Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
I know at least one member of this forum (and an older guy, at that) who has been at a level of below-maintenance calories for a very long time. He has lost fat (down to around 9 or 10 % bf, I believe) and has gained quite a bit of lean mass and strength.
What gives? Usually we read how guys who don't eat enough don't grow. I'll be entering a cutting phase soon to drop fat I've gained by bulking for three months (plus fat I had to begin with!) and I, minimally, don't want to lose any lean mass; in fact, I'd hope I can gain some.
Tough question Chris. I think it usually takes some tinkering around with calories and nutrients to find that target zone where fat is lost but muscle is preserved and even gained.
I have a nutrient calculator that works when I'm trying to shed fat relatively quickly. You can find it on the article link below, together with a sample menu: http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=145
Just to add to Johnka's advice, I know what you're talking about Chris. I've actually done it before, gained muscle and lost fat simultaneously. When you think about it, a lot of the time it may just be gaining muscle, because if you gain lean muscle mass with no change in total body fat weight, your body fat percentage goes down and so does the appearance of fat. Like a 250lbs guy with 10% body fat is pretty damn ripped as compared to someone like...cough..me..cough, not so ripped at 10% but pretty damn lean. I think this is more commonly the case but I have also lost total body fat and gained lean muscle mass at the same time too and how I did this was coming directly off a bulking cycle and dropping to 250kcals below maintenance, adding HIIT in and lifting heavy low reps (5x5, actually it was the R,R, & D program). I think a lot of it is also instinct, even if I count all my calories, I may be full at 3,200 versus my 3,800 I need and if I feel full that's when I stop because most of the time I probably miscounted or maybe I didn't burn as many that day. So I think a big part of it is instinct and listening and/or developing good communication with your body. That's my take on it, I do think it's very possible it just takes tinkering around like John said, experimenting with yourself, trying all sorts of things in small increments and listening to what your body is telling you and responding to it. I might also add, I've always ate a low carb diet naturally, I just plain out don't like carbohyrdates, I love all fruits and very few vegetables and thats all the carbs I get, just incase you were wondering about the diet I was on, I follow that diet year around.
It's happened to me. I was 180 for months and months. However, my bf% went from 16% to 13% in that time. My belly got noticably flatter (perhaps "smaller" is a better term), belt notches moved, veins started to show, etc.
That being said. I can't help but think that I would have made more progress in the fat loss had I done something differently. Not sure what, though.
I should note that I wasn't TRYING to do what I did. It just happened. I think it's best to focus on one thing and then move on to something else. Had I dropped fat and then bulked back up, I think it wouldn't have taken as long. The world will never know...
Thanks for the input, all. Stuff to consider. Since I can't always control the intensity of my martial arts training (even if I'm the instructor), that's at least one wild card that make calorie calculations challenging. Pretty typically, I'm always overeating or undereating. I have been assuming that I should drop the weight REALLY slowly. Am I correct in imagining that the ideal calorie level would be JUST SLIGHTLY ABOVE maintenance, so that muscle resources for building, but just enough? The ideal has to be in that "barely above or below maintenance" range, wouldn't you think?
Then again, who know what really happens with one's individual responses to training and diet. There are so many subtle changes and influences. The endocrine system is an amazing and mysterious thing.
I have done this by accident though I now know how I to do it. I run a very small deficit (5% below maintenance) in conjuction with lifting. Needless to say, with refeed days in place (only a bit above maintainence as my deficit was not severe) I lost fat, maintained and gained LBM. Fat loss is slow, but the results are worth it. Losing fat slowly means it is more likely to stay off.
Wow, my grammar and editing are really bad when I post later at night. (above) Sorry for the tough read, folks.
FLiP: How freequently have you done refeed days? I've neglected that approach in the past, but based on recent experience, I can appreciate the value of those.
On my biggest workout days I'd incorporate a refeed and whenever I feel I need one so 2-3 days a week. It's individual though. 1-3 days a week would be a good guideline (depending on your leanness) though a super refeed is not necessary as the deficit is so small.
Originally posted by Chris Correia: Thanks for the input, all. Stuff to consider. Since I can't always control the intensity of my martial arts training (even if I'm the instructor), that's at least one wild card that make calorie calculations challenging. Pretty typically, I'm always overeating or undereating. I have been assuming that I should drop the weight REALLY slowly. Am I correct in imagining that the ideal calorie level would be JUST SLIGHTLY ABOVE maintenance, so that muscle resources for building, but just enough? The ideal has to be in that "barely above or below maintenance" range, wouldn't you think?
Then again, who know what really happens with one's individual responses to training and diet. There are so many subtle changes and influences. The endocrine system is an amazing and mysterious thing.
Something that John Berardi was telling me is that he has the best results with his clients when they eat as many calories as possible without fat gain. Of course what you eat and when you eat it is the key. Something about the thermic effect of the food and the increased metabolism works wonders for body composition and performance. He was saying how he increased the calories of a runner from 2000 per day to over 3000, and she went from 20% bodyfat to 9% - with the training held constant!
Originally posted by Chris Correia: I know at least one member of this forum (and an older guy, at that) who has been at a level of below-maintenance calories for a very long time. He has lost fat (down to around 9 or 10 % bf, I believe) and has gained quite a bit of lean mass and strength.
Who is that?? Let us know so we can gang up and kick his ass! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Is it possible that he is actually very close to maintenance and simply thinks he is below because of an inapplicable RMR estimate? That is what happened to me....my actual tested resting metabolic rate came in 500 kcals/day less than I thought, and a full 800 kcals/day less than most of the predictors.
quote: On my biggest workout days I'd incorporate a refeed and whenever I feel I need one so 2-3 days a week.
do you mean before or after the big workout? [/quote]During the whole day. Clean foods, just extra calories. This method isn't best for maximum fat loss/muscle gain, the results are slow but the end result is pleasing imo.
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