The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
Ok, so I first have to say where this is coming from and give credit where it really is due - although others might not agree since they won't know him....my husband He has asked me to give him a chance since he works out and thinks he knows what's best for me. He really DOES know what HE'S doing, but I have yet to trust him with me.
I've posted before regarding my goals and such, and as much as I should probably repeat, I'm sure most of you don't want to read it all over again
However, I do have a simple (I think) question for you that I would really like your feedback on. My husband and I are working out together - not necessarily my first option since we have different goals in mind, but my ways weren't getting me to where I would like to be, so it can't hurt to try his "way for 6 weeks", as he says.
But I feel like our workouts are "contradictory"?? for better lack of a word? I'd really like your feedback. By the way, he is a lean, but strong and solid machine. He does know what he's doing, but he IS a guy (sorry guys). But maybe that's the way I need to be thinking, as the NRFLFW states as well....hmm.... ok enough gabbering, here it is.
My goals (QUICK rundown): Currently 120lbs - 21%bf (unhealthily -overtrained and undernourished used to be 114 -18%), pushing my size 6's. STRIVING for size 4(whatever weight), solid definition, lean and mean but trimmer in size
Monday/Wednesday/Friday -- heavy lifting (Start heavy, strip weight, 4 sets right after one another) multijoint exercises
Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday -- cardio split (1mi run, weights 1 min on/30sec off)
Overall: hit same body parts 2x a week
Example: Monday - Chest/Triceps
1) Weighted Press -- 1st set: 8x, strip, 2nd set: 6x, strip, 3rd set 4x, strip, 4th set 4x (each of the times depends on failure point and performed one right after the other)
2) Incline Press -- Same explanation as above
3) Military Press DB -- Same as above
4) Tricep Extensions cable pull downs -- Same as above
5) Abs - 3 exercises, 20 reps, 3 rounds
Example: Tuesday - Cardio Split
1) 1 mile hard as possible (7:49min) with air sits (1 min on/30sec off, repeate until 7 min is up)
2) 1 mile hard as possible (7:47min) with walking lunges (same as above)
3) 1 mile hard as possible (7:45min) with calf raises (same as above)
Wednesday - had a meeting - off
Thursday (today) - I did both today since yesterday I had off and I can't workout on Sunday
1) Same idea for cardio (done between 3:30pm-4:30pm) but in between miles did pushups, decline flies, abs
2) Heavy lifting (tonight 8-9pm) Back: pullups, single db rows, Bicep curls, shrugs
My goal is to get SMALLER - not bigger. Should I really be sticking to this??? I figure, what really can 6 weeks hurt and my ways weren't working?? But....I just don't feel right. Clothes are obviously tighter and not getting looser, but they weren't before either
And still not sure about the 1500-1600 cals with 40%protein, 40%carb, and 20% fat is right
Still so confused and he just tells me that I need to be patient and give it time. But i don't want to be making a mistake in the variables and WASTING this time
Sorry so long...I can't seem to keep these short. Thanks for puting up with me!
However, I do have a simple (I think) question for you that I would really like your feedback on. My husband and I are working out together - not necessarily my first option since we have different goals in mind, but my ways weren't getting me to where I would like to be, so it can't hurt to try his "way for 6 weeks", as he says.
Yes it can.
Further, the logic is flawed; just because your approach "isn't working" doesn't mean his is better.
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But I feel like our workouts are "contradictory"?? for better lack of a word? I'd really like your feedback. By the way, he is a lean, but strong and solid machine. He does know what he's doing, but he IS a guy (sorry guys). But maybe that's the way I need to be thinking, as the NRFLFW states as well....hmm.... ok enough gabbering, here it is.
Lean strong and solid doesn't mean that your advice is 100% infallible and applicable to all groups without question.
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Bro-training snipped
My goal is to get SMALLER - not bigger. Should I really be sticking to this??? I figure, what really can 6 weeks hurt and my ways weren't working?? But....I just don't feel right. Clothes are obviously tighter and not getting looser, but they weren't before either
I wouldn't. That routine might be acceptable on a calorie surplus - though as with most Bro-split routines it's got a lot of redundancy and excessive volume - but on a diet, no.
