body fat percentage visual signs & at what point are muscles visible?

[CloveApple]

Two questions:
First, at what approximate body fat percentage can you generally start to perceive muscle in a female? (Since abs seem to show up last let's leave them out of it.) And I assume there would be a range of answers depending on if the person had a little bit or a lot of muscle under any fat.

And second, what are some common visual signs that you are in roughly a certain bodyfat percentage range?
Say about 35% in a female?
30%?
25%?
20%?
15%

(I chose differences 5% arbitrarily. If some other amount makes more sense when describing the visual clues you'd see, please go with it. )

Thanks.

[Kat2002]

Leigh made a video that answers the same question using pictures:

http://avidityfitness.net/2008/08/21...you-calculate/

This thread discusses bf% also:

Leigh: Can you post some pics

[CloveApple]

Thanks Kat. Much appreciated.

I suspect the video you linked to might answer parts of my questions. I did watch it back when it was first posted, but can't seem to get it to play any more. (Tried about 10 times before giving up for now.)

I did re-read the thread you linked to before asking my qustions but could only find hints at what I was hoping for. (There are comments in the thread that part way answered what I am looking for such as Jill's comment "So lucky to have definition in the legs at 27%!!!!" which tells me that is rare. Or Leigh's comment " Personally when I hit the 30% zone I feel there starts to be a higher tricep/chest change.")

When I next get a chance to borrow a friend's computer I'll check out the video again and hopefully it will help.

[kfisherx]

The more I think about this thread and descriptors I might use for the percentages, the more I think you need to go through it for yourself to really know. Reason is that we look different at the same bf% based on how we might hold our fat. There are some very general or vague things that are perhaps true but even those things cannot be properly described in word format such as you are asking to do here. It would be like me trying to describe to you what a bright sound is. I could do that with some degree of correctness for my own experience and my own ears but how you translate that has to be an internal process. I have gone down to around 11% bf and back up to 20%ish in the past year and I feel like just now I am begining to comprehend what these percentages mean to my body. It will be serveral years before I can be more confident with these estimates though.

[maggieandmommy]

I think Karla is right; 20% on one person might look completely different on another person with a different frame and fat distribution. Leigh's body fat videos do give a good idea of what a different range of body fat percentage might look like on you. I hope you can get the videos to work!

[Kat2002]

To summarize some of the examples that were in the video (in case you still can't get to it) were (if I remember correctly):

>12% Bodybuilding competitor, visible cuts and striations
15% Fitness model, visible cuts
18% "Victoria Secret's model" body
21% Fit celebrity
25% Not sure how Leigh described this but I remember it just looking like a fit woman...not someone that most people would think that they "need" to lose weight
30% curvier
35%+ excess fat and from then on it gets harder to measure visually..

And then, like the others said, these are just generalizations and the other thread is a good example of how different bf% can look completely different on someone with more lean body mass.