The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
I've really come to believe this. Here's the reason: I've exercised my brains out with very intensive programs, had a pretty good although not perfect diet, and not lost any discernible degree of fat. It's very very frustrating.
And get this: I sprained my shoulder and broke a rib in a ski fall 5 years ago, and couldn't exercise at all for a few months. To amuse myself, I plunged into Atkins induction for 6 weeks. I was very strict and stuck to the program exactly, and I lost MORE FAT and MORE WEIGHT with that than anything else I've ever done. By keeping carbs under 20, and of course this diet included no bread/starches/sugar/alcohol/f ruit/dairy (other than hard cheese in limited quantities), and thru all these eliminations my calorie levels were quite low...I had a hard time exceeding 900 calories because I just couldn't stuff down all that much meat.
Conclusion: "it's the food, stupid." Controlled food, less of it. That was the key for me.
All this said, I don't want to do Atkins and no exercise again. I love how I feel when I exercise, and my main challenge is to control the food and portion sizes. I still apply certain Atkins ideas, though. My fat loss is ALWAYS stalled by more than a little fruit, and also by dairy and starches. I don't eat sugar, and I really limit the aforementioned things.
Hi! You are exactly right. I've done the same thing - working out 6 times a week, eating really well and yet... Didn't count calories, wasn't *super* aware of how much I was eating and when, but I had a mindfulness toward eating well that went far beyond most people's. And what happened is that I became strong, I ran faster and more races, but I remained doughy.
There are a million great reasons to exercise, and probably #1 is how when you stick to it knowing that you are doing "the hard thing" and becoming fit it changes the way you think about yourself. In a lasting and all-encompassing way your view of life and of what you are capable changes. So that is gold.
But it's odd to see a show like The Biggest Loser - which I do love watching - still place SO much emphasis on training and devote so little air time to the importance of dialing in your nutrition as precisely and consistently as possible in order to lose fat. Joe Average will never have 3 to 4 hours a day to train like they do, nor should he. So regular folk really need to get their sh*t together in the kitchen, CONSISTENTLY, and yes it's a pain in the butt but it's what WORKS.
Thanks for starting this thread! Lately it's been very near and dear to me as I work with Martin Berkhan and his Leangains program of intermittent fasting, super specific meal macros and timing, and heavy, low volume lifting to whip myself into tippy top shape.
You have to get into the mindset that if fat loss is your goal, your nutrition, macros, and timing really do matter.
Cheers!
__________________ Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
My experience has also been the same. Not until I started weighing and tracking all my food did the weight start coming off. You don't even need to do low carb to lose. So yes it is all about the kitchen.
Hi! You are exactly right. I've done the same thing - working out 6 times a week, eating really well and yet... Didn't count calories, wasn't *super* aware of how much I was eating and when, but I had a mindfulness toward eating well that went far beyond most people's. And what happened is that I became strong, I ran faster and more races, but I remained doughy.
There are a million great reasons to exercise, and probably #1 is how when you stick to it knowing that you are doing "the hard thing" and becoming fit it changes the way you think about yourself. In a lasting and all-encompassing way your view of life and of what you are capable changes. So that is gold.
But it's odd to see a show like The Biggest Loser - which I do love watching - still place SO much emphasis on training and devote so little air time to the importance of dialing in your nutrition as precisely and consistently as possible in order to lose fat. Joe Average will never have 3 to 4 hours a day to train like they do, nor should he. So regular folk really need to get their sh*t together in the kitchen, CONSISTENTLY, and yes it's a pain in the butt but it's what WORKS.
Thanks for starting this thread! Lately it's been very near and dear to me as I work with Martin Berkhan and his Leangains program of intermittent fasting, super specific meal macros and timing, and heavy, low volume lifting to whip myself into tippy top shape.
You have to get into the mindset that if fat loss is your goal, your nutrition, macros, and timing really do matter.
Cheers!
IDV8,
How are you doing on martin"s program. I just restarted a version of his program that he gave me 3 months ago. It's pretty easy for me during the fasting periods but definitely takes a lot of mental concentration for me to not overeat during the feeding periods. But just like you said, when my eating is on point, I definitely lose fat.