Quote:
And still not sure about the 1500-1600 cals with 40%protein, 40%carb, and 20% fat is right
Still so confused and he just tells me that I need to be patient and give it time. But i don't want to be making a mistake in the variables and WASTING this time
Sorry so long...I can't seem to keep these short. Thanks for puting up with me!
I could also throw out some questions about your goals and how realistic you are about them; any time I see a female chasing a given weight or clothes size I'm always curious as to whether or not it's realistic.
Ideally the goal would relate to how you look in the mirror, not some more or less arbitrary number.
RE: diet, that's 12.5kcal/lb (assumign 1500 and 120lbs BW) which is probably a bit high for losing fat (but lower than you'd want for that Bro-workout routine).
40% protein/carb gives you 150g of each and around 30g of fat. Nothing terribly off about those numbers if it works, I guess; you're getting enough protein at any rate. You might find that a more sane workout routine (both weights and cardio) would yield better results, however.
Assuming your body can get realistically smaller.
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Regarding calories, I am sure of them - weighing instead of measuring. However, at times the overall cals can be a little lower.
I did forget to add that I'm 5'3" and 120lbs. I am very realistic with my goals and feel like there shouldn't be a reason why i can't get lean and have been. I'm 28, have been working out since I was 18, but obviously my body has changed since "puberty" and having 2 babies. I don't look out of shape now, I'm not, but I don't look like I want to. My upper body is getting more defined (and bigger - not exactly sure how I feel about that, but...) but not my lower body. I hold my weight in my butt and thighs and have never loved them. I know genetics take a big role, but I don't see why I can't make them the best they can be -- AND smaller.
I'm not trying to chase a number but I do know that a size 4 is not unrealistic for myself.
In the past - taking an "easier" approach also didn't get me the results I am looking for. After 4 months and not seeing an ounce of change, I thought I would do some things differently....
I can't seems to figure out what I've been doing wrong - after all these years
Leigh - do you "sell" your one-on-one services - working with individual clients? I'm not saying I'm "unique" - I just figure myself out
I have been trying to lose fat for months (really years) by doing more, more, more. I didn't lose when I trained and rode a bicycle century. I didn't lose with P90X. I haven't lost with exercising in one form or another for an average of 9 hours per week.
Finally, I have come across Leigh Peele and other like-minded gurus (is that the term?). My current approach of eating less AND moving less has worked better and faster than anything else I have ever tried. I don't know if it's just because I got too hungry from exercising and always fell off my diet or something else. For the first time ever, I feel I have come upon a method for fat loss that should work whenever the need arises in the future. It's not easy. I hate being hungry and not being able to eat all my favorite food, but hey, it works and it's pretty fast so I am all in. The Gowear Fit has been a big help at monitoring my activity, too.
Last edited by PopcornSally : 03-20-2009 at 04:27 PM.
Reason: forgot to add last sentence
MRowe,
I know exactly where you are coming from, and although I havent seen pics of you, I think I can relate as far as body fat storage goes. Always had a bigger lower, I used to joke that they belong to two different people.
Ive been at this for years. Could never get my body where i want. I dont know if it was due to too much exercise, diet fatigue, emotional eating, or just not being on the right diet.
Ive been carb cycling recently. I never wanted to try it before becasue I was always afraid of the low days being unbearably low (20% carbs or 60g). I also always felt that the I would blow up on the high days and binge eat. This is due to a bad experience with the Atkins diet many years ago. BTW, I am 30 years old and 135lbs. Bodyfat reading was 21% last time I got it checked. Have had 1 child, and yes, body has changed a bit.
Anyway, I also am lifting heavier than ever in the weight room, and cut back on cardio. My entire philosophy has changed regarding training, and less is more seems to be ideal.
