The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
hey leigh, this is a crosspost - I put this in the running forum, but I would love your opinion on this topic.
I have come a long way with fat loss, down nearly 80 pounds from my heaviest. I have some competitive goals this year for the first time in running. I am 5' 6.5" and around 149-150 now. body fat around 26%. I am 7 weeks into a 12 week 5k training plan. I am doing really well with training, and in the first 6 weeks or so, was steadily losing fat. but now my appetite seems really huge, and I have had a hard time staying in a deficit this week. my eating by the way is 80-90 percent whole foods most of the time. two times eating out in 7 weeks, so very little junk.
are fat loss and competitive running goals mutually exclusive? my target 5k is the first week of march. furman running camp is middle may. target marathon is late november (want to qualify for boston 4 flat).
should I scale back the 5k training so I can diet harder and go into may running camp closer to an optimal running weight? (guessing 140 ish 23-24% body fat would be better?) however the fitness I am building right now is great, and I know it will help me for marathon season.
just really having trouble deciding where my focus should be right now. I am performing really well, but physiology 101 dictates that I would be even faster if I were a bit leaner.
As I have always stated, fat loss and running don't go hand in hand and is a recipe for disaster and to be truthful I think runny should be perused only after you are lean to keep the already huge list of possible problems down a little.
So in short, I would lose the fat, and take the rest of your life and time after that to be able to eat a bunch because you run.
Hey Wendy,Not sure if this will motivate you but I’m sitting here sick as a dog for the 2nd time in 2 and half months--totally out of my workout regimen, not able to train clients, and just plain miserable. I decided to experiment with myself and try to defy everything I intellectually know. I am (was!) training for a half marathon but still wanted to meet my fat loss goals of losing 5 pounds of fat. I went about it the smartest way I could (if that’s possible. Lol), I made sure I had pre and post workout recovery, ate extremely clean (lots of greens, veggies, fruits, etc), took my multi, tried to get sleep, etc. But it didn’t’ matter, my body still rebelled.
If you really think about the goal—to increase running endurance and speed, how can you do that if you are not fueling it properly and trying to work in negative caloric balance? Running is already very stressful/demanding on the body, throw that on top of a calorie deficit and your looking for trouble. I think you can get away with it at first but it will catch up. The body will end up showing you who is boss – it will end up stopping you through a suppressed immune system, an injury, or just not being able to progress/perform in the workouts.
It was very hard for me to come to the conclusion to stop the training but that I had to decide what was most important. I can’t have it all (even though I really thought I could), so I’m choosing what’s most important for me right now and that’s losing the fat. Once I do that I will determine where to go from there. :0)
I also have a very talented running friend who has completed several marathons. She also learned the lesson of the deficit!! A few years back she suffered 2 stress fractures while trying to train in a deficit. Not sure how true it is but her Sports Dr. told her that her body was actually taking minerals (calcium) form her bones because she was underfeeding but still demanding her body to perform at very high levels. Thus… injury.
Wishing you the best of luck with your decision. Its very hard, I know! But no matter what you decide you will succeed!! I’ve been watching your log, you’re awesome!!
I have a favorite blog written by a woman who is an endurance runner; she lost a good amount of bodyfat while running...but very very very slowly, over many months, and with no deficit. Significant weight training was in there. I think there's the very long slow way and the shorter way that others are describing for you (stopping the intense cardio burning and losing the fat first). If you're interested you can pm me and I'll send you the blog. She's going to try to continue training and compete in a body/figure competition, so I think we are really going to see how it is to maintain mass while burning it through endurance training.
You have probably seen Rachel Cosgrove's article about how she did with fat loss during her Iron Man training (not so well...) If not, you can find it on her blog and on Figureathelete.com
I was doing some pretty heavy training last year and attempting a calorie deficit and wound up totallying burning out, screwy hormone levels, and felt bad physicall and mentally. All of this actually led to a 15 lb gain (partially emotional eating, partially just trying to get energy into my exhausted body)
sarah, zoey and lara. A BIG THANK YOU for responding to this. I know you are all correct, and I have to face the fact that I got away with it for 6 weeks, but I am not going to continue to get away with training this hard and dieting.
the running coaches at furman univ (a camp I will be at in may) emailed me back. I am officially eating at or near maintenance this year. my body fat is my body fat. if it is too high to meet my goals this year, there is always time to take a break from running hard and focus on fat loss.
