The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
Hey Leigh - I'm cutting and really being super-strict with my calories and macros (all of 'em, not just trying for a protein goal), and the scale is moving in the right direction - FINALLY. I ended the week around a 4000 kcal deficit (GWFit vs measured food) and actually lost nearly 6# the first week (water and glycogen, obviously).
My log has details, but I'm doing 4 days of significant deficit, 2 (lifting) days of moderate deficit, and one day of maintenance/refeed each week.
I have noticed all the "symptoms of fat loss" hitting me. I'm tired, I can't get going in the morning, my workouts are weaker, I'm foggy and grumpy and tired. All "normal" and to be expected.
It's day 10 for me today and I am just BONKED today. Dead. On the couch headachey and foggy and miserable and tired and I do believe there will be minimal if any NEAT for the rest of the day.
Pauline suggested that it could be toxins flushing out, making me feel SO awful and miserable today. Since many toxins in our body are stored in fat and are fat- or water-soluble, do you think that some of these symptoms are from the toxins going back into my system as they flush out of the (disappearing) fat?
Just wondering about your thoughts on toxins versus generic "embrace the suckiness" of losing fat... and how long does the average person (if such a person exists) take to adjust/adapt to this - or is it going to be like this until I get to goal and eat again...
Yes, what you are discussing is a very real thing. Depending on a lot of factors different people have different "toxin" levels stored in their fat cells. (Please not this has nothing to do with "detox" bs liver/tea things.)
So anyway, you release organochlorine and within this compound are various PCB, Dioxins, etc. In short, you are polluting your body with whatever you have collected. IE you feel like shit.
More fun? These chemicals can slow down thyorid. There is even a wonderment if the extreme "bitch" or "asshole" that comes out of no where is because you are dealing with being poisoned. By the way this is a environmental issue, not a clean food issue. There is a small small change organic could make a difference but stepping outside your front door will likely erase it.
I did a interview about this when talking about the MRM. I almost put it in there, but didn't. If I ever revise it though I think I will toss it in there because it is a less discussed side effect of fat loss.
The only thing that has shown to help the side effects is Olestra (yep, the chip fat). Apparantly it decreases the side effects. I tested it out on my self because living in the 3rd most polluted spot in the contry and with a history of bad habits, I "detox" like a mother. I did feel a little better, but the problem is that is also messes with absorbtion of everything. So you couldn't do it everyday and how much it would really take to be uber effcient and for who I don't know.
You could though if having a really crappy day try eating no fat, meat, and all carbs in ruffles light and see what happens.
Yes, what you are discussing is a very real thing. Depending on a lot of factors different people have different "toxin" levels stored in their fat cells. (Please not this has nothing to do with "detox" bs liver/tea things.)
So anyway, you release organochlorine and within this compound are various PCB, Dioxins, etc. In short, you are polluting your body with whatever you have collected. IE you feel like shit.
More fun? These chemicals can slow down thyorid. There is even a wonderment if the extreme "bitch" or "asshole" that comes out of no where is because you are dealing with being poisoned. By the way this is a environmental issue, not a clean food issue. There is a small small change organic could make a difference but stepping outside your front door will likely erase it.
I did a interview about this when talking about the MRM. I almost put it in there, but didn't. If I ever revise it though I think I will toss it in there because it is a less discussed side effect of fat loss.
The only thing that has shown to help the side effects is Olestra (yep, the chip fat). Apparantly it decreases the side effects. I tested it out on my self because living in the 3rd most polluted spot in the contry and with a history of bad habits, I "detox" like a mother. I did feel a little better, but the problem is that is also messes with absorbtion of everything. So you couldn't do it everyday and how much it would really take to be uber effcient and for who I don't know.
You could though if having a really crappy day try eating no fat, meat, and all carbs in ruffles light and see what happens.
Thanks Leigh (for all but the last sentence ) - it helps to at least know what's going on / why I feel like crap. I'm sipping some tea (thanks Aoife for reminding me I hadn't made any yet today)... so this will pass at some point (I hope)???
Also - what are your thoughts on adding 100 calories back in on really crappy low-energy days. The balance between crashing and no NEAT versus a few calories which could lead to more NEAT and less cranky... and if you do think that'd be a good idea (not every day, but sometimes), what macro(s) would you add in? OR should I just wait it out and it'll pass...