So, due to these new things Ive incorporated, I am seeing some nice changes in my body. Its too early to tell, but I think Ive nailed the formula. Carb cycling, heavy lifting, less cardio, more resting. Ive also cut out all the refeeding that has always been an excuse to binge. Now that I am in the "grind", all I need is time to really stick to this, and I really belive I am on the path to the body I want. My legs havent looked this good, ever. Too many women fear getting "bulky" and this just doesnt happen
5'3 @ 120 and a real 21% is not going to be out of shape or overweight by any stretch of imagination.
So options are 1) that BF% is way off (perhaps most likely) 2) you've got a warped body image and are thus setting unrealistic goals or 3) you have a really bad fat-storage pattern
If it's 1 or 2 then it's no wonder you're not budging. Pushing the body too much past setpoint requires more than "eat less food".
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Once you reach the body's setpoint you start dealign with a lot of feedback loops. What's happened is that leptin has effectively crashed (due to a reduction in bodyfat), and this will start causing a general metabolic down-regulation. Thyroid levels drop, hunger increases, fat becomes easier to store, etc.
Most folks just want to suck it up and starve throguh it, but that doesn't always work. So we have periodic refeeds to help mitigate some of those issues. It's nto a permanent fix but it does help reset some of the problems (physically and mentally).
There's also the issue of needing more calorie-burning exercise to affect partitioning in a positive way, which is why you tend to see cardio coming into it.
It's the difference between getting "not fat" and getting "exceptionally lean", and it's going to vary for everyone.
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Once you reach the body's setpoint you start dealign with a lot of feedback loops. What's happened is that leptin has effectively crashed (due to a reduction in bodyfat), and this will start causing a general metabolic down-regulation. Thyroid levels drop, hunger increases, fat becomes easier to store, etc.
Most folks just want to suck it up and starve throguh it, but that doesn't always work. So we have periodic refeeds to help mitigate some of those issues. It's nto a permanent fix but it does help reset some of the problems (physically and mentally).
There's also the issue of needing more calorie-burning exercise to affect partitioning in a positive way, which is why you tend to see cardio coming into it.
It's the difference between getting "not fat" and getting "exceptionally lean", and it's going to vary for everyone.
How do you know you have reached this point? Is there a certain limit to dieting down? Would periodic carbing up and/or eating at maintanence solve the problems, or would it have to be a full refeed?
Ive read alot of Lyle McDonald's stuff, but am still not certain how to refeed without gaining fat or losing momentum. So I just dont do them.
You'll ahve reached that point when dieting is torture. I don't just mean LOL I WANT THAT PIZZA but "I'll cut off your face to lick that cupcake". Rough estimate for chicks is 18-20%, and the real 18-20% not "my trainer said" or "I decided I'm" (which is very in-shape for a woman).
Periodic carb-up and eating at maintenance = refeed so I'm not sure what you're getting at with "full refeed".
Refeed w/o gaining fat = you've dieted w/ such a deficit or to such a leanness that you need it
2-5g/kg of carbs, limit fat intake
If you're not lean enough and/or dieting hard enough to need them they won't have the same effect
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Thank you everyone - really. I've been trying to figure this out for what seems like forever. I just want to be on the right track, stick to it, and get the body I feel I've been striving for too long -- and it's not an unrealistic goal...I just want to look as amazing as I can get my body to look.
I just figure myself out oops - I meant to say I just CAN'T figure myself out
Thank you PopcornSally - I need to keep reading more and see if I too can figure this whole thing out. I know the do more, eat less hasn't worked for me in the past, but I guess I just don't know where the line is drawn. I have a hard time knowing when enough is enough, since I just tell myself to "suck-it-up". Hmmm...
I know exactly where you are coming from, and although I havent seen pics of you, I think I can relate as far as body fat storage goes. Always had a bigger lower, I used to joke that they belong to two different people. -- Ha I used to say like I felt like 2 types of dogs (why I chose dogs, I do not know...) Poodle on top, Bulldog on bottom. I totally feel like 2 different people and I feel like my body responds so different from the halves too, but that's not right.