So far so good! But I'm just in week 2 so it's too soon to evaluate how it's working. I feel good, I do well during the morning fast (must say, it's almost noon here and I'm looking forward to 1pm to eat!), and I LOVE his style of training after busting my rump on Afterburn II for 2 months.
So far I've been able to stick to it with 100% compliance. A new record for me! I think that if I have another good weigh-in this Saturday (seem to have lost a couple of pounds last week... we'll see whether it's a trend or an anomaly!) it will be that much easier to ignore my cravings and stay super focused and motivated. I'm definitely full during my 8 hour eating window and Martin said it's fine to have low-fat ice cream after a workout so I plan it in along with the meat, fish, vegetables, fruit, nuts, and cottage cheese that are my staples.
I must say that on workout days it's not easy breaking my fast with 175 grams of grilled chicken breast and 2 cups of broccoli! It's not that it's not tasty but after not eating for 16 hours my palate craves the soothing, creamy blandness of yogurt and cottage cheese, not a mountain of meat. But as Leigh would say, suck it up! It's just for 3 meals a week and the rest of the time I have a more balanced meal with foods I look forward to eating.
Wish me luck, and good luck to you too!!
__________________ Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
More thoughts on this....
I'm always very mindful of everything I put in my mouth. I know at certain meals here and there (by no means all or even most of my meals) I have eaten more than I should, but still, not hugely more. And I've felt my downfall has always been my seemingly limited and small "cheats"....we'll be out somewhere, hubby gets a donut, I break down and have one too. Sometimes two. Or out to dinner, I've got a perfectly clean meal, but I'll get a dessert. But otherwise, I'll be right on track. My "cheats" are NOTHING like most people eat (i.e. those not on a diet or who don't watch what they eat at all). My dietary digressions are laughably and pitifully small, but still they are consistent and pretty much daily. Therein lies the problem, I guess.
I've had to conclude that exercise is great and probably helpful to some degree, but it is NOT the main determiner of weight loss. Perhaps if I could exercise like they do on the TV shows....4 or 5 hours daily....perhaps that would make a marked difference. Obviously it does on those shows...although most people on the shows have quite a lot to lose so any change in their lives creates initial changes. AND...on the shows their diet is totally regimented and controlled. No cheats. Most of the attention on the shows is centered on the exercise, less so on what those folks are actually eating each day.
What I keep coming back to is the necessity of paring down my meals to amazingly small portions, even more limited than they are now. We all suffer from "portion distortion", so what a person *needs* to eat in any given meal is probably considerably smaller than we think. Remember how people used to say "so and so eats like a bird"....that's the key. Eat like a bird. Eat often, eat small amounts. SMALL amounts.
We think of our diet in terms of DAILY food intake, but perhaps that is too large a period of time. Instead, I like the concept that you are actually fueling a 2 or 3 hour window of time starting with that meal. If you are about to go exercise, you might need more calories. If you're just sitting and typing, you need very low calories for that "window." So it makes sense that if you eat double what might be needed for that period of time, half of what you eat could be viewed by the body as excess and might get immediately stored as fat. This would explain why eating one or two huge meals a day rather than 4 or 5 doesn't work....you remember the studies about how a given number of calories affected people depending on how many meals those calories were divided into....fewer meals led to little or no weight loss, whereas 4 or 5 meals led to solid weight loss. And remember the Sumo wrestler story about how ALL their daily calories are funneled into ONE big meal in the evening. And logically, if you eat a big meal with excess calories, how could you body utilize all that energy right away, so of course the excess goes somewhere...it gets sent on a fast track to fat storage. It just all seems so logical to me.
SO.....my immediate goal to to get my food into at least 4 meals a day, all very small meals. AND....I have to be strict with it, very consistent over time, because I have seen that it doesn't take much cheating or overeating to stall all loss.
Final puzzle: I go back and forth about food composition...i.e. more protein, less fat, fewer carbs, and the only sure thing I've observed with myself is that carb levels absolutely DO affect my own fat loss. I have gone lengthy periods of time with quite low calories but more carbs in the form of a bit more fruit, some rice, some oatmeal, occasional bread products....nothing in excess by the way, but despite all this I don't seem to lose an ounce. It's very frustrating.
