The Fat Loss TroubleshootThis is your place to troubleshoot your fat loss problems from nutrition to training. This section is led by Leigh Peele, author of "The Fat Loss Troubleshoot," the ultimate fat loss manual. If your results have slowed or stalled this is the place to come for advice for all your fat loss needs.
IMO (but I find myself really doing it), we sit on our butts even more when we are eating less. The less we eat and the more we workout, the more tired and fatigued we are, so we slow down on taking out the trash, walking the dog, fixing things around the house, etc. Putting them off until some mysterious phantom time when we will have more energy...
My house is cleaner when I'm not dieting down, for instance. The last month, I've made a conscious effort to change that and keep up my after work activity.
OK, That make sense.. Thanks Roland. I guess I haven't noticed, because my "this has to be done tonight" list never seems to be empty. But now that I think about it, I have "pussied-out" on TKD a couple of night in the past, because I just "didn't feel like going".
And this is where Leigh says that if dieting down is your goal, keep your activity level up ... so if your workouts are fatiguing you to the point that your overall activity level goes down, consider lessening the intensity of the workout.
For example ... in a 45-minute comfortable paced walk I will burn approximately 300 calories (according to the bodybugg). In a 45-minute NROL4W weight training session, I will also burn between 250-300 calories. After the NROL4W workout, all I want to do is lie in bed or on the sofa reading or watching movies. But, after the walk, I still have the energy to clean my house, play with my kids, garden etc. So with the walk, my overall calorie expenditure for the day is higher, simply because it does not drain me to the point where I am existing at BMR only.
Although I love and miss my really intense workouts, FOR ME, when dieting down, my workouts need to be much less intense simply because my life is crazy and I can't recover sufficiently from the more intense workouts and still keep my daily activity level up.
Does that make sense?
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Yeah, I suppose that won't work. Hard to create muscle endurance in a calorie deficit.
Actually it is easier to create muscle endurance in a deficit, harder to increase maximum strength/mass.
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My bad.. After re-reading what I wrote I should have explained myself better and my be screwing up the terminology.
While I did have days I could keep eating and never felt full. I didn't, I stayed with my calorie goal. When I stated I was 80% faithful, I was referring to macros, not calorie goal. I would guess since January I have been over my calorie limit maybe a dozen times and over my BMR half of those. Still not great, but I will start tracking better.
I know I can come across as anal but when you see a decrease in progression there are only a few places you can go, the easiest is the deficit being created by properly tracking food intake.
The next is things like NEAT decrease, training decrease, and overall "effort" falling back. There is also just getting burned out. 9/10 though the first is the general culprit.
Remember, the body doesn't want you to do this so it will do what it can to slow you down.
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I see what you are talking about.. I will have to go back and see what my nutrient was like before that week of lifting. I had one week, during the NROL fat loss I phase that the lifting went smooth, I believe it was workouts #3 and #4 of both A and B. Not certain if I can contribute this to the lower of the set reps or not. During this part of the workout routine, the reps per set were reduced from 15 to 12 while reducing the RI from 75 seconds to 60 seconds. But as my log shows a did add weight during most workouts, which I guess doesn't make sense, if you can't gain any strength while in a calorie deficit.
Don't get me wrong you can increase strength, you can make progressions but SOMETHING is going to give at a point to keep doing so on a easy level. Usually what happens is our training gets all of our energy focus but we crash everywhere else.
With food, we get that big meal in or nibble here or there that seems like a 100 but adds up to 1000 by the end of the week.
So if training is going easy, too easy, then that can be a sign to some degree.
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I did feel like the quiz didn't ask me about my night time habits enough when it gave me my activity number, but thought maybe I was reading too much into it. Here is a basic week of my life
Job: computer programmer so I am sitting on my butt all day
Workouts: I was going to the gym at noon and lifting for 45-60 minutes on M, W, and F. I followed the NROL FLI routine to a T for rest intervals and all, so it was pretty serious lifting.
Night: Karate (TKD) on Tues and Thurs (roughly 45-60 minutes each night). TKD Sparring Friday (60 - 90 minutes, actually matches maybe half that time). Usually some type of home project, home carpentry, painting, cleaning, yard work for a couple hours, then relaxing.