So, due to these new things Ive incorporated, I am seeing some nice changes in my body -- if you don't mind me asking, what changes have you seen and how long have you been working hard with these new changes? . Its too early to tell, but I think Ive nailed the formula. Carb cycling, I, too was thinking of this. I had a trainer (who I do value her info for MANY reasons) say that some people lose body fat on more carbs while others on more fat? I've been trying the increased carbs side (40-50% carbs) for a few weeks now and have been seeing the same unhappy trend -- size/weight going up...not in relation to amount of muscle (too fast). heavy lifting, less cardio, more resting. Ive also cut out all the refeeding that has always been an excuse to binge. Now that I am in the "grind", all I need is time to really stick to this, and I really belive I am on the path to the body I want. My legs havent looked this good, ever. Too many women fear getting "bulky" and this just doesnt happen -- do you keep a journal or would you mind sharing what your eating or workouts look like. I would really like to be able to talk about your suggestions
5'3 @ 120 and a real 21% is not going to be out of shape or overweight by any stretch of imagination. -- I didn't say i was "out of shape" Just not the shape I want to be in. i want to be beyond the "average" in shape gym goer - I don't think there's anything wrong with that
If it's 1 or 2 then it's no wonder you're not budging. Pushing the body too much past setpoint requires more than "eat less food". -- and thus what I'm trying to figure out - the formula for my goals. I definitely don't attack just the "eat less food" side of things and aren't even hungry at 1400-1600 cals -- hence why I'm questioning if I'm eating enough?? Past history has shown me that undereating and overcardio time hasn't proved to be the right formula overall...trying to find what is
5'3 @ 120 and a real 21% is not going to be out of shape or overweight by any stretch of imagination. -- I didn't say i was "out of shape" Just not the shape I want to be in. i want to be beyond the "average" in shape gym goer - I don't think there's anything wrong with that
If it's 1 or 2 then it's no wonder you're not budging. Pushing the body too much past setpoint requires more than "eat less food". -- and thus what I'm trying to figure out - the formula for my goals. I definitely don't attack just the "eat less food" side of things and aren't even hungry at 1400-1600 cals -- hence why I'm questioning if I'm eating enough?? Past history has shown me that undereating and overcardio time hasn't proved to be the right formula overall...trying to find what is
5'3 and 120 can still have some fat to give, especially if your muscle mass isn't high. I am curious, how did you gain your BF readings? What has been your history weight wise?
Also, before things get too complicated, what do you do in a day, what is your life like, what has been your training history? Training for most women is a very broad term.
Whenever someone says they are having a harder time losing weight than before it usually means either a) they slowed down b) they are more bored/lifestyle not as happy and are eating more c) had children/hormones wacky
So figure out the answer to the simple questions first. What are your calories, are you sure they are what you think they are, how much are you moving, etc.
5'3 @ 120 and a real 21% is not going to be out of shape or overweight by any stretch of imagination. -- I didn't say i was "out of shape" Just not the shape I want to be in. i want to be beyond the "average" in shape gym goer - I don't think there's anything wrong with that
Nothing wrong with it at all, just pointing it out so you realize that getting to a point of exceptional leanness is somethign that requires a little more effort on the diet/exercise side of things than just being "not-fat".
It can also require some sacrifices and an approach that may not be optimal from a health or even general fitness standpoint.
Quote:
If it's 1 or 2 then it's no wonder you're not budging. Pushing the body too much past setpoint requires more than "eat less food". -- and thus what I'm trying to figure out - the formula for my goals. I definitely don't attack just the "eat less food" side of things and aren't even hungry at 1400-1600 cals -- hence why I'm questioning if I'm eating enough?? Past history has shown me that undereating and overcardio time hasn't proved to be the right formula overall...trying to find what is
From what you've reported, and basing that only on your words since I've not seen a pic, it sounds like you've got a typical female stubborn fat pattern going on. You're lean/ripped up top but still very pudgy on the hips and thighs.
Again assumign this is true (the bodyfat level and stubborn fat pattern) then you're probably going to have to do more than just running your ass off and dieting with a straight deficit.
Of course the Bro-workout from the original post likely isn't going to be much help either.
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You'll ahve reached that point when dieting is torture. I don't just mean LOL I WANT THAT PIZZA but "I'll cut off your face to lick that cupcake". Rough estimate for chicks is 18-20%, and the real 18-20% not "my trainer said" or "I decided I'm" (which is very in-shape for a woman).