I remember my dad saying once "I could gain weight eating nothing", so it must have affected him too. There are some very mysterious and complex factors affecting weight loss, that's all I can say. And once you add excess fat, the body is very very reluctant to give it up, that much is obvious. If anyone ever figures all this out definitively, they'll be billionaires!
For a small minority of people a ketodiet is about the only way they will lose a substantial chunk of fat without having to drop calories to obscenely low levels.
For most people it's just all about calories really, except that eating more carbs will mostly make you hungrier. Exercise can really fatigue you and present you with insane appetite, while it doesn't really burn all that much. Right now I'm plateauing since I've kicked up exercise a notch. I'd recommend to not exercise more than 3 times/wk or every other day, so that on the days in between you can R-E-S-T & R-E-C-O-V-E-R while eating less. I've deliberately squeezed 4 workouts into 3 days so that I get that extra rest day, yet I'm currently maintaining coz' the training left me too famished. Not eating enough = no recovery.
To some extent it can sometimes really be easier to decrease training frequency even further if this affects you a lot and do nothing more but easy NEAT stuff plus just 2 heavy & short lifting sessions.
CMCM, I commented in your log, but I'll do it here too. You posted your eating for a day in your log, and you are under 1,000 calories! That's really low cal and not good.
Personally, I definitely DON'T subscribe to the "eat like a bird" philosophy! I want to be able to enjoy food, to live and eat happily and healthily, and to be able to perform physically at the level I ask of my body. If I was fat once it's because I love food, and I will always love it, and don't apologise for it. But I won't die fat and diseased for my love of it, or allow it to control and enslave me. However sharing meals with loved ones, or to learn about different cultures, is as much a part of life as laughter. That's MY two cents.
I'm sure if Leigh gets in here (Leigh...!!) she will tell you, CMCM, that you are wrecking your metabolism and setting yourself up to not be able to eat normal, healthy portions without gaining fat fast. That SUCKS because a life spent eating like a bird can't be a very happy one unless you have wings and feathers!
I realise that there's no "one diet/program fits all" solution but have you tried other strategies that will not be so radical or unhealthy? Like The Fat Loss Troubleshoot or even Brad Pilon's Eat Stop Eat? There IS another way for you, there has to be!
Don't be discouraged... believe!!!
__________________ Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
I just wonder if there is more of a correlation with calories and fat gain/loss and AGE... That's why I began the other thread... And I think it's really worth studying.
CMCM, I commented in your log, but I'll do it here too. You posted your eating for a day in your log, and you are under 1,000 calories! That's really low cal and not good.
You're right...calories ARE low. I don't know how to get them higher because there's only so much I can eat. I struggle with lack of appetite a lot of the time. If I have an egg/meat breakfast at say around 8am, I often won't really feel hunger until 2 or 3 pm. I suppose my mistake is WAITING for hunger to hit....but if I don't feel hunger, I am really put off eating. I remember doing Body for Life and trying to make 5 meals a day, and it was a real stress to continually eat when not hungry. Since digestively I can't eat gluten grains (and the rice breads etc. are nutritionally empty and high carb) and since I also don't handle much dairy (stomach upsets from cottage cheese and yogurt), I'm always up against keeping up calorie levels.
I make salads and put in nuts, seeds, an olive oil/balsamic dressing, and I seem to end up with rather high fat levels, although it's mostly beneficial fats. I'm certainly open to suggestions from people, but eating is an issue in terms of hunger. I've read that most people tend to want less food as they get older....that seems true with me. I never used to be satisfied with so little food. Only way I get calorie levels up is to eat a lot of high carb stuff, breads, etc.
Is anyone else out there in the same boat as I am?
a life spent eating like a bird can't be a very happy one unless you have wings and feathers!
I love this - just had to highlight it!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMCM
I never used to be satisfied with so little food. Only way I get calorie levels up is to eat a lot of high carb stuff, breads, etc.
I wonder if you're "satisfied" with low cals not because of age, but because you've gotten so used to it.
Are you vegetarian? I didn't read your log where you list your actual foods, but you haven't mentioned meat much here -- chicken, fish, lean red meats, other seafood (like shrimp), eggs??? You said you get plenty of fat, but protein is so important too.