I am sure what everyone has said here is applicable and I am far from an authority, but just wanted to add my recent experience. I am doing a short-term large calorie deficit diet, too. I started feeling achy, pukey and like I was hungover for a day or so. It was suggested that I needed more electrolytes (salt mainly for me, but also potassium, magnesium, calcium, etc.). I ate a whole little packet of salt and started feeling better within an hour or so. I still feel hungry and more tired than usual, but not achy and ill. To me, it seems logical that with all the water I was drinking and also having increased urination and decreased food intake, my water balance got messed up. I'm just saying, perhaps consider your electrolyte intake if you are really restricting calories severely.
I'm seeing a lot about pesticide exposure and some indications of persistence in humans
What I'm not seeing is anything indicating harmful levels, nor to support the idea that losing a little fat is releasing enough toxin to cause physical symptoms
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Plasma pollutant concentrations do seem to affect energy expenditure adaptations during weight loss or are at least correlated to the reductions pretty well:
Associations between weight loss-induced changes in plasma organochlorine concentrations, serum T(3) concentration, and resting metabolic rate.
Pelletier C, Doucet E, Imbeault P, Tremblay A.
Organochlorine compounds are released from body fat into the bloodstream during weight loss. Because these compounds may impair thyroid status, which is implicated in the control of resting metabolic rate (RMR), the aim of this study was to determine if the augmentation in plasma organochlorine concentrations might be associated with the decrease in serum T(3) concentration and RMR observed in response to body weight loss. Plasma organochlorine concentrations, serum T(3) concentration, and RMR were measured before and after weight loss in 16 obese men who followed a nonmacronutrient-specific energy-restricted diet for 15 weeks. As expected, a significant decrease in serum T(3) concentration and RMR was observed after the program, whereas concentrations of most detected organochlorines were significantly increased. Changes in organochlorine concentrations were negatively associated with changes in serum T(3) concentration (significantly for p,p'-DDT, HCB, Aroclor 1260, PCB 28, PCB 99, PCB 118, and PCB 170) and with changes in RMR adjusted for weight loss (significantly for HCB and PCB 156). In conclusion, organochlorines released in plasma during weight loss are associated with the documented decrease in serum T(3) concentration and RMR. Further studies are needed to verify whether these findings are causally related.
Further studies are needed to verify whether these findings are causally related.
They didn't establish causation. We know that weight loss automatically results in lowered RMR and thryoid levels (the whole leptin cascade). Chances that this is a correlation are very high.
The abstract doesn't list absolute values for the compounds, either, so this doesn't tell us anything. Now I've got to go download the whole paper and see what actually happened.
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And before we start going back and forth I didn't say anyhting about definitive, I said toxin in fat were a real thing. Now are they causing someone to be sick or blah don't know, its possible given the effects of those thing. Could the release be causing you to feel tired, I think that is a possible especially if it halts metabolic funciton. Seems like a connect the dots thing to me.
That is about all though.
The olestra thing was being have funny though. I mean there was a study but I am not really proposing someone eating tons of olestra.
Thermogenesis and weight loss in obese individuals: a primary association with
organochlorine pollution.
Tremblay A, Pelletier C, Doucet E, Imbeault P.
Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, Division of Kinesiology, Laval
University, Quebec, Canada. angelo.trembley@kin.msp.ulaval .ca
The main objective of this study was to investigate the potential impact of body
organochlorine (OC) pollution on the adaptive change in thermogenesis induced by
body weight loss. Fat mass (FM), fat-free mass (FFM), and sleeping metabolic
rate (SMR) were measured in obese individuals before and after a weight-reducing
program. The measured values of SMR were then compared to those predicted from a
reference equation established from FM and FFM in control subjects. Plasma OC,
leptin, total tri-iodothyronine, and free thyroxine concentrations were also
measured in obese subjects before and after weight loss. After weight loss, the
measured decrease in SMR was greater than that predicted by changes in FM and
FFM. Increased plasma OC concentration was the factor explaining the greatest
proportion of the difference between predicted and measured SMR changes induced
by body weight loss. OC pollution seems to be a new factor affecting the control
of thermogenesis in some obese individuals experiencing body weight loss.
Energy balance and pollution by organochlorines and polychlorinated biphenyls.
* Pelletier C,
* Imbeault P,
* Tremblay A.
Division of Kinesiology, PEPS, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec, Canada.