Periodic carb-up and eating at maintenance = refeed so I'm not sure what you're getting at with "full refeed".
Refeed w/o gaining fat = you've dieted w/ such a deficit or to such a leanness that you need it
2-5g/kg of carbs, limit fat intake
If you're not lean enough and/or dieting hard enough to need them they won't have the same effect
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerManDL
Nothing wrong with it at all, just pointing it out so you realize that getting to a point of exceptional leanness is somethign that requires a little more effort on the diet/exercise side of things than just being "not-fat".
It can also require some sacrifices and an approach that may not be optimal from a health or even general fitness standpoint.
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From what you've reported, and basing that only on your words since I've not seen a pic, it sounds like you've got a typical female stubborn fat pattern going on. You're lean/ripped up top but still very pudgy on the hips and thighs.
Again assumign this is true (the bodyfat level and stubborn fat pattern) then you're probably going to have to do more than just running your ass off and dieting with a straight deficit.
Of course the Bro-workout from the original post likely isn't going to be much help either.
Matt, this is all a helpful read.
Also, will you body always fight to return to that setpoint? I ask because for 2.5 years, with effort, I had maintained 57.5-58.5kg and around 16%BF. I did Metrepair and ended up at 62kg and around 19/20%BF and I have been trying to cut for the past 8 weks and have lost around 1kg (wt just bouncing around between 61 and 61.5kg). My GWF has been giving me a 5000+ deficit per week, even if this is off a bit, my weight just doesn't want to drop. QUESTION is how long would you have to maintain a lower weight to actually lower your setpoint? Will my body always want to creep back up to 61+kg?
Also, will you body always fight to return to that setpoint? I ask because for 2.5 years, with effort, I had maintained 57.5-58.5kg and around 16%BF. I did Metrepair and ended up at 62kg and around 19/20%BF and I have been trying to cut for the past 8 weks and have lost around 1kg (wt just bouncing around between 61 and 61.5kg). My GWF has been giving me a 5000+ deficit per week, even if this is off a bit, my weight just doesn't want to drop. QUESTION is how long would you have to maintain a lower weight to actually lower your setpoint? Will my body always want to creep back up to 61+kg?
So far as I've ever seen/read, the setpoint doesn't really go down. It can increase in obese people but last I heard it doesn't really drop.
Since the setpoint is effectively an equilibrium point for hormones (and thus neurological/psychological/beh avioral effects of said hormones), the body is indeed going to try and move you back towards it. It's all tied up w/ teh dopamine and leptin chemistry in teh brain.
Get enough leptin signal and everything will work properly (body composition will be stable). Dip below that (setpoint) and things start going wacky in an attempt to push you back above it (which includes all teh metabolic crap, increased appetite, etc).
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So far as I've ever seen/read, the setpoint doesn't really go down. It can increase in obese people but last I heard it doesn't really drop.
Since the setpoint is effectively an equilibrium point for hormones (and thus neurological/psychological/beh avioral effects of said hormones), the body is indeed going to try and move you back towards it. It's all tied up w/ teh dopamine and leptin chemistry in teh brain.
Get enough leptin signal and everything will work properly (body composition will be stable). Dip below that (setpoint) and things start going wacky in an attempt to push you back above it (which includes all teh metabolic crap, increased appetite, etc).
OK, so does this mean that women who manage to maintain at 15/.16% BF (which was/is my goal) simply have a lower set point than other women?
Damn, this is totally depressing (setpoint stuff), but its something I always knew b/c my body always bounces back to this point.
So is all this talk of "maintanence" once you get lead bs? I though if you got lean enough, you may gain some of it back, but can always maintain something manageable as long as you dont "let yourself go".....not true?
Periodic carb-up and eating at maintenance = refeed so I'm not sure what you're getting at with "full refeed".
Lyle McDonald says a full refeed you are withing 6g carbs/kg I believe, and eating WAAAYYY over maintanence. I need to double check, but I remember it was pretty high, like 400-600g carbs.