I am sure your decision is pretty settled. Since I know you like research though feel free to pubmed "marathon/cortisol" and you can see why physically it is hard to keep a deficit and mentally as well. It isn't a cop out, that is for sure
Glad it was helpful. There’s nothing like trying to achieve a goal (fat loss in this situation), going about it the wrong way but working really hard, and then getting frustrated. Sounds like you are in a good place now! I bet it feels much better to have one specific goal-- now you are ready to really attack it. Go, Wendy, Go!! Best of luck!
oh, yeah, and leigh, thanks for letting me know I am not copping out. I needed to hear that. sometimes you think that you are just a weak person for not being able to train hard in a deficit. here is an interesting article
Eat or get beaten
Jennifer Sygo, National Post
Published: Tuesday, February 03, 2009
Picture it: A thirtysomething woman is interested in training for a
triathlon, maybe even one as gruelling as the half- or full-Ironman. To
get herself into top shape, she decides to lose a few pounds, not only to
reduce the stress on her joints and potentially lower her risk of injury,
but also to shave valuable seconds or minutes off of her training and race
times (and hey, it doesn't hurt to look lean and mean in those skimpy
running bras). So despite the higher energy needs that come with more
intense training, she decides to trim her caloric intake just a little,
perhaps by cutting excess carbs such as pasta, bread and cereal. Her
intentions, she feels, are good, so much so that she might even see a
dietitian or other nutrition professional to help her lose the weight.
As a sport dietitian, I routinely work with female athletes of all shapes
and sizes, and some of them inevitably have eating issues, which can be
severe and ultimately life-threatening. But below the layer of the most
severe, clinically diagnosable eating disorders (including anorexia and
bulimia nervosa), there is another, much larger percentage of female
athletes whose dietary habits are putting them at risk, not only in terms
of their performance, but also when it comes to their health - and in many
cases, even the athletes themselves don't realize it.
The first week of February marks National Eating Disorders Awareness Week,
and while the topic of eating disorders is a vast one, the issue of female
athletes undereating is one that I feel is particularly worthy of some
discussion because it falls so far under the radar of many people.
ENERGY DEFICITS: NOT JUST ABOUT OIL AND GAS ANY MORE
So what happens, physically, when an athlete undereats? Let's take a
closer look. If an average female in her thirties needs to consume, say,
1,800 calories per day to maintain her weight, then it makes sense that an
active female would need more. How much more? Well, that depends whether
we're talking about a casual gym-goer who engages in three one-hour,
moderate intensity workouts per week, then you might tack on an additional
2,100 calories over the week (based on 700 calories burned per workout),
averaging out to an extra 300 calories per day.
But if that athlete is engaging in more intense athletic training - let's
say one or even two workouts per day, six days per week, with some lasting
several hours - then she could require up to 7,000-10,000 (or more)
additional calories per week, just to break even. That translates to an
extra 1,000 calories or more per day - quite a lot if you've been used to
watching every bite. On top of that, as an athlete becomes stronger and
adds more muscle mass, her metabolism increases - in other words, she
actually burns more energy at rest. So, in addition to their energy output
from training, these athletes also need to consume extra calories just to
conserve the lean muscle that they've worked so hard to build.
This is the theory, anyway. But, in my experience, few female athletes
actually eat this much. Many eat less, and while they may not be
intentionally dieting or restricting, it is not uncommon to see a
high-level female athlete eating between 1,800 and 2,500 calories per day
- simply not enough when their needs are 3,000 calories or more.
Most of the female athletes I've worked with don't even realize they are
undereating - they are just going with what social norms dictate women
should do to keep their weight in check, but these dietary habits can come
with unexpected and potentially severe consequences.
