saying that what we do isn't okay. All I am saying is that YES IT IS. We accept our bodies and our genetics and we analyze flaws or faults and we try to improve them. There is NOTHING AT ALL wrong with that. No matter how much you don't agree with it or can't accept it, it is okay for others to pursue this way of thinking.
Let me see if I can spin it differently... If I was on a general fitness board and people were all pissed off about their crappy run times and being self defeated by it, I could write a blog about how that is not a good thing and preach that the whole world should just accept their crappy run times and get on with it already. If, however, two people who are competitive running athletes start talking about their crappy run times, then the whole point of my blog about "just accept it" really isn't valid since increasing run times is the very essence of their sport.
Your blog is about a bodybuilder talking about another bodybuilder. Both competitive athletes (different levels but still athletes and competitive). Doesn't make sense to build a sermon around it. That said, for general fitness it does work and I can get what you do mean so all is good.
BTW: Wendy, I don't post to your log anymore but I do read it and that was a FUCKING AWESOME run time that you posted!!! I am totally jacked for you and cheering you on to the Boston. (this post reminded me of your runtime.)
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
I think this just goes to show that both you and fengshway both have worked very hard on your body image. You so you can take the critique and her so she just brushes it off. You guys don't go about it the same way but the you both get same result of self confidence no matter what which is exactly what I find amazing.
Exactly and both ways are obviously okay!
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Doesn't make sense to build a sermon around it.
and that was a FUCKING AWESOME run time that you posted!!! I am totally jacked for you and cheering you on to the Boston. (this post reminded me of your runtime.)
ha! thanks for the compliment about my running.
as for what makes "sense" and what doesn't, let's just leave that up to the individual reader to determine what makes "sense" for them. I have never thought of myself as a "preacher" delivering a "sermon", but I guess if positive, stable, healthy body image is the gospel, then I reckon I'm a preachin'. can I get a witness?
This is a crazy thought, but do you think Michelle Obama is moving the national conversation a bit? I remember when Terminator 2 came out, afterwards the fitness magazines were FULL of articles about getting Linda Hamilton's arms. Now everyone seems to want Michelle Obama's arms. In fact I haven't heard one comment about Michelle Obama looking too bulky or masculine - I've only seen very positive commentary about her, about wanting to look like her. What do you think?
BTW does anybody have any idea what kind of training plan MObama uses, or what trainer? Just curious!
I DID see an article bashing Michelle for having too muscular arms, but can't locate it. I, of course, thought it was utterly ridiculous. She looks great. About time we had a fit and strong first lady.
Then again I know lots of guys that don't workout at all and have a very different opinion then I do (I think they just don't like appearing weaker)
The amount of muscle on a female imo has very little to do with perceived appearance by males unless in the 2% extreme on each end. My girlfriend I suppose is muscular for a girl, but if she wore a jacket its not like you would really know she lifted weights (and she was ranked in the top 20 in the world, regardless of federation, for the deadlift last year in her weight class).
At one point my girlfriend was convinced she was going to get to muscular. Now as shes prepping for a figure contest - she feels like she has to bring up some areas to be more competitive. It all depends where your reference point is.
Guys have the same problem too, some people would not want to be as big as me and would consider me "to bulky". Ive yet to see the guy who actually put on to much muscle for his personal liking, as the amount of work it takes is clearly more then someone would give who did not have muscle as their goal.
My girlfriend I suppose is muscular for a girl, but if she wore a jacket its not like you would really know she lifted weights
Exactly. Put clothes on most any fit and muscular woman and she looks so much slimmer than the average (overweight) woman out there.
I'm often surprised when at the gym I see women come in for a lunch time workout in a business suit, and the moment the gym clothes are on, they are muscular. Yet in the suit they appear so slim.
The waif look is sooooo....damit it is so weird! I was just on another board where a woman was complaining that her arms had gotten muscular because of doing her hair. I kid you not. I looked at her pic expecting to see a heavyish woman with fat over muscle. Instead I see a girl who has arms as big around as pencils. Despite her complaints I think she was fishing for compliments. I really had to bite my tongue and NOT say what I was really thinking. Spaghetti is a food not a body type.
The waif look is sooooo....damit it is so weird! I was just on another board where a woman was complaining that her arms had gotten muscular because of doing her hair. I kid you not. I looked at her pic expecting to see a heavyish woman with fat over muscle. Instead I see a girl who has arms as big around as pencils. Despite her complaints I think she was fishing for compliments. I really had to bite my tongue and NOT say what I was really thinking. Spaghetti is a food not a body type.
Yeah, it's about time people started respecting each other's choices for their own bodies and tolerate differences! Except when we make fun of them, in which case it's okay.
Was wondering.. what is the difference between a figure athlete and a fitness athlete, if any?
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Vegetarian, consumer of large quantities of Quark cheese
Working my way from 76.4 to 58 kg (168 - 127.6 lbs)
Lifting a bit, schedule varies. Barbell weight: 22kg/48.4#
Jane hits the nail on the head and I will add that with respect to appearance. Fitness competitors are generally more muscled/bulky than figure competitors as they are also pretty amazing athletes. They are muscled more like bbers but on the stage they have a lot more bf% than BBers. I actually enjoy the fitness classes.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
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