The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
I am getting down and down in bf% and am starting to look a bit sick now. My friends are friendly but worriedly calling me "stick girl" or "twiggy" now. Others are gently telling me that I need to quit losing weight. I feel weak overall but am not otherwise feeling badly in anyway and the diet is going well. I am lifting pretty heavy still though I have had to quit most all of my cardio. And quite honestly while it is cool to have a 6 pack, I am not wild about being this little.
With the exception of a small roll of fat around my middle section (very low, including my lower back) my body is smok'n HOT and I have achieved all my goals in this cut.
So my question is with regards to that small roll (probably an inch when pinched) I realize that I cannot spot remove this fat. What I am worried about is that I cannot ever remove it. Is it possibly the case that this is just where my body stores and it will never go away without surgery? I already have skin hanging and will have to have that removed but am wondering if I will also have to remove the fat that way.
If not then would my best strategy be to continue with the bf% drop until it goes away or would I be best doing another bulk and cut? Which option would give me better results or more long term and better results? I prefer to not have any sugery.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
I am getting down and down in bf% and am starting to look a bit sick now. My friends are friendly but worriedly calling me "stick girl" or "twiggy" now. Others are gently telling me that I need to quit losing weight. I feel weak overall but am not otherwise feeling badly in anyway and the diet is going well. I am lifting pretty heavy still though I have had to quit most all of my cardio. And quite honestly while it is cool to have a 6 pack, I am not wild about being this little...
Kfish,
You got me worried, and I hope Leigh will chime in.
I notice you didn't call yourself 'sick hot.' Are you training for something specific, like fitness modeling or a competition? That could change my concerns, but if not...
(Wow, you sound so much like my sister!)
If you're feeling weak and others around you are concerned about your weight, I would suggest you listen to your friends and stop dieting for a bit. If you have further doubts past their concerns, find your best non-bullshit friend and ask him/hern to be flat honest.
Then listen.
I say this with love and understanding, as I had to call my sister out on the carpet when she became anorexic (which I am not accusing you of, by the way).
She had no idea how she looked to others, and she couldn't figure out why she was so tired (and why it hurt for her to sit for more than 20 minutes). She didn't hear what her friends and our family were saying. Finally, My mom called me home for a visit and I saw she had exercised herself down to super thin (5'6" and 96-100lbs at her FUNCTIONING lowest). When I got back to my house, I wrote her a long letter detailing everyone's concern and the fact that "I'm not gonna give you a kidney" when she eventually fell ill. Tough love, but it worked.
I love to hear that you have a six pack, but not if folks can see it 'cause you passed out on the floor .
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfisherx
...So my question is with regards to that small roll (probably an inch when pinched) I realize that I cannot spot remove this fat. What I am worried about is that I cannot ever remove it. Is it possibly the case that this is just where my body stores and it will never go away without surgery? I already have skin hanging and will have to have that removed but am wondering if I will also have to remove the fat that way...
Sounds like it might be skin, not fat...and you sound like my sister does to this day about her 'thigh roll.'
She obsesses about a small pat of skin/fat where her thighs meet SLIGHTLY at the top (today she weighs 115-118 lbs-- still 5'6"). It's the only place where her legs DO MEET...and it's genetic, because my Mom has it, as do I and my brother.
If your little roll of skin defied you achieveing a six pack, it might just be part of your genetic legacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfisherx
...If not then would my best strategy be to continue with the bf% drop until it goes away or would I be best doing another bulk and cut? Which option would give me better results or more long term and better results? I prefer to not have any sugery.
Take it from someone who has had a lipo consult on my torso when I was far larger than you are now (I didn't carry as much weight there): no reputable plastic surgeon will touch such slim areas unless they are disproportinately larger than the rest of you. The result could leave you looking like Play Dough. Celebrities Tara Reid and Mickey Rourke had lipo on slim areas on their torsos and the results were disastrous.
Maybe I just did a huge information dump, and I'm sorry for that, but my bells went off because I've had a version of this conversation before.
BEFORE you do another cut, I'd get a consult with a fitness professional (maybe shoot Leigh some pix)...and then a reputable plastic surgeon's consult if you must.
Sorry to go on. I know I'm being presumptuous...
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I really should leave the house...
are you sure it is fat? It could be loose skin leftover from being heavier, having babies, etc. Also, as we get older skin loses elasticity so a 20 something person might be able to cut down from a higher weigh/bf to lower bf and have the skin snap back but once you get into your 40's, not so much.