Weekends: Sat mornings kickboxing 45-60 minutes. Usually some type of home project, home carpentry, painting, cleaning, yard work for rest of the weekend.
You always have to give a logical thought to movement. For example...
at your size when you sit, if all is pretty normal, you burn roughly 1.4 calories per min in sleep and in sitting. Anything else that is movement can range from 2.0 a min to 10.0 or more. So like I said decrease at a moderate level and then bump it up harder to get it done until you find you are starting to slow down, sabotage, or just binge.
To me you seem like you would put together a pretty healthy burn and will find it not to hard to get really run down if things are too aggressive.
Re-feed every so often for a few days and then jump back in but MONITOR the re-feeds, don't go nuts, keep it smart. Remember overeating helps up with our hormones but it is also what gets us fat in the first place.
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What do you suggest for endurance both muscular and cardio?
Everything that everyone hates. High Reps, longer sessions, less rest times. With your training needs I would save the high joint and impact work for training only and hit more lower impact cardio like ellipticals/swimming for your aerobic threshold work. Favorite though would be jump roping but on support mats. You build up endurance and the reaction/coordination you need for you training BUT doing it on mats takes some of the strain off the joints.
Just make sure to keep your pre/post nutrition solid. It doesn't have to be expensive, just some Whey/Gatorade will be fine but you don't want to get burned out by not supporting your workouts. These workouts AREN'T for fat loss, that is what your life is for. This work outs should be in support of your training and might burn some extra calories for you. Mix that with proper protein and your LBM should be fine and you should gain some endurance and increase in your training some even in a deficit. Might even still pack on a bit mass too at your level still with some ease.
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Thanks SOOOOOO much for your help. I will heed and follow your recommendations. If it would make more sense to continue this conversation in a PM, we can, I don't want to bog down this thread, due to my confusion/ineptness.
Not everyone can afford the book, not everyone wants it. The info here is still good regardless and it helps to educate people. Plus it is all in one spot which my unorganized self loves.
And this is where Leigh says that if dieting down is your goal, keep your activity level up ... so if your workouts are fatiguing you to the point that your overall activity level goes down, consider lessening the intensity of the workout.
For example ... in a 45-minute comfortable paced walk I will burn approximately 300 calories (according to the bodybugg). In a 45-minute NROL4W weight training session, I will also burn between 250-300 calories. After the NROL4W workout, all I want to do is lie in bed or on the sofa reading or watching movies. But, after the walk, I still have the energy to clean my house, play with my kids, garden etc. So with the walk, my overall calorie expenditure for the day is higher, simply because it does not drain me to the point where I am existing at BMR only.
Although I love and miss my really intense workouts, FOR ME, when dieting down, my workouts need to be much less intense simply because my life is crazy and I can't recover sufficiently from the more intense workouts and still keep my daily activity level up.
So, how do you create a program to build strength without making workouts that make you want to go to bed for two days afterward?
And isn't the whole premise of NROL4W that you have to eat to be able to do Alwyn's program? But what I hear (and have experienced) is if you're dieting (i.e. eat in a deficit and cut calories, which is what you have to do to lose fat, right?) then how in the world can a person eat enough, but not too much and still have strength to continue with the day's tasks?
I'm trying to do Alwyn's NROLW program and integrate it with Leigh's FLTS. I'm eating at a deficit and I acknolwedge I won't make massive STRENGTH gains (but I'm making some). My goal is to lose fat while minimizing lean tissue loss, and I also just plain love liftin' so I don't want to stop doing it.
I've put some SS cardio back in and only do HIIT once or maybe twice a week at most... making sure to get enough rest and not eating at such a huge deficit that I die of exhaustion.
It's a constant questioning and back-and-forth tweaking... If you ONLY want to build strength, just eat lots more and you won't collapse for 2 days afterwards. It's the caloric deficit combined with the workout that sends you to bed... at least that's what it seems to be in logs I've read here and in my own experience...
So, how do you create a program to build strength without making workouts that make you want to go to bed for two days afterward?
And isn't the whole premise of NROL4W that you have to eat to be able to do Alwyn's program? But what I hear (and have experienced) is if you're dieting (i.e. eat in a deficit and cut calories, which is what you have to do to lose fat, right?) then how in the world can a person eat enough, but not too much and still have strength to continue with the day's tasks?
