RE: Rate of loss and lean body mass

[Leigh P.]

I don't want to get into a big drawn out thing about this. I also made a new post because I don't believe in going into peoples logs. I try not to read them as much as possible actually.

I am addressing it because now (just like I thought) I have people sending me PM's asking if they are going to lose LBM which was exactly the reason I questioned it in the first place.

Karla posted up an email between her and Alan about her rate of loss. It was removed (not by me for the record) just to make sure that it was okay to be posted publicly, that is all.

It stated as follows...

I think that it boils down to how dead-set you are on June 1st. I think that you can get dialed in with minimal muscle loss by then, but I'd prefer to stretch the deadline out till july or august. This is not to say you won't look awesome in June though! and yes, I understand the get-it-now desire being at odds with the slow/steady-wins-the-race route. But remember the fable about the turtle & the hare

The idea of losing 1.5 lbs per week without strength or muscle loss is entirely possible -- but catch this -- in the overweight & obese population. To give you an example, Tom has been losing an average of 1.75 lbs/week for the last 3 months. But, he started off at 229 lbs. I have an online client right now who was 18 lbs heavier 5 WEEKS AGO. But, he started off weighing 325 lbs. That's an average of 3.6 lbs per week. He's still hitting PRs as we speak. How bout them apples?

Now let's review Karla's case: 135 lbs, lean by "normal" standards, normal by "bro" standards. While still keeping their muscle, obese folks can lose 6-8% of their total bodyweight per month, moderately overweight folks can lose 4-6% of their total bodyweight per month, average folks 2-4%, lean folks 1-2%, very lean folks 0.5-1% per month (this is on page 2 of the November AARR). Since you're somewhere between the low end of average & the high end of lean, I'd say that a dedicated weight loss program aimed at keeping LBM should have you shedding about 2% of your bodyweight per month (2.7 lbs per month, 0.7 lbs per week) until you get into the heart of the lean category. The fact that your weight is still stable doesn't scare me, because it would take a simple adjustment to get that 0.7 lb/week drop going. The reason I was excited about your weight stability is because this means that your body has responded by actually gaining muscle despite the slight deficit. I know that this is very likely to be temporary, but it's a wave that I'd be interested in riding for the next few days (see: Monday).

PS - you can post this response (along with your question) on the boards if you think it will help people who may have similar confusion over the issue of rate of weight loss while keeping LBM. Or, you can keep it in your personal knowledge vault, that's cool too. Hopefully that clears things up, please let me know what other Q's you might have.

This is a personal email to Karla. Different people of different ages, different training backgrounds, etc can get away with different things.

I did not "freak out" about anything. Karla, if reading this, you have a history of passive aggressive behavior and bringing things up in round about ways to achieve your point. I merely skipped around the bush and asked you straight out if you posted it up to be like that, or if you just thought it was interesting. I made it very clear it could be the later, but I wanted it to be made clear due to your past behaovir and "obliviousness" in these situations.

That being said, you should be aware that every program a good trainer makes is different. You have to take into account their habits, their age, their history, etc. I think Alan's guideline is great, I think there is also room to bend on things he said too, that is me. All of us as trainers, the good one, try things out. We give more protein, more carbs, less calories, more, etc depending upon the situation. Some of it is gut, some of it is research, experiance as much as possible mixed with research is ideal.

So respect your trainer, respect your pace of loss, yes. Think that your guidelines should be the same as others or that others will lose LBM if they do something different? No. That was all I was going to say IF what you were saying is that your email was LBM rule for all.

For the record I really like Alan as a person and like his work. My issue is in no way with what he put. My issue was with the intent of the post itself in the first place, if that intent was to stir stuff up or try and make blanket statements.

Hopefully this will clear the air on that, and if you wish to discuss I am open to answering whatever I can about it or why I have the opinions I do about my protocols.

non-sarcastic emoticon smile>

[kfisherx]

Originally Posted by Leigh P.

I did not "freak out" about anything. Karla, if reading this, you have a history of passive aggressive behavior and bringing things up in round about ways to achieve your point. I merely skipped around the bush and asked you straight out if you posted it up to be like that, or if you just thought it was interesting. I made it very clear it could be the later, but I wanted it to be made clear due to your past behaovir and "obliviousness" in these situations.

First thanks for responding and bringing it back here on your terms. Second sorry for saying that you "sort of freaked out". I was actually highly interested in your comments but you and I have a history of miscommunicating and as such I had the thread moved then later removed because 1.) your tone indicated that you were not happy about the post and 2.) I did not want to disrespect your forum and 3.) I did not want to do anything at all that would put Alan or you at odds. It just seemed like the right thing to do at the time. I figured that I could still post it to my log though as I find it to be good reading and worthy of sharing.

Originally Posted by Leigh P.

That being said, you should be aware that every program a good trainer makes is different. You have to take into account their habits, their age, their history, etc. I think Alan's guideline is great, I think there is also room to bend on things he said too, that is me. All of us as trainers, the good one, try things out. We give more protein, more carbs, less calories, more, etc depending upon the situation. Some of it is gut, some of it is research, experiance as much as possible mixed with research is ideal.

So respect your trainer, respect your pace of loss, yes. Think that your guidelines should be the same as others or that others will lose LBM if they do something different? No. That was all I was going to say IF what you were saying is that your email was LBM rule for all.

For the record I really like Alan as a person and like his work. My issue is in no way with what he put. My issue was with the intent of the post itself in the first place, if that intent was to stir stuff up or try and make blanket statements.

Hopefully this will clear the air on that, and if you wish to discuss I am open to answering whatever I can about it or why I have the opinions I do about my protocols.

non-sarcastic emoticon smile>

I want to state right up front that I am respecting my trainer and intend to follow him through this next phase and even beyond. That part of this conversation is all worked out as my path is defined specifically for me and my history and I don't want to move off that path.

That said I am all about hearing what your opinions are on this topic. I think it would be a highly interesting discussion provided that there are no hard feelings anywhere for the lack of agreement. I have seen printed in many guru diets and I have seen in the bbing gym the carb cycling (more extreme) things in action and it does seem to work so I am not at all believing that my path is one that everyone must take. On these rather extreme diets people claim they do not lose strength and still lose fat. I would love to hear if you believe that a female person (under 20%) can drop more than 1 lb a week and still hit the stage with no muscle loss and how you think this works at a deeper level.

[PowerManDL]

Point 1 - you can indeed diet w/o *significant* muscle loss. However, the leaner you want to get, the more you'll have to accept, and this variable will vary depending on individual factors. Beyond a point it becomes a matter of minimizing losses, not

Diana, as one example, could probably diet down to ridiculous leanness with little to no loss of muscle or strength. Her body just doesn't seem to lose muscle easily. Another woman without her biological make-up might not be able to say the same. There's always a balance between the degree of muscle loss you're willing to accept and how lean you need/want to get.

However I'd note that even she never beats 1lb a week of loss. We always start her waaaaay out and give it plenty of time to dial in. In real terms, if you're already normal-lean, bro-normal, then no 1lb a week of consistent loss w/ no strength or muscle loss probably isn't realistic.

Point 2 - most BBers are on some kind of drugs. Full stop. If you are not on drugs, then you'd do best to stop comparing yourself to others. Simple as that.