IMO dieting down more is not going to help the situation without risking your health or the appearance of the rest of you. Older women don't look so good at very low BF. not saying you are old of course but I believe you are in your 40's right? Women over a certain age just start looking gaunt/drawn when really thin. Is it worth it to look bad to *maybe* have that little roll go away that probably no one notices but yourself?
Older women don't look so good at very low BF. not saying you are old of course but I believe you are in your 40's right? Women over a certain age just start looking gaunt/drawn when really thin. Is it worth it to look bad to *maybe* have that little roll go away that probably no one notices but yourself?
I think this is where the bulk and cut comes in. If Karla bulks up, then reduces fat again, there will be more of her... but it will be muscle. (And can I just say that she looks amazing already!!!)
I think this is where the bulk and cut comes in. If Karla bulks up, then reduces fat again, there will be more of her... but it will be muscle. (And can I just say that she looks amazing already!!!)
yeah but loose skin is loose skin, not going to change with a bulk/cut.
She is already pretty lean. Many people due to genetics can get very lean but still have some stubborn fat in one area. If she is lean everywhere and just has a little bit in one area then I don't see how a bulk/cut will affect that one little area (which seems to be what she is concerned with).
It is why so many models/actresses and I am sure some fitness/figure competitors have lipo done.
I'd say that it's time to stop. My friend who does bodybuilding competitions once said that he realized bodybuilding was one of the LEAST healthy things he could do to his body, with all the cutting and dehydrating, etc etc...
If you're weak, you're not being healthy anymore. The skin is probably skin, not fat... and even if it is fat, there's a level of ESSENTIAL fat that you need. If you really plan to have surgery, then that miniscule bit of fat probably could be taken off - ask the doctor...
Close to competition time, most bodybuilders look like concentration camp survivors, especially around their face where the fat-loss is extremely obvious...
What are your goals? Stop and think about it, write a pro/con list for losing more... Do you want to be HEALTHY and feel good???
Guys let me put this in perspective. I am registering 12.4% on the omron which is probably 14% or so real body fat. I have essential bf still and can go another 2-3% I think without much effort or consequences to my health. I have no intention to do the dehydration/show thing. Also I am not weak by any means. Yesterday I lifted 6,750 lbs in one working set. That said, I am weaker by far than I was in the bulk and I don't feel like I can keep up the cardio that I used to do anymore and keep up the lift. Still I am lifting pretty good so am not sick weak.
I don't feel like I have any issues regarding my body. The transformation I have made in the past year is nothing short of miraculous. Most of my big fat belly is totally gone. I love it and embrace the way I look overall but am trying to fine tune here. Personally, I like myself best when I am in the 15% bf range (by my scale). Given that my intention is to one day settle in that area and do mini-bulks and cuts around that.
Right now I am attempting my first cut and I wanted it to go pretty low so that I can see what I have and if I can show. I feel like I have accomplished the goal of understanding if I mentally have what it takes to show. I know for a fact now that I can do it. I still am not sure about the physical part based on this one stubborn fat area. So, I also wanted to see if going way down in bf% would move this last bit of fat. Like I said, I know I can do it pretty easily now.
I am re-reading Lyle McDonald's book now as it actually really pertains to me now. He does not suggest that I can spot reduce but he does claim that his protocol will help move this fat. I am a bit afraid to jump into his protocol because it is pretty severe and cardio intesnse given my current bf% and energy levels. I want to keep as much energy as I can for heavy lifting.
Lots of options and lots of opinions..... Not sure where to go....
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
1. I am not sure that this isn't just skin. I think it isn't but my trainer did comment that it was probably skin. I am positive that the back fat is fat still.
2. I do have access to professionals and have used a trainer for this up until just this month. I am losing very slowly and methodically at a rate of 1lb or less a week due to his and others input. It is essential to me that I do not drop much weight and only lose bf%. Additionally I have access to another bber trainer and I also use this board for advise. I am not doing this alone at all.