Since the setpoint is effectively an equilibrium point for hormones (and thus neurological/psychological/beh avioral effects of said hormones), the body is indeed going to try and move you back towards it. It's all tied up w/ teh dopamine and leptin chemistry in teh brain.
Get enough leptin signal and everything will work properly (body composition will be stable). Dip below that (setpoint) and things start going wacky in an attempt to push you back above it (which includes all teh metabolic crap, increased appetite, etc).
Is this why I maintain 126 effortlessly and without out tracking my food. Anytime I want to have a nice lean mid section I need to be under 120 but it means keeping close track of food.
No offense to Tom but lots of people in bodybuilding believe lots of things; it requires more than a statement of opinion for something to hold true.
I can verify more tomorrow, one way or another, but unless I see something in the literature to speak to the concept, I'm gonna have to leave that up in the air.
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Is this why I maintain 126 effortlessly and without out tracking my food. Anytime I want to have a nice lean mid section I need to be under 120 but it means keeping close track of food.
Ya probably.
I'm in a similar position. in my early 20s it was hard for me to budge out of the 160 lb range. I didn't lose weight easily and it was also "hard" to gain.
Once I blew up to 200+, my body seemed to reset itself to that weight. These days it's very hard to push myself away from 200, either up or down, and if I stop paying attention to diet, I'll default right back to it.
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I'm in my mid 40s and have never been past 130 but that was in my twenties and I was much stronger and had more muscle.
I read a lot of this post and I think women in general get an unrealistic idea of what our bodies should look like and get into some really unhealthy habits trying to acheive it.
OK, so does this mean that women who manage to maintain at 15/.16% BF (which was/is my goal) simply have a lower set point than other women?
Are there really women who maintain this low bodyfat year round? Even with figure competitors they have an on season/off season weight/bodyfat. I don't see 15/16% being reasonable (or healthy) to maintain year round for all but maybe .5% of the female population.
3sweeties I was thinking the exact same thing. I think many women see pictures of figure competitors or whatnot and think that is how I should look year round without realizing that even those women don't have that "stage ready look" most of the time.
Are there really women who maintain this low bodyfat year round? Even with figure competitors they have an on season/off season weight/bodyfat. I don't see 15/16% being reasonable (or healthy) to maintain year round for all but maybe .5% of the female population.
3sweeties I was thinking the exact same thing. I think many women see pictures of figure competitors or what not and think that is how I should look year round without realizing that even those women don't have that "stage ready look" most of the time.
I think probably around 17% is more realistic if you are involved in quite a lot of sports and have decent muscle mass. I know a few women like this just as I know a few men around 9-11% all year round, a few, not many. I suspect alot has to do with genetics too.
Matt, can your overall weight effect your setpoint? Meaning, is it all body fat %, total body fat mass, or weight?
I got down to "lean" and 185 pretty easily, but getting leaner is painfully slow and annoying. If I get this lean at 200 will that be easier to maintain? Easier to get leaner?
This is if you are thinking habits and lifestyle constitutes set point though. Is it chemical or is it environmental? How much of the two combine to lead you where you are at?
Set point can be another way of saying it I have to make a conscious effort where it used to be subconscious.
Set point is a good theory and it isn't that I don't believe in a natural homostasis but I have rarely see it be the problem that it gets claimed to be.
Most of the time the problem is getting lean enough in the first place and then dealing with the post dieting down effects on the body and keeping the habits you did while dieting down. Most people don't put the effort to move as much when they have lost the weight. They stop tracking as much, etc. More of this is psychological than it is physical. People also don't realize how much they need to lose, how much comes back on from regular eating, and how to not get there in the first place in a stupid fashion,
Is it set point or is it forcing your body in a lifestyle and habit that you don't really want to keep?
Confused or Misled?
He has asked me to give him a chance since he works out and thinks he knows what's best for me. He really DOES know what HE'S doing, but I have yet to trust him with me. 
But....I just don't feel right. Clothes are obviously tighter and not getting looser, but they weren't before either
but I do know that a size 4 is not unrealistic for myself.
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