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Diet, Nutrition and Supplementation Post here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.

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Old 10-21-2005, 02:17 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I'm a little stuck on what to eat when training for what would be considered an "exteme" time period (8+ hours).

Traditional mindset says carbs are important, stable, the bible of nutrient needs during cardio training.

HOWEVER...let me run through the process here as I understand it (which may be wrong).

When excersising at an elevated threshold your body uses carbs as energy. Do to the availibility of them stored in your muscles, a natural dependancy, and fat becoming difficult to process do to lack of o2. So carbs become necissary to avoid hitting "the wall".

Where is the drop off point though to where this occurs? I've read that it is possible to gain effiency at fat oxidazation...creating more usable fat energy from o2 and carbs thru intense prolonged endurance training and possibly from a reduced carb diet in general.

Is it possible or even likely that with a persistant diet and excersise regiment that you could reasonibly stay below that window to where carbs are absolutely necissary to maintain an aerobic threshold for an extended period of time?

And just to muddy the waters a little more. Protein breaks down...to create energy (ironically enough) so there comes a point to where protien intake is important. Would it not be better to have some protein in your system as is...possibly in the form of caisin to maintain a nutrient stream to the muscles to help prevent or at least minimalize protein breakdown?

What would you eat\drink, if maintaining energy levels during prolonged cardio sessions? (8+ hours)
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It would help to know exactly what activity we are talking about doing. Are you running straight for 8 hours? Is it more of an adventure course thing? Etc..

Off the top of my head though what you eat and drink is partially dependant on what your system can take. During a strongman contest (which can last up to 6 hours) I am not active the whole time but even then I can't really eat anything or I will be sick to my stomach. I also cannot have a durning workout drink with Whey protein cause it makes me want to puke.


I am digging up my exercise phy book though to give you and official science like answer to your question just because I love you.

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Old 10-21-2005, 03:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
When excersising at an elevated threshold your body uses carbs as energy. Do to the availibility of them stored in your muscles, a natural dependancy, and fat becoming difficult to process do to lack of o2. So carbs become necissary to avoid hitting "the wall".
The body uses fat and carbs both durning anything aerobic with a natural tendancy to use fat early on to save carbs for later when O2 is not so easy to get. When hitting the wall, it usually happens when the body becomes depleted of glycogen so now it has to start relying on other means to get energy.

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Where is the drop off point though to where this occurs? I've read that it is possible to gain effiency at fat oxidazation...creating more usable fat energy from o2 and carbs thru intense prolonged endurance training and possibly from a reduced carb diet in general.
By drop off point are you refering to when someone hits the wall? Because from what I am reading it seems to be around 18-24 miles during a marathon for most runners. From some research it seems that the average person can run for about 10 miles on stored glycogen if doing so on an empty stomach. Not sure about gaining ability at fat oxidation. It makes sense though and I am sure someone else will be able to jump in.

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Is it possible or even likely that with a persistant diet and excersise regiment that you could reasonibly stay below that window to where carbs are absolutely necissary to maintain an aerobic threshold for an extended period of time?
Yes, this is where the winner seperates from the rest of the pack. The ability to remove the fatty acids from the blood to preserve glucose can be trained and some elite level marathoners can even support 70% of their power output with fatty acids. In average people it tends to be closer to 40% during optimal conditions.

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And just to muddy the waters a little more. Protein breaks down...to create energy (ironically enough) so there comes a point to where protien intake is important. Would it not be better to have some protein in your system as is...possibly in the form of caisin to maintain a nutrient stream to the muscles to help prevent or at least minimalize protein breakdown?
This is where what activity we are doing comes in. Gluconeogenesis (using protein for glucose) only comes in under fatigue situations and is a really ineffective way to gain energy so should be avoided if possible. Ideally the drink should have enough carbs to keep the body from using too much muscle tissue in the first place. But it seems like a good idea to at least have some amino acids in the mix. I wouldn't use casein or whey though, much too thick and would bog you down in the race and hurt performance. A branch chain amino acid mix seems like a better idea mixed with some dextrose for carbs. That is what I would drink if possible. Keep in mind it needs to be really really watered down though. The ratio given in my book is 5 grams of glucose to 100 ml of water. Too much glucose to water is going to actually slow you down and dehydrate you.


All the info I used here I took out of my exercise phy book, so if something is off, I either read it wrong or the authors messed something up. I am not a runner, especially at any sort of distance, so this is all hypotheical. I also hope its clear, I don't have a ton of time to write this, if it is unclear hopefully I can come clean it up later tonight.

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Old 10-22-2005, 02:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Thanks Danny. I'd like to eventually try this. But realisticly starting with something a little less roubust (50m road\trail run) and mabey working up to that if the good lord's a willin.

In practice it seems like most recommendations are to run (light jog) on flats and downhills and walk on uphills with breaks every 6 miles give or take at aide stations to make sure you're not going to die. It's possible if not likely to take walking breaks every so often (no real set times...mabey 10min out of every 60).

Saying that you burn fat at all times is valuible information right there. My main concern is getting enough calories and maintaining glycogen stores during the event\training so that you don't bonk. Which was the fat\carb intake question really.

In theory you may never *need* to take in mass carbs...having fat being synthasized into glycogen and used as fuel. Fat being more calorie dense would be easier to take in to meet calorie needs. But the window I was trying to say, was where the body wouldn't have the ability to synthisize the fat fast enough to accomplish that.

While some carbs would deffinately be ideal I'm not sure if the massive amounts reccommended would actually be practicle or needed?
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Old 10-23-2005, 12:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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That link seems crazy enough for me to eventually try. Geezus, I can't imagine having the time for training runs though...
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