The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
I started eating clean, and at a 500 cal deficit (2700) about a month ago, after reading Leigh Peele's FLTS..
I've lost about 13 lbs since then..
I've made sure I've eaten at LEAST 1g of protein for every lbs of body weight, and that my carbs have been at least 160g..
I just got my bf calculated and my bf is 21.5%, down from 23% in March..
But my lean muscle mass has gone from 178 to 171 (still up from 163 in June 08, but...)..
So I've lost equal parts muscle and fat..
I've just started a different program, New Rules of Lifting (break in.. high rep, low weight), but before I was doing Starting Strength (more weight.. ALOT more weight, only 5 reps)..
I do that 3x a week..
For cardio I've been only doing low intensity walks on my off days..
I think I'm going to start doing intervals instead, though..
Anyways, you can check all this out in my journal, please and thanks!
my "muscle mass" percentages for the this month using my scale, which does bioimpedance: 25.3, 26.3, 25.4, 24.4, 26.5, 25.2, 25.0, 24.0, 24.9, 24.5, 24.8, 24.4, 25.2, 24.2…
those 3 percentage points of fluctuation represent about 5 pounds of supposed muscle mass.
By the way… you really are WAAAY overthinking most of this shit, you know that?
LBM is not 100% equivalent to "muscle" - lean is everything that isn't fat - including water, blood, glycogen etc.
So if you dropped water weight - it looks like LBM on any electronic device -
and, as Aoife says, you can't trust most electronic measurements to be that accurate because as your water fluctuates each day the measurement will change
Points for you...
* Your BF% is pretty high to be able to measure bf with any sort of accuracy. It's hard to get consistent measurements on lean people too but it gets harder and harder as the bf% goes up so you probably don't have the right numbers anyway.
* If fat loss is your goal than accept that you will lose SOME muscle. A 50/50 loss is not uncommon given the available ways to measure bf%.
* Don't be a program/goal jumper. You seem conflicted so get focused. On one hand you are looking to drop faster (referring to the Warp Speed thread) yet here you don't want to lose muscle. If you want to preserve muscle then your objective of fat loss may have to be slowed not made quicker. Pick what you want to do and go for it.
*Give it time... This one is hard for all of us. We all want it tomorrow, but these goals take time. Deal with that and wait it out. I agree that you are WAAAAY overthinking this shit.
Given that you cannot accurately measure bf% it is best not to use that as a gauge. Instead look towards how your workouts are going. If you can gain strength in the gym while you are in a defecit you are a rock star. If you maintain you are not losing a lot of muscle. Workout hard in the gym and keep a log of the weights you are lifting so you can measure your strength. That is the best gauge of muscle lost or not.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
If you can gain strength in the gym while you are in a defecit you are a rock star. If you maintain you are not losing a lot of muscle. Workout hard in the gym and keep a log of the weights you are lifting so you can measure your strength. That is the best gauge of muscle lost or not.
on that point - you need to be on a program and comparing on a program where progress can be seen.
you CANNOT take your SS 3x5 squat number, do a different type of routine (like 3x15 for a contrasting example) for 3-4 weeks and then go back and see if you can do the same 3x5 squat number. But see instead if you are getting stronger or staying even on your 3x15s. or 3x8s. or whatever is in the program you are doing.
Well, considering there's been studies done with people (inc men) on a very low cal diet (like sub 1K) but with lifting and protein, and it was found they didn't lose much muscle, I really don't think you have that much to worry about.
Calipers.. Same person, same time of day (2h. after breakfast before WO)..
Well, I've been UNDERthinking it for too long now..
I want to get the bull by the horns, already..
Oh....... LOL
Hmmm..
So maybe I'll do some 3100-3200 cal. re-feeds every 12 days or so, see what happens..
Well, I do do that, and I keep progressing, so, I should be alright?
If you are progressing in the gym (See Lisa's post on this btw) then you are not dumping a bunch of LBM. Just keep to your diet and drop fat. When you stop progressing then worry about your plan.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
First off, Kudos on the progress you have made. That is what you should focus on more. You are making progress. Aofie said you are over thinking, and I would play sematics and say there is nothing wrong with over thinking it is the over analysing when you have poor data to work with (BF measurements that are possible inaccurate).
So if you are losing weight, and your lifting numbers on the same kind of routine are going up, you are probably not losing muscle (or a great amount). Since you are new to lifting you can possibly gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Even if you do lose some muscle, you are more importantly losing BF.