It seems like there's a very thin line to walk.
I was finding that actually the best way to do this (not with nr4w, just in general with intense workouts while trying to lose weight) is that if you can't spend all the rest of your time resting...
small deficit. Very small. The thing about alwyn's workouts here is that if you're what I'd think of as "normal" you're raising your metabolism to meat the increased caloric intake. Then, you can afford to dip back down a bit to be in a deficit, but still eating plenty to get you through your day and the workouts.
However, I've found it to be, at times, a terribly thin line for me. I did my best recomp at 200 calories below maintenance. And weight didn't change, but I was getting defined. It was that sweet spot of what at least seems like putting on muscle while losing fat... and maybe it was... or at least adding other lean mass like blood volume, muscle density... while slowly peeling off layers of fat.
I still required a refeed every couple weeks, because there would be days I just couldn't eat enough... but I was careful and had very clean refeeds of mainly protein or veggies that were filling but not caloricly dense.
But if I overall ate more or less things would change and I'd either lack energy or stop seeing progress. *sigh*
So were Aoife, were you tracking to the T what went into your mouth? I am just not sure I can do that. It's just a choice I'll have to do some soul searching over.
So were Aoife, were you tracking to the T what went into your mouth? I am just not sure I can do that. It's just a choice I'll have to do some soul searching over.
I know you weren't asking me, but I spent the last 2 weeks tracking every bite. It's the first time I've seen real progress in a while (til this weekend, but that's another sad story)... Even if you don't track everything, know that it DOES make a big difference when you measure and don't estimate and don't eat a bite here or there that you forget to log... they add up way more than I ever wanted to admit.
It's all a choice though, right? You seem to have made some great progress from the pics you posted, so what you're doing seems to be working...
So were Aoife, were you tracking to the T what went into your mouth? I am just not sure I can do that. It's just a choice I'll have to do some soul searching over.
Yes.
Everything.
It's easier if I plan ahead. I don't make elaborate meals, I don't have a lot of guesswork. I'm vegetarian. A lot of my food is pre-packaged veggie stuff that therefore is easy to measure and count.
What was easiest is to decide how many calories each meal would be and then just add up and eat that. If I decided on 400 cal meals (then I'd have 4 a day, at the time) it would be then just make the sandwich (100bread+100cheese+100protein ) and then add the fruit (another 100) and done.
For Otto I would simply make meals that were 500 calories, pack them up, and he'd eat 5 a day and then have an under 500 snack. Done.
I will grant you that we're kinda anal people who don't hate tracking, don't have kids, and have just gotten used to the fact that we're gonna eat the same thing a lot. People usually think they want more variety than they really do.
The only things I wouldn't count were lettuce on sandwiches or a small pickle. But if I was having a salad, I counted that 20 cal of lettuce.
It was just easiest to make a recipe and measure before hand. I mean, you measure when you make a cake, right? You don't say... well, a couple handfuls of flour should do....
So we made recipes that were a pound of meat, X ounces of pasta, Y grams of sauce (for instance) and then knew the whole thing was gonna be 1500 cals and then just divide it up equally and store.
So, how do you create a program to build strength without making workouts that make you want to go to bed for two days afterward?
And isn't the whole premise of NROL4W that you have to eat to be able to do Alwyn's program? But what I hear (and have experienced) is if you're dieting (i.e. eat in a deficit and cut calories, which is what you have to do to lose fat, right?) then how in the world can a person eat enough, but not too much and still have strength to continue with the day's tasks?
It seems like there's a very thin line to walk.
I think to some degree you have to ask yourself what wins? Are you a strength trainer or are you in fat loss and are just going to get it done.
Fat loss has become a lifestyle and it shouldn't be.
Fat loss has become a recurring playing field and training ground when it should just be a quick visit and a handicap.
Training while TRYING to be in a constant deficit is becoming far to common.
The problem with what I see a lot of people around here doing is you are going hard at two goals and one is going to give, and that is usually the fat loss. Let's be honest, it is a lot easier to focus on a 45 min training session then to live in strong deficit.