Also, sometimes I find that if I'm not that hungry but then I'm around good food, I get hungry. So perhaps if you TRY to eat on a schedule and put yourself around foods that smell and look good, you will start to learn to be hungrier after a few weeks... Another example - I was not a breakfast eater (at all) when I was fat. Once I forced myself to eat breakfast, I got used to it and now I am always hungry in the morning...
You're right...calories ARE low. I don't know how to get them higher because there's only so much I can eat. I struggle with lack of appetite a lot of the time. If I have an egg/meat breakfast at say around 8am, I often won't really feel hunger until 2 or 3 pm. I suppose my mistake is WAITING for hunger to hit....but if I don't feel hunger, I am really put off eating. I remember doing Body for Life and trying to make 5 meals a day, and it was a real stress to continually eat when not hungry. Since digestively I can't eat gluten grains (and the rice breads etc. are nutritionally empty and high carb) and since I also don't handle much dairy (stomach upsets from cottage cheese and yogurt), I'm always up against keeping up calorie levels.
I make salads and put in nuts, seeds, an olive oil/balsamic dressing, and I seem to end up with rather high fat levels, although it's mostly beneficial fats. I'm certainly open to suggestions from people, but eating is an issue in terms of hunger. I've read that most people tend to want less food as they get older....that seems true with me. I never used to be satisfied with so little food. Only way I get calorie levels up is to eat a lot of high carb stuff, breads, etc.
Is anyone else out there in the same boat as I am?
I'm rowing beside you, sister, though my dinghy is a little larger than I'd like...
I've found through trial and error that it's a mistake to wait for hunger, especially on a lower carb diet. Your body will lie to you like a felon with three strikes, then finally adjust down like idv8 and the others said.
You may just have to count or track what you eat to make sure you're eating enough. I know I do.
What I found helpful was:
Double down on the protein shakes. If you take 2 scoops, use 3 or 4 in the same amount of water.
Add things like avacado/guacamole to your meals if you like that.
MORE SEA CREATURES. Fish is a great clean-feeling source of protein and hard to get too much of. Sprinkle some aged parmesan on it if you like. Or maybe try tuna.
Try and get in two servings of nuts (macadamia, walnuts, almonds, sunflower seeds).
Baked chicken wings (or fried if you prefer) have saved me on many occasions. I keep a bowl in the fridge and nibble on them during the day. Also, they're easy to alter (hot sauce, dips, etc.)
GET CREATIVE. Add to your spice arsenal. Search the web for lower carb recipes. I find boredom with my menu makes me eat less.
I hear ya on the "no appetite" thing. I really do. But sometimes I gotta set the clock and hit my macros so I don't do MORE damage than I've already done.
"Eat more, rebound less" is how I think of it. Good luck!
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I really should leave the house...
And it is absolutely not true that eating more frequently is better than 3 meals a day. It is all about total calories. Some people actually do worse eating little bits every few hours because you never feel satisfied.
I just wonder if there is more of a correlation with calories and fat gain/loss and AGE... That's why I began the other thread... And I think it's really worth studying.
I know for me personally as I get older it gets much harder to lose. I noticed a huge change when I turned 35 and now as I am approaching 40 finding it even harder.
Since digestively I can't eat gluten grains (and the rice breads etc. are nutritionally empty and high carb) and since I also don't handle much dairy (stomach upsets from cottage cheese and yogurt), I'm always up against keeping up calorie levels.
Hello! Have you tried quinoa? It's a gluten-free grain, actually considered a "supergrain" because its so nutritious. It contains lysine (an amino acid that is not present in many grains), so it is a complete protein. It's also an excellent source of iron, phosphorus, B vitamins, and calcium.
I make a chicken, apple, walnut spinach salad and sometimes mix in some quinoa too. You could also use it just as you would use rice in any recipe.
Hello! Have you tried quinoa? It's a gluten-free grain, actually considered a "supergrain" because its so nutritious. It contains lysine (an amino acid that is not present in many grains), so it is a complete protein. It's also an excellent source of iron, phosphorus, B vitamins, and calcium.
I make a chicken, apple, walnut spinach salad and sometimes mix in some quinoa too. You could also use it just as you would use rice in any recipe.