3. Wrt friends and their coments. I try to take these comments with a grain. For the most part people are pretty screwed up with respect to body weight nowadays. They are so used to seeing overweight and obese people that when someone comes around who is "normal" they get unfairly labled. That is more what is happening here. Also remember that I came around from being obese to this new look and I think that freaks people out who know me. (I know it still freaks me out when I look in a mirror sometimes) Just as a point of reference. I am still well within the "normal" range on the BMI charts and I am trying really hard to NOT lose weight as I drop the bf%.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
...IMO dieting down more is not going to help the situation without risking your health or the appearance of the rest of you. Older women don't look so good at very low BF. not saying you are old of course but I believe you are in your 40's right? Women over a certain age just start looking gaunt/drawn when really thin. Is it worth it to look bad to *maybe* have that little roll go away that probably no one notices but yourself?
It would be worth it to me to look gaunt for a little while if that would cut the fat so I can do another even and clean bulk. So far I have cut this fat so much that it is nearly gone. Everyone is supprized at how even and distributed that area now looks compared to before. I have always (in the past years) been skinny fat.
I feel as if I got this fat store from my bad eating habits not from Mother Nature. Other than this little area, bf distribution on my body is amazingly even. You cannot see it when I put on 10lbs and even when I was obese it looked pretty okay. The fat started to collect in my youth when I stopped eating breakfast and lunch (started smoking) and only ate at night.. This eating habit continued into my early 40's and often times I starved my body with big ass binges here and there. I also did massive amounts of cardio while I starved my body. So I think that is why the fat is stored there. (perhaps I am wrong but that is my current theory...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolG
I think this is where the bulk and cut comes in. If Karla bulks up, then reduces fat again, there will be more of her... but it will be muscle. (And can I just say that she looks amazing already!!!)
Thanks Carol. I am 45 years old and do look and feel amazing! I am also leaning on this theory. I know the value of a good bulk. That is how I lost most of the initial fat roll and how that area got more distributed.
Decisions... decisions....
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Karla, can you post your pictures here? I'm not sure where you have them posted or I'd go look myself. My point being that one person's version of "skinny" is not the same as anothers and it might help to have the pictures actually here to look at ... one thing I think you need to consider is that if you are not doing this for the aesthetic, then does it really matter if others think you are too skinny? (ie as we get older, thinner does not always look as good in the face and other parts that we see when clothed ... I remember reading something about a famous French actress gaining 15 lbs as she got older because it looked better on her ... thinner looked gaunt).
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
I have not read the entire thread so forgive me if this was covered.
I have seen your pictures, you have loose skin issues in your stomach area. On what level it will "bounce" back I am not sure given your age. Not to say it can't, just saying the odds are a little against you. You will not know how well it will bounce back for at least 6-10 months (sometimes longer) and while staying at roughly your current body comp level.
There is also always a worse look to the skin while in a deficit, some of it will look better when not depleted and in a maintenance state. You could see/test what your look like while having a full caloric and carb load, it may not be as severe as you think.
While you could still shed a little more body fat, and that choice is yours, I don't think from what I have seen at your level it is going to drastically change much in that area.
You have two options.
1-Surgery to removed it (aka Tummy Tuck)
2-Bulk very slowly to gain lean mass and fill it with muscle best you can and allow time for it to bounce back.
So, pretty much, you're asking for advice but not really wanting to go in any direction other than what you've already decided, then?
Huh? Where did you get that?? I am thinking that a bulk is the way to go here but not sure if it is because I am hearing from Lyle McDonald that there is a protocol that might work. I am wondering which way is best of the options I have. I realize that the lose skin will have to be surgically taken off. So of the two options do I go lower then I am now or bulk? My gut says bulk is right but am unsjure.
Julie, good point RE the pics. Here they are. I am a tiny bit learner than these pics now but not much. As you can see I am not sick lean.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Not "competitor lean" but still very lean, despite the loose "mommy" skin.
Again, it boils down to what your goal is ... is it for the aethetic? Well, if you think you look scrawny/skinny now, it will only get worse in dieting down without adding more muscle. You won't magically look like a fitness competitor/bodybuilder with an additional several pounds of fat gone.
Is it to prove you can? You already know you can. You are one of the most disciplined people on this board.
If your goal is ultimately to compete ... then you absolutely need to add more muscle. IMO you simply don't have enough. Yes, you are lean enough or nearly lean enough, (and obviously have the dedication to get there) but the muscle is not there. You look more like a marathon runner to me than a bodybuilder. You need a few more "muscle gaining" cycles to get the bodybuilder look.
JMO of course.
