The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
I still haven't gotten a chance to finish my log entries on my REPAIR that I completed on Sunday 10/19. I was up 2 pounds from day 1 of REPAIR, to 175. Today Wednesday, eating 1350 cal in Leigh's One Big Meal challenge, and no exercise yet, I'm down to 171, 2 pounds below the start of REPAIR... Water weight whatever... At least the REPAIR did NOT cause me to gain weight, just as Leigh said.
My refeed week was the weakest link. I'd like to start a thread/discussion on how ya'll relate to/do refeeds.
Monday and espec Tuesday I had a Massive headache backache, that I attribute to coming off sugar from the refeed...
I was asked: "When you did your refeed, how much water were you getting? Was your sodium way high, too? "
I think there was no water (2 cups?/day). Regarding salt: only ice cream & candy no salt; indian food was probably very salty, Calif Tortilla steak fajitas was probably salty... As I said, I see that for my next week long refeed, I will have a buddy to report to and a plan, and a discussion about refeed.
REFEED: Physically the need is to increase calories way up, with macros being 25%pro, 20% fat, 50% carb or such
EMOTIONALLY: if it means I'm taking a break from 12 week clean deficit with few or no cheats, and then going into another 12 week deficit, there is a need (for me) to have icecream, chocolate, and restaurant meals...
I'll be doing another refeed in 10.5 weeks, and then another 12 week deficit probably. So I'm curious to hear about the good and bad refeeds out there.
Refeeds are great but I have learned that I cannot just go out and eat whatever the heck I please anymore. This past weekend I did a PIG OUT feast at a German Restaraunt in town here and it caused me to sleep for about 15 hours. I have LONG AGO been able to eat a bunch of sugar without ill affects. Now it seems that really high fat kicks my butt too.
So I know now that my refeeds will always have to be thoughtful if I don't wanna spend the whole next day as a slug.
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Lately the word refeed has started to have a very limited meaning, viz. eating a high amount of carbs, normal amounts of protein and very little fat.
Mentally, a lot of people feel better with free meals/days or what used to be called cheat days.
Most people can't handle such a high amount of calories unless their maintenance (or deficit) is freakish high since it can make you get into calorie surplus after 1 week of eating at a deficit.
Cheat days are a ton of fun, but not as effective as refeeds. Nor are refeeds very effective for people who are highly insulin resistant or überfat. That's why they aren't recommended if you have a ton of weight to lose.
I just wanted to second what Espi said. Refeeds=specific number of grams of carbs/lb of body weight for a specified number of hours or days (depending on leanness), mostly starches with a small amount of sugar allowed; protein and fat at regular levels. Cheat/free meal=Deliberately eating a higher amount of calories than normal, usually more fats and carbs, including more sugars.
Lyle McDonald has a lot of stuff about refeeds (including how and when to do them) in a couple of his books.
I just wanted to second what Espi said. Refeeds=specific number of grams of carbs/lb of body weight for a specified number of hours or days (depending on leanness), mostly starches with a small amount of sugar allowed; protein and fat at regular levels. Cheat/free meal=Deliberately eating a higher amount of calories than normal, usually more fats and carbs, including more sugars.
Lyle McDonald has a lot of stuff about refeeds (including how and when to do them) in a couple of his books.
Does anybody know which books of Lyle's specifically talk about refeeds more?
I would recommend his Flexible Diet book, tells you everything you need to know about setting up a diut and when you need to take refeeds and/or free meals or diet breaks.
Most will know the PSMF/Rapid Fatloss book but that's a 'how to 'crash diet'safely book , while FlexDiet is for all calorie intakes ... I'd even use it for maintaining.
Etana, I was the one who asked about the water during your refeed/break week (whatever the technical name of it should be). I remember Leigh saying somewhere--and I can't remember if she said it during my phone consult with her or during a fitcast or if it was something I read in FLTS or her blog or the forums or whatever--that when you go on a diet break or a refeed that you need to really up your water to compensate for the increased sodium that you will undoubtably take in. I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of water was at least partly to blame for the headache. I know that I tend to get headachey (which often leads to migranes for me) if I don't get enough water in.
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I think it is 500 cal above maintenance. I'm thinking of eating 1700-2400 cal/day. When I'm completely sedentary my GWF says about 1600 cal. But what about macros? What about pizza and restaurant food and icecream and cake and processed foods? I would love to focus on the calories and forget about the rest, but ....