Organochlorines are fat-soluble chemical compounds resistant to degradation, so they are stored in the adipose tissue of practically every organism on the planet, including humans. Accumulation of these compounds in the body seems to be related to fat mass, obese individuals having a higher plasma organochlorine concentration than lean subjects. During body weight loss, lipid mobilization and a decrease in fat mass result in increased concentrations of organochlorines in plasma and adipose tissue. Organochlorines may have adverse health effects. For example, they have been associated with altered immune and thyroid functions and with some types of cancer. As these compounds may reach their target organs whilst in the circulation, their increase in plasma during weight loss might be associated with some physiological changes occurring during weight loss. Relationships have indeed been reported among weight loss-induced increase in plasma organochlorine concentration and decreased triiodothyronine (T3) concentration, resting metabolic rate, and skeletal muscle markers for fat oxidation. Although further studies are needed to assess the causality of these relationships, they raise concern about some potential undesirable effects of weight loss. Indeed, the effects of organochlorines on energy balance could complicate body weight loss and even favour weight regain. These notions lend support for weight-loss strategies favouring a moderate weight loss, which would reduce risks for cardiovascular diseases, diabetes and hypertension, without resulting in a substantial release of organochlorines.
Cliff's notes: Leptin crashes out, difference in thermogenesis is ~300 kJ per day, and they're talking a change from 700 to 800 micro-grams of OC.
And they all note that there's no definite causal relationship. Considering the leptin drop-off and the fact that impairment of thermogenesis in minimal (300kJ is 70 kcal) along with very low changes in OC levels, I'm not buying it.
And this still says nothing about causing any physical 'feel like crap' symptoms.
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The only avenue I found was in teh Tremblay review where they looked at immune function in Swedish folks that eat a lot of PCB-contaminated fish, and they think their *might* have been some relation between immune function and PCB levels.
However, none of these can demonstrate any clear causal linkage, because of the effects weight-loss has on leptin and the thyroid. It's a glaring confounding variable that makes it very hard to establish cause.
There wasn't anything that noted acute symptoms from toxins. Fat mass correlated w/ toxin levels (lean folks were something like 600ug/kg, obese were around 1100ug/kg) but even then there's no indications that increased plasma levels correlated with any "sickness" type symptoms.
I'd chalk it up to decreased recovery + metabolic symptoms from weight loss and cal restriction.
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Where we differ Matty is IMO I think that the cascade of effects that would cause that may not make you feel that great. Just me.
Maybe, however w/o any real data to support it I'm invoking Occam's razor.
We know that calorie restriction and loss of body mass lowers leptin levels which in turn screws w/ thyroid levels. That's just part of dieting, and it's unavoidable.
Now we have a confound in the form of trace amounts of toxins which *might* be causing a slightly greater depression in metabolic rate (70 kcal/day).
The metabolic depression will occur w/ dieting regardless of what you do, chemicals or no chemicals. If we add in the toxins, it might get worse by the energy equivalent of about 20g worth of carbs.
Which is the more reasonable answer?
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Maybe, however w/o any real data to support it I'm invoking Occam's razor.
We know that calorie restriction and loss of body mass lowers leptin levels which in turn screws w/ thyroid levels. That's just part of dieting, and it's unavoidable.
Yeah cause I haven't written that a thousand times.
Quote:
Now we have a confound in the form of trace amounts of toxins which *might* be causing a slightly greater depression in metabolic rate (70 kcal/day).
The metabolic depression will occur w/ dieting regardless of what you do, chemicals or no chemicals. If we add in the toxins, it might get worse by the energy equivalent of about 20g worth of carbs.
Which is the more reasonable answer?
/quote]I agree but the question asked was about toxins and if it was possible. I didn't say "YES YOU HAVE FOUND THE REASON WHY WE ALL FEEL LIKE SHIT AND IT WAS THAT ONLY!"
All I stated was that it was a real thing, what some studies have shown it can do, and a joke about Olestra that was technically tied to a study. I made no insane proposals.
For the record your boy said pretty much the same shit about metabolic rate, toxins, and not liking it right here.
What I stated is as far as I go and about as far as I believe it is relevant but I do find it interesting none the less and am curious if tested if those rate slow downs could be higher, what it would be like in different areas, etc. Would be interesting research.
Wow... my head's spinning... did NOT intend to start a massive scientific showdown!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerManDL
Bytsi do you happen to eat a lot of fish?