I will say again that fat loss is not a time to break 1RM's. Fat loss is not a time to become the best version of your training self. Fat loss is a time to maintain that best version of yourself and get through it without doing damage.
Question then is, why do we focus on trying to increase muscle mass in a fat loss phase?
The average person these days only starts training to lose fat. Before that time they never touched a weight on any real level. Obviously any new training is going to increase muscle mass, deficit or not.
Mix that new mass with a loss of fat and the outcome is a nice "tone" body. However, the forest is being not only blocked by the trees but Smokey the Bear and his 2nd and 3rd cousins.
NROL and NROL4W is NOT a fat loss program.
It is a training program and has things you can implement to use for fat loss...for some. It is really aggressive and tough, the average person will find it hard if they have a larger amount of fat to lose to stand up and take the needs of that program for a long time in a deficit. Mostly they will find a way to feed themselves just enough to not burn out to bad but always too much to see any real fat loss.
Some people, not all, but some just aren't meant to train like that during fat loss. Some people need to just diet down, keep up their protein, keep up the light cardio and general activity, do a LITTLE maintenance training for KEEPING LBM and get it done.
Sometimes metabolic training just means "makes me really freaking tired and hungry". This kind of training can make it really easy to turn inward to yourself and say "Eh I worked out so hard today, I don't want to get run down, so I will hit 1800, that is still a 500 deficit."
Well what if you NEAT has lowered from all that aggressive training?
What if your calories are off by just 170 calories?
What if that 500 turns to 289?
Welcome to being a fat loss lifer where just one day out of two weeks of being non compliance over 500 or so calories sets you back.
Any good coach would say, if it isn't working for you, stop doing it and try something that does.
Fat loss is a broken bone to your training system. Get in, set the cast, and get it off.
I am just thankful that some of you have been kind enough to let me sign it.
Thanks Leigh! I am going to have to read that 5 or 6 times to get all the stuff, but trust me...I WILL read it 5 or 6 times. I am in the process of revamping my whole thinking about exercise/fat loss/strength/etc and am so glad to have your voice weighing in on the subject.
Thanks Leigh! I am going to have to read that 5 or 6 times to get all the stuff, but trust me...I WILL read it 5 or 6 times. I am in the process of revamping my whole thinking about exercise/fat loss/strength/etc and am so glad to have your voice weighing in on the subject.
I'll chime in and agree with Bytsi and Aoife. After getting very detailed with my food logs, I'm seeing progress and I'm not doing much for activity other than running back and forth to the printer that's around the corner, running back and forth to the bathroom, and walking to and from the bus. I'm also trying to really think about what's going on when I'm eating. My friend River over on the O2 is amazed at the level of thought I'm devoting to my eating at this point, because not paying attention to macros and calories was definitely not working. But overall I'm seeing downward trend and that helps me to be compliant when I want to get a cookie or do something stupid because it's easy.
__________________ It all starts with the mind, but the thoughts, the intention aren't enough. Action needs to come next. Dream it, believe it, plan it, execute it, celebrate it. - Wendy
See Tina you are missing the philosophical representation that the sandwich and its tongue stand for in this instance.
The tyranny and oppression of carbs over the past decade has lead to a chastisement of our beloved grain.
What this picture depicts, so deeply and with such grace, is that I believe in a utopias view where the abs and the pulchritudinous sandwich can exist.
But seriously, Leigh, The info in this this thread...wow....the post about training for two goals...that is so me. The way you phrased it here turned on a serious light bulb. I'm going to do Maximum Strength first, but then it will be cut time, and I have a feeling I'll come running your way again.
Now that the server is back up, I can finally ask some more question for you to clarify..
Following your recommendations, I have moved my cardio work from HIIT to elliptical training at my AT, but my question deals with the resistance training.
I have been doing the NROL Fat Loss I, which which starts at 3 sets of 15 reps supersets of 2 exercises with s RI of 75 secs. As you progress through the program, your reps and and rest times are reduced until you get to 10 reps with a 45 sec RI.
You stated above that my resistance program should be high reps with shorter rest times. What would be your suggestion, I was think of lifting Tues and Thurs, 3 sets of 15 with a RI of 60 secs.
Is that going to work for endurance and fat loss??
Is that going to be too stress/impact for my joints??
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