I know refeed to Karla is just extra peaches and chicken and rice, right?
NOTE: I will read back this thread and the thread it links to.... thanks, MissJane...
I have 2 weeks left of OPT for Fatloss 12 week program, will do a 1 week refeed, and then begin OPT again for another 12 week cycle. I have enjoyed the program, the variety of Resistance training phases, the rest breaks, and the food calories have been do-able.
Leigh, do you have any recommendations for my particular refeed, since my calories will have been in the 1100-1200 cal range for the last 4 weeks of the OPT program, and my deficit will have been 1000cal or greater/day?
I will post results and photos at the end of 12 weeks, July 27.
Being new to all of this, especially the terminology all I can say is that I have been extremely successful in the last 5 months with a "cheating day" each week, I have to date lost 55 lbs, first three months at a deficit of approx. 1500 per day and now somewhere around 1000, yes I work out really hard 6 days out of the week, but Sunday is family day, so although I do not consume sweets (something I have never cared for), I drink some beers, eat red meat (usually steak on the grill), I just completely wipe out of my mind that I am "eating correctly" the remainder of the week (I don't like the word diet), doing this has kept me very happy as far as food is concerned and have never felt deprived, on Mondays I have a very hard cardio workout about 1 hour of heavy burn, and by Tuesday I'm right back on schedule and I am still losing about 1 to 1.5 lbs per week. I am not saying that this will work for everyone, but I find it counterproductive to have to wait 12 weeks or so before I can have a few days of "food enjoyment" to me it would be like going to work for three months to have a really long weekend, rather than having a weekend every 5 days. Just my take on it, I know there are many studies and many experts that say different, I'm sure they are all "right" but for me this works better, especially the mental aspect of it.
In my mind, a refeed is very carb-dependent. It's done after your muscles are depleted of glycogen and need filling up. So the answer is carbs carbs carbs carbs.
This is distinct from a cheat meal, cheat day, or scheduled break.
This may not be the FLTS definition. Or anyone elses' definition, for that matter.
In my mind, a refeed is very carb-dependent. It's done after your muscles are depleted of glycogen and need filling up. So the answer is carbs carbs carbs carbs.
This is distinct from a cheat meal, cheat day, or scheduled break.
This may not be the FLTS definition. Or anyone elses' definition, for that matter.
I really enjoyed reading the article, thanks.... This is a scheduled break after 12 weeks. No cheats, everything written, no free days (which didn't work for me when I used to do them with BodyForLife)...
"2) Plan a week long carb/calorie reefed for week 10. This week of increased calories isn't an abrupt injection of calories like the previously two described refeeds. Instead it's a 400-600 calorie increase with a good portion of it coming from carbohydrates. Another difference is that your caloric increase comes from clean calories not pizza, wings, and coco puffs. 3) At the end of week 10, return back to your prior diet.
This application of a reefed is the most likely to have an influence on increasing your metabolic rate back to normal and boosting thyroid hormone output due to the duration of the refeed. Increasing your caloric and carbohydrate consumption for 7 days is most likely going to allow for a resetting of your thyroid and metabolic rate to some extent, if not completely."
I noticed when I did my free for all refeed after REPAIR, though I restricted my calorie maximum, the macros (with processed foods, restaurants and pizza) WERE high in fat.
However, after such a deficit as I've been on, great compliance, and so little progress scale-wise, I know I will have some pizza and ice cream. But I'd like THIS refeed to be enjoyable foods and restaurant indulgences, rather than mindless grabbing and stuffing with junk food.
Carbs are definitely the macro you want to make sure to get in. Lyle McDonald recently had a great article on refeeds on his blog. Check that out (sorry don't have the link handy but I posted a thread about it the other week). He argues that refeeds should be done for two weeks.
Personally I think a re-feed should be whatever food you want. No reason not to have pizza, sweets, etc. Of course you don't want to binge or gorge but you should be able to enjoy whatever foods you want. Refeeds are as much mental as physical. I have done three refeed weeks in the past 6 months and each time I indulged in plenty of my favorite foods. The majority of my food was still good, healthy food (jsut more of it) but I enjoyed pizza, wine, fresh baked goods, bagels and cream cheese etc. Just not all in one day
Carbs are definitely the macro you want to make sure to get in. Lyle McDonald recently had a great article on refeeds on his blog. Check that out (sorry don't have the link handy but I posted a thread about it the other week). He argues that refeeds should be done for two weeks.