Yes, especially if you expand that to include seafood in general (lots of shrimp).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerManDL
However, none of these can demonstrate any clear causal linkage, because of the effects weight-loss has on leptin and the thyroid. It's a glaring confounding variable that makes it very hard to establish cause.
I'd chalk it up to decreased recovery + metabolic symptoms from weight loss and cal restriction.
Makes sense... I can see it being attributed to the general symptoms of fatloss, but the idea of toxins was raised in my log when I had such an awful low-energy feel-crappy day yesterday, so I figured I'd throw it out there and see what the consensus was. Or maybe there is something to it... I just hope it passes and I don't feel that bad every day for too long!
Wow... my head's spinning... did NOT intend to start a massive scientific showdown!!!
Yes, especially if you expand that to include seafood in general (lots of shrimp).
Makes sense... I can see it being attributed to the general symptoms of fatloss, but the idea of toxins was raised in my log when I had such an awful low-energy feel-crappy day yesterday, so I figured I'd throw it out there and see what the consensus was. Or maybe there is something to it... I just hope it passes and I don't feel that bad every day for too long!
Bytsi were your carbs very low the day you felt so terrible? IME I can tolerate lower calories but lower calories plus low carbs (low for me being under 80-100 grams) is awful for me and I feel like you described.
Bytsi were your carbs very low the day you felt so terrible? IME I can tolerate lower calories but lower calories plus low carbs (low for me being under 80-100 grams) is awful for me and I feel like you described.
My carbs were between 80 & 100 on those days... which is definitely lower than I am used to. I never go below 80...
Stop getting defensive, nukkah. I'm just pointing out issues in the methodology of the studies, and challenging the sickness notion.
Yeah you weren't challenging her or being disrepectful at all.
Matt if I may...
I think that a lot of the times you have something to offer. I don't think all the time you do, and others who are reading need to understand that cocky doesn't mean right.
Had Lyle posted that, you wouldn't have said a word. If Leigh's name is in the title it is almost 100% that you come in here and respond to it. It is sad dude.
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Yeah you weren't challenging her or being disrepectful at all.
Matt if I may...
I think that a lot of the times you have something to offer. I don't think all the time you do, and others who are reading need to understand that cocky doesn't mean right.
Had Lyle posted that, you wouldn't have said a word. If Leigh's name is in the title it is almost 100% that you come in here and respond to it. It is sad dude.
If anyone thinks I am actually bothered by anything that Matt says, it is just misunderstood text.
If you can't stand up to the challenge, you fail. Troll or no troll. Even if Matt was a complete moron (which you know we haven't got those tests in yet) a question is a question.
Plus, Matt dug into the fish thing, that was cool.
I personally don't see this, any of this as a contest. Who know more, who has the right answers the fastest. Matt may (or may not) have more time to read things than I do. He may find more stuff than I find. Great. What do I care? More info for the world.
I only have a problem if my ethics are challenged because that is trying to deplete character for troll sakes. I take my stance and my ability to stick to the facts the best I can seriously. If I really thought he was attacking me, I would treat it very different. If he is an I am not aware, well so be it, but I don't feel insecure about anything I have done.
Yeah you weren't challenging her or being disrepectful at all.
Matt if I may...
I think that a lot of the times you have something to offer. I don't think all the time you do, and others who are reading need to understand that cocky doesn't mean right.
Had Lyle posted that, you wouldn't have said a word. If Leigh's name is in the title it is almost 100% that you come in here and respond to it. It is sad dude.
You know, I really have tried to stop being such a blunt ass online, but I have to say this kind of ignorant, self-important and completely irrelevant peanut-gallery post makes that really difficult.
I'll leave it at that so this doesn't become what this always becomes, but suffice it to say that 1) there's nothing wrong with disagreement and discussion, 2) everybody learned something, and 3) what business is it of yours to come here and lecture me when you've offered nothing of substance to the thread?
If you really think I'm giving Leigh shit because I have problems with her, then you need to reassess what you "think" is going on.
As far as I'm concerned, this is just a troll post and should be treated accordingly - it was designed to rile me up and doesn't actually add any information or discussion to the thread.
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Toxins (Leigh?)
) - it helps to at least know what's going on / why I feel like crap. I'm sipping some tea (thanks Aoife for reminding me I hadn't made any yet today)... so this will pass at some point (I hope)???
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