Use BF for LONG TERM trends not "day to day" or "week to week" comparisons. Hey take a big dump and watch you BF go down - seriously there are too many things that will affect the "day to day" or "week to week" measurements (BF and Weight) .
1) Look in the mirror, 2) try on your "fattie" clothes and see how big they are, and 3) look at your lifting numbers going up. If these three indicators are good, then keep at it.
Cheers
Peter
PS
I have a "fattie" belt. I was in New York and dropped into an Armani shop and too my great shame could not buy any pants- I was too fat (at about 5'7", 35 inch waist) I bought the only thing I could, a belt, buckled on the second to biggest hole! Yikes. I am actually wearing the same belt (my wife says throw it out already it looks ridiculous). IT was a 5-hole belt, and I have punched three holes in it. I have to fold it back under because it reaches my hip. Now I have "porked up" a bit (so I am using the 2nd to smallest hole (about 31.5") but when I am leaner, I weer it at the smallest hole around 29.5 ish.
This belt has beeb a great "state of the nation" gauge for me.
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Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
are you taking any supplements like a BCAA supplement, PWO shakes and creatine?
I have some ICE on order, and I recently started taking Creatine again.. I do have various PWO shakes within 15 min or so of my WO..
Quote:
Use BF for LONG TERM trends not "day to day" or "week to week" comparisons.
Thanks for the comments, Diamond Pete..
Well, not to split hairs, but it's weight I'm looking at daily, not BF (once every 3-4 months)..
I'll try to think more long term..
But do you think I should keep on eating at a deficit, trying to get my fat down to 15% or so, muscle loss be damned, THEN start eating for mass again, hopefully acquiring less fat on the way, now that I have my nutrition dialed in?
Or should I start eating at maintenance and keep lifting heavy and doing HIIT on my off days, trusting in a ramped up metabolism to take care of the body fat?
Or should I start eating at maintenance and keep lifting heavy and doing HIIT on my off days, trusting in a ramped up metabolism to take care of the body fat?
Doug I think you keep missing some big pieces to the puzzle.
If you are eating at maintenace, then you aren't in a deficit. If you aren't in a deficit you can do all the HIIT and lifts you want but the fat isn't going to come off.
Stick to good protein intake, lift heavy, and if you want to lose fat cut the calories, if not then don't. That is the secret, seriously.
I think Doug is thinking EXACTLY what I was thinking after reading NROL.
It seems to imply that you can ramp up your RMR by eating a lot and working out a lot which would mean that over time you would be at a decifit by keeping your intake the same.
I'm inclined to agree (the proof is in the pudding..
I AM getting the weight off..
Question is, am I losing too much muscle as well?
Also, am I doing myself a disservice by not jumping in with both feet with the PN and NROL philosophy that I should trust in flux and just ramp up the activity level (NEAT)..
Quote:
It seems to imply that you can ramp up your RMR by eating a lot and working out a lot which would mean that over time you would be at a decifit by keeping your intake the same.
However, this does not seem to be the case.
That's it in a nutshell..
But it IS working for alot of people, Berardi first and foremost..
And I can't say it won't or isn't working for me if I don't do it 100% rather than a bit of this, bit o' that..
But it's not like I COULDN'T be compliant and still eat at a deficit..
It would just mean I was jumping the gun on "individualization"..
It states in the PN book very clearly that if something isn't working (fat loss, muscle gain) you're inclined to tweak after as little as 2 weeks..
I'm inclined to agree (the proof is in the pudding..
I AM getting the weight off..
Question is, am I losing too much muscle as well?
Also, am I doing myself a disservice by not jumping in with both feet with the PN and NROL philosophy that I should trust in flux and just ramp up the activity level (NEAT)..
That's it in a nutshell..
But it IS working for alot of people, Berardi first and foremost..
And I can't say it won't or isn't working for me if I don't do it 100% rather than a bit of this, bit o' that..
But it's not like I COULDN'T be compliant and still eat at a deficit..
It would just mean I was jumping the gun on "individualization"..
It states in the PN book very clearly that if something isn't working (fat loss, muscle gain) you're inclined to tweak after as little as 2 weeks..
Hey Doug, its mandy0678 from the PN forum! Found you here too!
It seems to me that the problem is the fat loss is too slow using the Berardi G-flux concept, maybe because you are overestimating your caloric burn during your workouts. You probably need to eat at a deficit, but a mild one so not to impact your rate of lbm losses too much, while keeping with your supplements too.