Personally I think a re-feed should be whatever food you want. No reason not to have pizza, sweets, etc. Of course you don't want to binge or gorge but you should be able to enjoy whatever foods you want. Refeeds are as much mental as physical. I have done three refeed weeks in the past 6 months and each time I indulged in plenty of my favorite foods. The majority of my food was still good, healthy food (jsut more of it) but I enjoyed pizza, wine, fresh baked goods, bagels and cream cheese etc. Just not all in one day
Cheat/free meal: eat whatever you want* for one meal.
Cheat/free day: eat whatever you want* for said day.
* Whatever you want is to be taken literally. No concerns over calorie consumption, macros, food choices, etc.
Refeed: a period of over-eating, usually understood to emphasize carb intake and limit fat intake, generally lasting anywhere from 5 hours to a couple of days
Diet Break: a break from the stresses of diet, usually 1-2 weeks. You can (and should) still be mindful of calorie intake and food choices, but you can (and should) be much more relaxed about it
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Cheat/free meal: eat whatever you want* for one meal.
Cheat/free day: eat whatever you want* for said day.
* Whatever you want is to be taken literally. No concerns over calorie consumption, macros, food choices, etc.
Refeed: a period of over-eating, usually understood to emphasize carb intake and limit fat intake, generally lasting anywhere from 5 hours to a couple of days
Diet Break: a break from the stresses of diet, usually 1-2 weeks. You can (and should) still be mindful of calorie intake and food choices, but you can (and should) be much more relaxed about it
Leigh suggests a "Diet Break" after the 12 week OPT for Fatloss program, before beginning it again. "Being mindful of calorie intake and food choices" only helps people who have normal eating habits. When I am mindful of food my mind strays to candy, pizza, ice cream a mind full of that stuff... But what it sounds like from what I'm reading is a week of calories above maintenance but not out of control, with an emphasis on carb and de-emphasis on fat. Hmmm, what's a pizza or icecream without the magic carb/fat combo... So I'll keep those things under control ... Now I'm thinking about Italian food, lasagna with cheese, manicotti, Mexican food, Indian food... all these are carb with fat... And these are the foods I've been missing and looking forward to for my refeed/diet break
Now, PowerManDL, don't you go and be nasty to me or I'll punch you out! Let's play nice... (not that you did here, but ... on other threads... you're a little trouble maker
In my mind, a refeed is very carb-dependent. It's done after your muscles are depleted of glycogen and need filling up. So the answer is carbs carbs carbs carbs.
This is distinct from a cheat meal, cheat day, or scheduled break.
This may not be the FLTS definition. Or anyone elses' definition, for that matter.
Leigh suggests a "Diet Break" after the 12 week OPT for Fatloss program, before beginning it again. "Being mindful of calorie intake and food choices" only helps people who have normal eating habits. When I am mindful of food my mind strays to candy, pizza, ice cream a mind full of that stuff... But what it sounds like from what I'm reading is a week of calories above maintenance but not out of control, with an emphasis on carb and de-emphasis on fat. Hmmm, what's a pizza or icecream without the magic carb/fat combo... So I'll keep those things under control ... Now I'm thinking about Italian food, lasagna with cheese, manicotti, Mexican food, Indian food... all these are carb with fat... And these are the foods I've been missing and looking forward to for my refeed/diet break
Now, PowerManDL, don't you go and be nasty to me or I'll punch you out! Let's play nice... (not that you did here, but ... on other threads... you're a little trouble maker
This is why people get confused - it sounds like you are using them interchangeably. I know I'm nitpicking, but to the uneducated it can come off confusing.
Leigh suggests a "Diet Break" after the 12 week OPT for Fatloss program, before beginning it again. "Being mindful of calorie intake and food choices" only helps people who have normal eating habits.
So you can't pay passing attention to nutrient intake and the overall quality of your food w/o being OCD about it?
I mean, if I'm eating lean beef, fish, whole-grain breads, fruits & veggies, and not straying into any junk food, then there's a good chance I'm eating "decently" even though I may have no idea what my actual intake is.
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When I am mindful of food my mind strays to candy, pizza, ice cream a mind full of that stuff...
Then you're not being mindful of your food.
Reality check: Dieting is hard. If you don't have good eating habits to begin with, then it's harder because you have to form those habits.