THE DANGERS OF NOT EATING ENOUGH
Initially, when an athlete undereats, the impact tends to be on
performance: She might feel more fatigued - either during training or
throughout the day - but in time, issues with sleep, injuries, illness or
burnout can start to arise. If an energy deficit persists for a prolonged
time, the result can be irregular menstrual periods and a loss of bone
health, making the athlete not only prone to short-term injuries like
stress fractures, but also long-term issues like osteoporosis. But perhaps
most surprisingly, many of these athletes actually find it harder to lose
the weight that they are trying so hard to control, especially when it
comes to those persistent few pounds around the middle.
But there is little research in this area (though the University of
Toronto has embarked on an ambitious project known as REFUEL, examining
the effect that gradually increasing women's energy intakes to meet their
needs has on body composition, menstrual status, and bone health). One
explanation is that a lack of fuel means a loss of muscle (remember,
muscle is expensive to keep around), which means a slower metabolism. It
is also possible that hormonal disruptions that resulting from what is
effectively long-term starvation favour fat storage.
THE BOTTOM LINE
Regardless of the mechanism, there is reason for hope: Evidence shows that
by eating more (in other words, actually meeting their energy needs),
athletes can perform better, maintain stronger bones, a better hormonal
balance and actually become leaner in the long run.
If you think undereating is an issue for you or an athlete you work with,
contact a dietitian who specializes in sports nutrition (visit
dietitians.ca/find for more information).
-Jennifer Sygo is a dietitian in private practice at Cleveland Clinic
Canada (clevelandcliniccanada.com), which offers executive physicals,
prevention and wellness counselling and personal health care management in
Toronto.
I'm very impressed by your decision. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people ask for advice on what they should do WRT conflicting goals only to ignore it and do what they wanted to do anyway. That definitely makes you strong, not weak.
I'm very impressed by your decision. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people ask for advice on what they should do WRT conflicting goals only to ignore it and do what they wanted to do anyway. That definitely makes you strong, not weak.
I'm very impressed by your decision. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people ask for advice on what they should do WRT conflicting goals only to ignore it and do what they wanted to do anyway. That definitely makes you strong, not weak.
awe! thanks ladies. and to that end, I just got back from an amazing run, one of the best yet. and fastest. guess I will be just fine running at this weight!
For endurance cycling you can even be one of the faster cyclists when having a bf% of over 30%. At least I was... until we'd be hitting the hillier events .
I've been referring to it a few times already but once again, I've made that mistake too to be trying to get ready for a big cycling event and ramping up the distance & speed, while trying to lose fat.
What did it result in? A highly unusual bacterial infection in my lower back & psoas muscle, which has made it impossible to cycle at all for over 3 years as it ruined the cartilage in the S1-L5 joint and made me too inflexible to even assume the more aerodynamically advantageous cycling position.
Right now I'm not even unhappy to have stopped cycling: I'm leaner & stronger than ever due to way lower cortisol levels. OTOH, it is a pity to not have appreciated how unusual it really is to be a fast cyclist at such a high bf% level on next to no food. Some things you can ONLy pull off when being err juicy.
wow, I would imagine that cycling that much "on next to no food" would have disastrous consequences. I have never done anything like that to my body. actually all of my years of endurance sports where done at higher bodyfats with very slow if any fat loss, so I would guess I was eating near enough to maintenance not to cause any damage to anything. I never got sick.
my big issue is running into concrete benches and wrecking my bike in loose sand!
I do think I am one of those people who genetically tolerates volumes of endurance exercise as long as I eat at maintenance. my friends all seem much more tired out from long efforts, even the younger ones nap on long run days.
even at 180-185 pounds, I remember running a 26 mile training run and then helping my husband load up the POD for our upcoming move later that day and the next day. as long as I am eating well, I seem to be just fine! funny how everyone has a different constitution.
this is the first time that I have attempted more volume of high intensity, though, which is why I am convinced that I need to particularly NOT be in a serious deficit at this time.