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
Thanks Julie. I am well aware that I cannot compete until I have had about 2 more years of training. I am thinking 2-3 more cycles. The trainers I work with think less but I am simply not built for it as you note. I am more of a runner or tri-athlete than a bber by nature. The good news is that I now know (with this cut) that I do have the discipline to do it should I want to.
The only real goal that I have is to lose that last tiny bit of fat around my middle. I guess it is asthetic more than anything. You know when I was 20 years old I was preggers with my 2nd child. I never had that 20-year old body and I guess I am now just wanting to see if I can get it. It has been a goal of mine for years to have that look. (Like 25 years in fact) Only now in my life can I afford the time and money to chase that dream.
I think you and Leigh are right on and it is how I am internally feeling too. I am not liking how skinny I am getting right now and my friends are all making me feel self concious about it now too. If it is the case that losing more will not help me to lose that stubborn fat area then I will begin to prepare for a bulk again and get proportioned that way. I am actually looking forward to lifting heavy and hard and crazy again anyway.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Maybe see if you can eat for putting on muscle, train for putting on muscle, and do a modified version of SFP to see if you can get that fat to shift. Worth asking Lyle about anyways (although he'll likely say you are mixing goals).
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
well Karen, if it helps at all from my non-bb, regular gal viewpoint your body looks amazing and I can't even see the fold you refer to. So, if aesthetics are what you are talking about your visual is fantastic. And if I saw you in that swimsuit at the pool I would be jealous as hell but inspired to work my ass off to look like you after two kids and a few years when i'm in my 40s. your hard work really shows.
Maybe see if you can eat for putting on muscle, train for putting on muscle, and do a modified version of SFP to see if you can get that fat to shift. Worth asking Lyle about anyways (although he'll likely say you are mixing goals).
Very interesting that you suggest this tact. I joined 24 Hour a couple o' weeks back and tonight I had my free trainer session. They hooked me up with the head trainer who was the only one qualified in the gym to take on an athlete (isn't that sad?)... Anyway, he suggested something very similar. He said that I should do swimming or something that I don't normally do (shock the body if you will) and increase my calories to maintain. I am worried that the cardio will make me lose muscle 'cause that is what I have experienced in this cut but maybe it won't be so bad if I eat more and get out of deficit. This guy thought for sure that I should not be in any deficit right now.
I have never seen Lyle post on this board so I am assuming you mean another board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcchuck
well Karen, if it helps at all from my non-bb, regular gal viewpoint your body looks amazing and I can't even see the fold you refer to. So, if aesthetics are what you are talking about your visual is fantastic. And if I saw you in that swimsuit at the pool I would be jealous as hell but inspired to work my ass off to look like you after two kids and a few years when i'm in my 40s. your hard work really shows.
Thank you so much for the compliments. I am thrilled with all the progress so far and very grateful to all the support that I receive here. Both in knowledge and in kudos. They are both awesome.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
If you put on your thick skin, there is lots of great info over at Body Recomposition Forums - Powered by vBulletin
Just beware that they are not always nice ... and there are some subforums you might find offensive (Porn, Hatin', etc).
But the folks posting there are generally very knowledgable ... and if you want answers to your SFP questions, that is Lyle's board and where he posts.
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
If I were you, I'd pretty much ignore anything that a 24 hour fitness trainer told me, head trainer or not. They are woefully undertrained and generally piss-poor trainers; there are always exceptions, of course, but do a little internet research and you'll see what I mean. I think there's a 24 hr fitness sucks site that gives many egregious examples, and this is not a gym that cares about its members one iota.
If you put on your thick skin, there is lots of great info over at Body Recomposition Forums - Powered by vBulletin
Just beware that they are not always nice ... and there are some subforums you might find offensive (Porn, Hatin', etc).
But the folks posting there are generally very knowledgable ... and if you want answers to your SFP questions, that is Lyle's board and where he posts.
If you put on your thick skin, there is lots of great info over at Body Recomposition Forums - Powered by vBulletin
Just beware that they are not always nice ... and there are some subforums you might find offensive (Porn, Hatin', etc).
But the folks posting there are generally very knowledgable ... and if you want answers to your SFP questions, that is Lyle's board and where he posts.
You saying Im mean, Julie? Wanna fight?
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
Not you Manuel ... but the people over there don't mince words ... and I have thin skin. I'm not used to being called stupid or worse ... and I cry easily!! You'll see I joined a long time ago, but have yet to make a post!!