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But what it sounds like from what I'm reading is a week of calories above maintenance but not out of control, with an emphasis on carb and de-emphasis on fat. Hmmm, what's a pizza or icecream without the magic carb/fat combo... So I'll keep those things under control ... Now I'm thinking about Italian food, lasagna with cheese, manicotti, Mexican food, Indian food... all these are carb with fat... And these are the foods I've been missing and looking forward to for my refeed/diet break
A diet break is as much about psychology as it is physiology, arguably more so.
The advice to "keep things in moderation" applies even to junk food. The goal is to keep the framework of good eating habits, but that doesn't mean you can't go eat some pizza or a burrito or a good butter chicken with rice if you want it, either.
In fact I'd encourage you to do just that.
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Now, PowerManDL, don't you go and be nasty to me or I'll punch you out! Let's play nice... (not that you did here, but ... on other threads... you're a little trouble maker
Etana I hear that throwing rocks at a hornet's nest is a good idea?
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So basically it is more of the "diet break" you are after.
Unfortunately if you don't learn to eat mindfully you will always be fighting fatloss. If you want to lose it and keep it off for good you need to change your eating habits and work on the mental stuff that "allows" you to overeat on foods that are not conducive to weight loss/maintenance. Pizza, ice cream, lasanga etc are all foods that can be enjoyed in moderation while maintaining your weight/fat loss.
We often play the victim with food and think of ourselves as powerless over the food and we can't stop ourselves from eating said pizza/ice cream/chocolate in reasonable amounts. Well this is simply not true. There is a reason we allow ourselves to overeat this stuff and most times it is some emotional reason going on. It is more than just "oh it tastes so good I can't stop. I highly recommend the book Inutuitve Eating. It goes into a lot of this stuff in depth.
(I know this is off track of this thread but your comments about mindfullness really struck a chord with me because it is something I have dealt with and taken steps to conquer)
In case you feel guilty while eating a ton of calorie-dense foods and still continue eating when you're no longer really hungry, then yes.. that's emotional eating and reading/applying the guidelines in Intuitive Eating is a great tool.
But sometimes it's just what it is.. desire to eat a lot and not feeling satiated until you've had an entire pizza, even though that's way more calories than your body can handle for maintenance.
In those cases you can deal with it just like you're balancing a financial budget.. we'd all like to splurge a ton of money we don't have. Solution is to make wise choices & maybe do have that entire pizza but not a pizza + ice cream. And even then you'd need to balance those days with lower calorie days.
When you have a rather low maintenance and a big appetite it is killing to only eat a single slice of pizza or a single serving of ice cream.
For a maintenance diet break week your lows just will be higher and your highs higher again.
This is probably not how most fitness folks do it, but it has turned out to be a great way to maintain and even lose weight while enjoying great food.
So you can't pay passing attention to nutrient intake and the overall quality of your food w/o being OCD about it? I mean, if I'm eating lean beef, fish, whole-grain breads, fruits & veggies, and not straying into any junk food, then there's a good chance I'm eating "decently" even though I may have no idea what my actual intake is.
The advice to "keep things in moderation" applies even to junk food. The goal is to keep the framework of good eating habits, but that doesn't mean you can't go eat some pizza or a burrito or a good butter chicken with rice if you want it, either. In fact I'd encourage you to do just that.
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Originally Posted by LaraT
So basically it is more of the "diet break" you are after.
Unfortunately if you don't learn to eat mindfully you will always be fighting fatloss. If you want to lose it and keep it off for good you need to change your eating habits and work on the mental stuff that "allows" you to overeat on foods that are not conducive to weight loss/maintenance. Pizza, ice cream, lasanga etc are all foods that can be enjoyed in moderation while maintaining your weight/fat loss.
We often play the victim with food and think of ourselves as powerless over the food and we can't stop ourselves from eating said pizza/ice cream/chocolate in reasonable amounts. Well this is simply not true. There is a reason we allow ourselves to overeat this stuff and most times it is some emotional reason going on. It is more than just "oh it tastes so good I can't stop. I highly recommend the book Inutuitve Eating. It goes into a lot of this stuff in depth.
PowerManDL, I've been thinking of your post for the past few days, and Lara's supports these ideas.... that maintenance and diet breaks are really the same foods as my deficit only more quantity, with a higher macro on the carb and low on the fat. A diet break in between two 12-week deficits should be just that, not a junk out fest.