Hi, Sheila. Thanks for stopping by. I'm sure you'll find the place pretty friendly. Especially if you pop into the nutrition section and share some of your recipes...
Hi, Sheila. Thanks for stopping by. I'm sure you'll find the place pretty friendly. Especially if you pop into the nutrition section and share some of your recipes...
I've enjoyed your blog for a while now. -- Roland
Hey!! I won't highjack this post, but good to "meet" you here and now I have a face to place with a name! As a matter of fact, I am actually posting a recipe right now.
You're right...calories ARE low. I don't know how to get them higher because there's only so much I can eat. I struggle with lack of appetite a lot of the time. If I have an egg/meat breakfast at say around 8am, I often won't really feel hunger until 2 or 3 pm. I suppose my mistake is WAITING for hunger to hit....but if I don't feel hunger, I am really put off eating.
This sounds like maybe you have confused your body and its normal hunger signals with consistent undereating. I would second the recommendation to look into Leigh's programs (FLTS and MRM). MRM (if you need it) has a very specific program to help people go from eating very low calories to a slow increase that gets them up to where they probably should be, and it works to reset your metabolism while doing so.
I'm sure Leigh will be along with some thoughts, but in the meantime, I'd check out some of the other posts in this forum as well as Leigh's blog and her books.
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"Do you choose to simply know the path, or do you choose to walk it?"
Your body keeps an accurate journal regardless of what you write down...
I want to point out that I have never deliberately tried to keep calories low. I just tend to eat following hunger, and sometimes when I track and add up calories I'm shocked at how low they are. I'm always hungry at breakfast and eat a good breakfast with heavy protein, but after that the hunger is pretty low. If I get busy, I can let things go without food until mid afternoon, when a modest amount of hunger typically hits. And then after eating at that point in time, I'm not hungry at dinner time.
As for Leigh's programs, they do look interesting but as I said elsewhere, Leigh herself is fairly young, and I really am starting to think women over perhaps 45 or 50 have vastly different metabolisms and programs which work for women in their 20's and 30's aren't nearly as successful for women in my age group. I keep hoping I'll find some genius who has worked with over 45 or over 50 women and figured out a great program which suits that age level, but I'm still looking! If I ever figure things out for myself in a reasonable way, heck, I'll write that program myself! Meanwhile, I just keep searching and trying things. I still have faith there's an answer out there!
If age, diet and training are an issue, you might look at Figure Athlete . There are specific articles by Khrista Schaus for female figure training over 50 that I'm sure can be modified to fit your goals. Hell, at 40, I can only dream of having her physique, but I don't wanna train THAT hard.
Check the archives and the forum. Drop her a PM.
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I really should leave the house...
I want to point out that I have never deliberately tried to keep calories low. I just tend to eat following hunger, and sometimes when I track and add up calories I'm shocked at how low they are. I'm always hungry at breakfast and eat a good breakfast with heavy protein, but after that the hunger is pretty low. If I get busy, I can let things go without food until mid afternoon, when a modest amount of hunger typically hits. And then after eating at that point in time, I'm not hungry at dinner time.
As for Leigh's programs, they do look interesting but as I said elsewhere, Leigh herself is fairly young, and I really am starting to think women over perhaps 45 or 50 have vastly different metabolisms and programs which work for women in their 20's and 30's aren't nearly as successful for women in my age group. I keep hoping I'll find some genius who has worked with over 45 or over 50 women and figured out a great program which suits that age level, but I'm still looking! If I ever figure things out for myself in a reasonable way, heck, I'll write that program myself! Meanwhile, I just keep searching and trying things. I still have faith there's an answer out there!
Hello again. When I read your response above, I felt like I was reading a message from my Mom, written 3 years ago. She went through the same struggles. She is 53 (you would never know it though), and over the past 3 years she has totally reinvented her eating habits. She too was never really hungry and was having a hard time losing weight. She had to slowly bring her calorie levels up. Now she eats roughly 2000 cals a day and maintains her weight at 115 (5'3"). She lost about 20 pounds, I am really proud of her. She also works out 3-4 days per week.