It's nothing personal ... I have emailed Lyle and he was very helpful. You and Matt both are very helpful here ... finding that fine line and giving a bit of politeness and courtesy while still being bluntly honest. I appreciate it honestly!!
But the courtesy that folks have here is not present at BR ...
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Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
Hey Julie, I thought you said the guys were thick skinned--GQart seems like a sensitive guy! (I'm just joshin', Art guy--don't beat me up!!)
Imho, Karen, you don't need to diet any more. You will look AMAZING if you just add muscle--we older people really need to fill out our skin. I bet that "fat" will disappear--I've heard it time and again from others. You have done such a great job, I'm in awe of your iron will!
Thanks a million to all of you. Julie, I read your post over and over today and let the words sink in. Thanks for writing them and for the introspection that they are giving me. I do need to spend some time understanding my "goal" and my motivation right now.
I also have a TON of information to digest before I can make up my mind about what to do. In the interim I have decided to bump up calories to maintain level. If I begin to get more engergy (I expect I will) then I can do some cardio too. I will visit Lyle's board after I have had another read on his book.
I also realized today that my motivation and goals might be influenced by head factors. I am pulled to just dump the weight and go way down until this melts off. Losing the weight is easier for me. I excell because I am in control. Weirdly, I looked fat today in the mirror in my eyes. My throat closed and I wanted to run back to the cut. The head trips that I go through are simply terrible still. I had thought that most of those deamons were left behind after my last bulk. Still I have to bravely face this as I did last time and embrace the eating. I wonder if this will ever get easier?
Thanks again for all your help. I will spend a week or so digesting all the information I have and make a move after that time.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
I have not read the entire thread so forgive me if this was covered.
I have seen your pictures, you have loose skin issues in your stomach area. On what level it will "bounce" back I am not sure given your age. Not to say it can't, just saying the odds are a little against you. You will not know how well it will bounce back for at least 6-10 months (sometimes longer) and while staying at roughly your current body comp level.
There is also always a worse look to the skin while in a deficit, some of it will look better when not depleted and in a maintenance state. You could see/test what your look like while having a full caloric and carb load, it may not be as severe as you think.
While you could still shed a little more body fat, and that choice is yours, I don't think from what I have seen at your level it is going to drastically change much in that area.
You have two options.
1-Surgery to removed it (aka Tummy Tuck)
2-Bulk very slowly to gain lean mass and fill it with muscle best you can and allow time for it to bounce back.
Werd. We cant all be supple, nubile women like Leigh.
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
I also realized today that my motivation and goals might be influenced by head factors. I am pulled to just dump the weight and go way down until this melts off. Losing the weight is easier for me. I excell because I am in control. Weirdly, I looked fat today in the mirror in my eyes. My throat closed and I wanted to run back to the cut. The head trips that I go through are simply terrible still. I had thought that most of those deamons were left behind after my last bulk. Still I have to bravely face this as I did last time and embrace the eating. I wonder if this will ever get easier?
.
honey, this is what worries me, this thought pattern is SO SIMILAR to mine when I was anorexic. Please rethink your goals, from an "outside of yourself" point of view.
I admit that I walk the line a bit and that I have trashed my body in the past from undereating. I know that this can be a slippery and dangerous slope for me. That said I have already come a long, long way. I managed to lose very slowly this cut and with much health. The other good news is that I did manage a bulk last winter and I know I can do another one. I am going to face this monster head on again. I just wish that it would fucking go away and that I would not have to keep looking at it.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Karla,
From what I saw in your photos, there definitely is obsession going on. It did look like skin, not fat.
Also, I have seen friends lose weight, but the loss not be distributed over their body, but over the next 6 months or so, they looked more balanced out and healthy.
In my opinion (as someone who wants to get lean), you look so beautiful and glowing and healthy in your avatar, and you looked undernourished and almost ill in your 3 photos, espec the back view of your bones.
I don't know what that means about weight training and muscle building, but I suggest you not lose more pounds/fat.
Etana
in her direct and compassionate manner...
You are a role model in doing what it takes...
Direction check (go really low or...)
.
but I believe you are in your 40's right? Women over a certain age just start looking gaunt/drawn when really thin. Is it worth it to look bad to *maybe* have that little roll go away that probably no one notices but yourself?
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