I do know that I will want to go to restaurants more than I would in maintenance because it is 1 week in between the two 12-week really low calorie (1100-1200cal) diet, and I will have some treats. I will monitor total calories. Just a bit more relaxed on the counting and weighing, allowing some guestimating for restaurant foods, a base of good foods with some treats thrown in...
So I think this should be good for the 1-week diet break.
But sometimes it's just what it is.. desire to eat a lot and not feeling satiated until you've had an entire pizza, even though that's way more calories than your body can handle for maintenance.
When you ignore your physical hunger cues (most people would be stuffed or sick after eating a whole big pizza) and continue to eat to satisfy some mental urge that is still a form of "emotional eating" for lack of better word.
Lara, I've often thought it had to be emotional, but frankly I'm NOT feeling stuffed at all or sick as otherwise I'd not eat it anymore.. I never or rarely if ever do that.. last time was over 5 yrs ago when hit with SAD (winter blues) at the first flake of snow.
Just chalk it up to that not everyone is physically wired the same way..some people just have a huge stomach and don't get that 'satiety signal'.. fortunately neither do I get that 'hunger' signal, which makes fasting easy-peasy.
Frequently I'll not be hungry until after a meal is finished.. fasting for an entire day is easier than trying to eat 6 meals. In some ways I think Etana is the same (seeing her do Eat-Stop-Eat or One Big Meal days with ease).
Etana, I think you can totally do a maintenance week and perhaps even 2 of them (apparently 2 weeks is the new norm for diet breaks) and enjoy the foods you love most.. just budget for them and lower your other days for a bit.
Just chalk it up to that not everyone is physically wired the same way..some people just have a huge stomach and don't get that 'satiety signal'.. fortunately neither do I get that 'hunger' signal, which makes fasting easy-peasy
Frequently I'll not be hungry until after a meal is finished.. fasting for an entire day is easier than trying to eat 6 meals. In some ways I think Etana is the same (seeing her do Eat-Stop-Eat or One Big Meal days with ease). ..
yes that's me:
1, some people just have a huge stomach
2, neither do I get that 'hunger' signal, which makes fasting easy-peasy
3, Frequently I'll not be hungry until after a meal is finished.. (espec if there's processed carbs, I'm more hungry after the meal than before it)
One benefit of all this tracking is that I am starting to see what patterns I have and to learn to adjust to them. If I overeat, I didn't "blow the whole week," I just adjust the next few days. Seeems like I should already know this, but from dieting all my life, I didn't realize.. it was just diet cheat failure binge punish diet
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Etana, I think you can totally do a maintenance week and perhaps even 2 of them (apparently 2 weeks is the new norm for diet breaks) and enjoy the foods you love most.. just budget for them and lower your other days for a bit
I might just do 2 weeks, and then maybe I dont' have to cram the things I've been missing into 1 week, but can budget them over the time.
Maybe I got confused from the last week of MRM REPAIR where the guidance is to have calories higher than maintenance, lots of carbs.
Yep Already thought you & me are wired in similar way: feeling far happier on a single 1000kcal meal than on 3-4 mini meals. Taking the guilt out of the equation = best thing ever.
Carbs will be the best choice for a refeed as those have the biggest impact on leptin.
For a diet break, especially after a diet that was very low in calories and by nature also in carbs, it is logical to also up the carbs, so indeed that last week of MRM & this diet break looks very similar with the exception that you now apparently keep calories a bit lower & eat at maintenance.
Yep Already thought you & me are wired in similar way: feeling far happier on a single 1000kcal meal than on 3-4 mini meals. Taking the guilt out of the equation = best thing ever.
Carbs will be the best choice for a refeed as those have the biggest impact on leptin.
For a diet break, especially after a diet that was very low in calories and by nature also in carbs, it is logical to also up the carbs, so indeed that last week of MRM & this diet break looks very similar with the exception that you now apparently keep calories a bit lower & eat at maintenance.
Well, I really have been enjoying my 6 mini meals. I have learned SO much about portion control. The frequent 20 gram of protein has really kept me satisfied without cravings, and that is a blessing for me..
However, I do recall that my successful diets, where I lost 40 lbs in 4-6 months, I ate nothing all day, and then would polish off 1/2 to 3/4 of a roast chicken and 1-2 pickles or 1/2lb of cherries or something... Doesn't sound so terrible right now
"Refeeds"
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