Have you tried the zig zag dieting concepts?
The Zig-Zag Approach In Action
To Increase Total bodyweight By Losing Fat And Gaining Muscle:
For 4 to 5 days each week (including your training days), add two calories per pound of lean bodyweight to your normal daily caloric intake. Spread these added calories among five meals per day. For example, a 170-pound person who is around 12% body fat should add approximately 300 calories per day to his or her diet. Over five meals, that equals a 60-calorie increase per meal on the average. Then, on the remaining 2 to 3 days each week (including off-days or light training days), reduce your caloric intake by two calories per pound of lean bodyweight. Reduce each of your five meals per day according to rules above. For example, a 170-pound person who is around 12% body fat should subtract approximately 300 calories per day from his or her diet; over five meals, that equals a 60-calorie decrease per meal on the average. Do not forget to adjust your calories upward monthly to reflect the new caloric needs of your increased muscle mass.
To Decrease Total bodyweight By Losing Fat And Gaining Muscle:
For 4 to 5 days each week (especially on off-days and light-training days), reduce your caloric intake by two calories per pound of lean bodyweight as described above. Then, on the remaining 2 to 3 days each week (including heavy-training days), add two calories per pound of lean bodyweight to your normal daily caloric intake. Do not forget to adjust your calories upward monthly to reflect the new caloric needs of your increased muscle mass.
To Stay The Same Total bodyweight But Lose Fat And Gain Muscle:
For 3 to 4 days each week, especially on off-days or light-training days, reduce your caloric intake, and increase your caloric intake for the other 3 or 4 days each week (especially on heavy training days) by two calories per pound of lean bodyweight as described above. Do not forget to adjust your calories upward monthly to reflect the new caloric needs of your increased muscle mass.
By following an eating schedule like this, you will store less fat while providing carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins and minerals to your body tissues as they need them. These guidelines are the most effective approach for increasing muscle mass and reducing body fat.
It seems to me that the problem is the fat loss is too slow using the Berardi G-flux concept, maybe because you are overestimating your caloric burn during your workouts.
Too SLOW?
And here I thought it was too fats.. LOL
I COULD be over estimating..
I do 3x a week lifting, but my NEAT and cardio has been pretty sub par..
Really need to light a fire under myself..
This zig zag thing sounds alot like what I was already trying (see my blog here, and go back a few weeks)..
I found after about 2 weeks that eating 2900-3100 cals on my WO days (maintenence), and at 2700 on my off days (500 cal deficit) I was staying at the same weight.. My fat loss slowed..
But maybe I didn't give it enough time..
My plan for now is I'm going to try being 90% PN complient for the next 3-4 weeks, eating at a defecit with some higher cal days every 8 days or so..
I do 3x a week lifting, but my NEAT and cardio has been pretty sub par..
Really need to light a fire under myself..
This zig zag thing sounds alot like what I was already trying (see my blog here, and go back a few weeks)..
I found after about 2 weeks that eating 2900-3100 cals on my WO days (maintenence), and at 2700 on my off days (500 cal deficit) I was staying at the same weight.. My fat loss slowed..
But maybe I didn't give it enough time..
My plan for now is I'm going to try being 90% PN complient for the next 3-4 weeks, eating at a defecit with some higher cal days every 8 days or so..
And see what happens..
Have you seen this? It talks about how you should be patient during this process.
"Folks who do have problems with water retention tend to have stalls and whooshes, those who don’t show nice consistent visual changes."
Thank you so much for posting this. This is the end of my 3rd week of Leigh's OPT for Fatloss and I have no scale loss, although my GWF deficit would indicate a 3.5 lb loss. It was VERY VERY encouraging to read the link. I had again begun to get discouraged, and what happens then is that I easily can lose control of my food limits.
The next OPT week is low calorie and very high protein at a 50%protein, 35%fat, 25%carb ratio and in order to hit those macros, my carbs will have to be low glycemic vegies and some little fruit. Maybe that will cause a whoosh! I think I'll be really careful to hit those macros.
Numbers are definitely down, as the rep numbers are triple what I was doing..
Hey doug, I was too lazy to read and understand the journal. But just keep an eye on your performance numbers. If you numbers are going UP while losing weight, then don't worry in the least.
Switching to a high rep scheme makes things comparisons non useful, though.
Why am I losing so much muscle?? :(
- seriously there are too many things that will affect the "day to day" or "week to week" measurements (BF and Weight) .
Linear Mode