Mind you, I probably WAS eating at maintenance , just eating very little during the event itself and maybe not enough overall. For example, my most extreme successful event was in 1997 when I cycled 1400K nonstop (870mi) in 116 hrs and only had my first 4hr nap after 72hrs and slept a total of 8hrs. In hindsight I guess that calorie intake must not have exceeded 4000kcal for the entire event..
Less extreme but similar : 550K on virtually no calories and 100% of stress in 40hrs (no checkpoints, no outside help, just being self-reliant)
At the time I was trying to lose weight (2002-2003) I refused to count calories as it seemed such a PITA but tried to do a cyclical keto diet. Didn't work.. and knowing what I know now, it was a very dumb choice. Targeted ketodiets do work for endurance people, but even then you have to exercise caution.
Getting so sick was even more a PITA than counting calories and over time I got fascinated by the entire process itself.
yeah, the ultrarunners I know would never not eat during an event. just totally makes no sense. I also know two local cyclists who are distance cyclicts and multi-time RAAM finishers. they are amazing and very precise about their nutrition during the event and post event recovery. my friends who are multi-time ironman finishers are also similar. my friend who does ultrarunning, is a two time Hawaii ironman national age group champion at the ironman distance, and he would never even think about underfueling during an event.
I would imagine that underfueling would reak havoc on the metabolism!!
You can say that again! As to why & how it happened, it was just by chance.. having a higher body fat level makes it possible to thrive on very low carb intake.
Fat people seem to perform really well with ketones: they make more of them and it will reduce appetite. Lack ofcarbs also increases awareness for increase of catecholamines when being stressed.
For events that aren't actual races this will work to your advantage as it saves tons of time not spent on eating or finding food (most events I did were self-supporting = buy/bring your own food)
wow. makes sense. none of the local people who do RAAM or competitive (ie kona qualifiers) irondistance triathlons that I know are fat. they are all uberlean.
I have one overweight friend who has done two full ironman triathlons, but she has fueling down to a precise science. she is a great athlete.
Okay, I'm going to bump this thread Wendy! I just want some advice on what my macronutrient ratios should be when training for a half marathon. I've already done one full and two halfs, but of course I never really got the whole "conflicting goals" thing and suffered through the training. Now I got it thanks to Leigh! So, I've got my GoWear Fit and I know what my maintenance calories should be, but I was wondering if macronutrient ratios will be important so that I don't gain weight. Please understand that I am in no way an athlete and will not be setting any land/speed records here, I'm just doing this race as an excuse to see Seattle I will continue to weight train also, planning on doing Coach Do's Total Fitness Training Program three days a week along with three to four days of running (that fourth day will be dependent my body...totally listening this time around!). So, what do you all think...50-30-20, 40-30-30? Thanks!
I'm not a runner, but I am doing PT, and those PT workouts are long and very intense. I don't see HOW you could do both PT and running/training for a half and survive.
Trust me...the running probably should not really be classified as running...I am sooooo slow and I walk often! I really like his total body workouts so that is why I was leaning towards his program because I thought it would be most conducive to my goals. Maybe I should try something different?
Trust me...the running probably should not really be classified as running...I am sooooo slow and I walk often! I really like his total body workouts so that is why I was leaning towards his program because I thought it would be most conducive to my goals. Maybe I should try something different?
The important question is why the running? What does the running mean to you and your goals, what is its purpose?
No, I'm not doing fat loss while training...learned that lesson the hard way . I am one of those people that had injury after injury. Just curious what types of ratios I should stick to nutrition-wise. I didn't know if I should go really heavy on the carbs or just stick to the moderate carb intake.
As for the purpose of the running, it's not really a goal or anything. I don't even think hard core runners would not really consider me a runner because I incorporate alot of walking. It's always been secondary for me, but an opportunity arose to go to the Rock n Roll Half Marathon and I thought what the hell, once I'm done with OPT remix I would have the time to start training and not focus on a defecit for awhile.
Leigh-Fat Loss and competitive running
I will continue to weight train also, planning on doing Coach Do's Total Fitness Training Program three days a week along with three to four days of running (that fourth day will be dependent my body...totally listening this time around!). So, what do you all think...50-30-20, 40-30-30? Thanks!
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