I will note that she worked with Leigh in order to make these changes, however I don't want you to think I am pressuring you to work with Leigh or buy her books. She and her books are wonderful, but that is not what this is about. My main concern is for you to realize that you don't have to put off changing you life in hopes of finding the perfect program for those that are over 50. All the tools are here already. Once you turn a certain age, your hormones and body don't magically turn off or slow down drastically. Granted it may not be as easy as when you were 20, but its nowhere near impossible.
You can do this, and you will get your body back on track. Its going to take some work to build up your "hunger" again, but trust that it will come back, and your metabolism will get firing again, but it won't do that without some changes on your part. You've got to put the wheels in motion by taking some of the steps listed above by the fantastic members here that want to help. It sounds cliche, but truly all it takes is baby steps. What do you have to lose by trying, ya know?
I know from experience that it's easy to talk ourselves out of taking that first step because a) deep down inside, we are comfortable with where we are now, and b) because change is scary! But once we get moving in the right direction, and see some positive results, we realize how easy it really can be when we take the emotion and head games we play with ourselves out of the equation. {Again, speaking for myself here.}
I want to agree with Sheila ... just because I pointed out in the Ageing thread that things are different for post-menopausal women, I didn't mean to imply that there was then some magical program for those over a certain age that would work better. The same principals apply ... things just might be slower ... and you might need more diligence. Sheila gives you very good advice ... you probably need to get your calorie levels up a bit to regulate hormones a bit (grehlin, leptin, cortisol, etc). Then you'll be able to drop them down again to lose fat.
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
CMCM, I am in exactly the same boat. I am just not hungry to eat, and, therefore, my calories sometimes don't make it to 1000 a day. My sister agrees with the other ladies here, need to get the calories up, but it is very hard to do. I feel bloated after small amounts of food. Someone suggested I take predigestive enzymes and probiotics to see if that would help me with the bloated feeling and see if I can eat more. I'll let you know if they work!
Too Young
Too Fat
Too Thin
Too Old
Too Skinny
Too Much Muscle
I will always be too something, but, this isn't about me.
The material, what it takes to achieve fat loss, it is what it is. For what it is worth I have a LOT of clients in or past menopause because of my ability to work with hormone problems. IMO, no matter who or how you go about it, get the information and the facts first. Then, once educated, you can easily choose through programs that can help you better achieve your goals.
Too Young
Too Fat
Too Thin
Too Old
Too Skinny
Too Much Muscle
I will always be too something, but, this isn't about me.
The material, what it takes to achieve fat loss, it is what it is. For what it is worth I have a LOT of clients in or past menopause because of my ability to work with hormone problems. IMO, no matter who or how you go about it, get the information and the facts first. Then, once educated, you can easily choose through programs that can help you better achieve your goals.
Best of luck.
Leigh....I sent an email to your website to inquire if your program lent itself to adjustments to eliminate gluten and most dairy, but have not had an answer. My concern is how to implement ANYONE'S program because of my own particular dietary restrictions. I cannot eat wheat/rye/barley or any product which contains these things. Oatmeal is also possibly a problem although the oat protein is not the same as in wheat. I'm currently trying gluten free oats on an occasional basis, but I can't eat it daily. Therefore, any diet which contains bread, a lot of oats, etc. means I have to start "tweaking" the diet to eliminate these things and figure out how to appropriately replace them. I also have casein intolerance, although I seem able to tolerate small amounts of dairy. But for example, eating cottage cheese on a daily basis upsets my digestive system and bloats me up. Ditto for yogurt. I do better with tiny amounts of cheese, but again, not a lot.
So I'm left with a diet of meats, fish, veggies, moderate but limited fruit (mostly apples, grapefruit, peaches, berries). And the things I eat lead to pretty low calorie levels. So in terms of caloric levels, I look low. And despite low calorie levels, the fat isn't coming off as I'd like. I've put on a good amount of muscle already and should therefore have a slightly better metabolism because of it, but I still don't see that midsection fat loss. So I'm very frustrated and don't know what to try next.
Perhaps your fat loss troubleshoot would be different and helpful, but not if it includes a lot of gluten and dairy in the nutrition part of things.
Fat Loss Happens in the Kitchen
Linear Mode
