Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
Good points... Still though I think PETA does more good than bad. I can understand why and how someone sooooo devoted would do something extreme. Yet again, look at history: Sometimes only the extreme things (radicals) get heard...
I don't agree with killing animals for food; it's mean, and unnecessary.
__________________
You live in too much of a logical world!
If you just stepped out of it and forgot the worldy limits, ANYTHING & EVERYTHING would be possible... - anna kubit
Originally posted by dos: Danny, some good points. I think many people dive into veggie diets thinking that it will automatically be healthy and simple. There ARE many, many, many unhealthy vegetarians (and some fat ones at that....). As a whole, however, vegetarians tend to have better lipid profiles, lower cancer rates, and greater lifespans. This doesn't mean that you cannot lead a healthy lifestyle by eating animals. For those who go into veggie lifestyles (especially vegan!) for 'health' reasons, I can almost guarantee that they will not stay with it. It is the ethical aspects and belief system that make one stick to things like this. As per your example of the buddhists, it is actually quite a bit like religion.
I agree that most vegetarians are healthier but I think I am just fed up from being in a college enviroment with a lot of uninformed decisions. The amount of times I have gotten into this same health argument with college girls thinking that salads and french fries will make them super heathly and toned like they want has just made me super frustrated with it.
Danny
__________________
Limitations are for people who have them.
Originally posted by dos: WOW! This is the most smokin' thread I have seen on JP's site!
quote:Now I'd throw myself in front of a bullet for another human, but animals?
I think there are many of us who would get in harms way for our pets....and not even think of getting in harms way for 'certain' humans [/quote]Really ?!?
Alright... Whoever wants to eat meat: Go ahead: I can't change your mind, unless you want to change your mind. Just if you eat meat or dairy, please eat organic and lean.
Can I get some more input from the Vegans/Vegetarians of this group?
Any info. I'd appreciate
Anna
Don't quit now Anna! It's only been a week! Just be realistic in your plight.....I was very gung-ho just like yourself when I first started my vegan lifestyle. Do what you can....lead by example, educate rather than lecture and many people will want to hear what you say. I would guess that since I became vegan back in 1988, I played a role in probably more than a couple of hundred people taking on a vegan lifestyle (family, friends, students etc.). That's a lot less carcass being eaten!! Also, there is a HUGE drop in the amount of meat being consumed anyway. People are looking for other options....geesh, just look at the popularity of the vegetarian foods in Whole foods, Trader joes etc. most of these people who buy this stuff aren't vegans, rather, they are people who are shifting their eating patterns to more healthy avenues. Whatever works right?
I used to be very supportive of PETA (for many years) but I no longer believe in all of the things that they stand for. I think some of the tactics used to influence people to go vegan are much like the tactics used by our current commander-in-chief with the whole 'vote for me or die' tactic. "Go vegan or die" just doesn't work for me. I also have a problem when their #1 poster girl, anti-fur activist, human barbie doll Pamela Anderson goes on Howard stern and gets on another guest for wearing fur yet she has on knee-high leather boots. Her excuse, they don't make this boot style (that she loves)in man-made materials....WTF?! Go away bimbo.
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
I also have a problem when their #1 poster girl, anti-fur activist, human barbie doll Pamela Anderson goes on Howard stern and gets on another guest for wearing fur yet she has on knee-high leather boots. Her excuse, they don't make this boot style (that she loves)in man-made materials....WTF?! Go away bimbo.
You knocking my Pam?!?!?!
God gives us all different gifts. Hers just happens not to be intelligent thought. hers are... well, you know!
Originally posted by dos: I also have a problem when their #1 poster girl, anti-fur activist, human barbie doll Pamela Anderson goes on Howard stern and gets on another guest for wearing fur yet she has on knee-high leather boots. Her excuse, they don't make this boot style (that she loves)in man-made materials....WTF?! Go away bimbo.
Yes, me too! I don't agree with this either!
Grrr! Good point about people trying to simply be healthier and hence switching to this diet...
And surely salads and fries won't make you buff! True, true, true!
And for sure, I am not quitting. I am very steady in my thinking
Speaking of food, I'm hungry. Taking a break from posting!
__________________
You live in too much of a logical world!
If you just stepped out of it and forgot the worldy limits, ANYTHING & EVERYTHING would be possible... - anna kubit
quote:Originally posted by RockHard:
God gives us all different gifts. Hers just happens not to be intelligent thought. hers are... well, you know!
God didn't give her those! [/quote]Well, those are fake, yes, but I was referring to her hair, her eyes, her butt and her smile... To me those are what's always been her best attributes. And her real ones were just fine!
Ok, that's a little harsh. It's ok for you to stick around Pam.....could you turn around a couple of times for me while you're here?!
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Interesting thread. Thanks everyone, especially Johnka and dos for your replies.
Anyone who has read Schlosser's Fast Food Nation or Robbin's Diet for A New America can't deny there is a very large problem with the way agribusiness provides our foodstuffs. This seems to manifest itself most in our meat and dairy items, but that may be because of the large amount of these items consumed in the US. Maybe we'd have a different set of problems if we all consumed GMO produce as well. Who knows.
I know that in our family, we have tried to drastically cut our meat consumption. Until recently when we joined a small local co-op (run by a friend) that verifies, slaughters and has its own organically raised meat and poultry. One of the mission statements of this co-op is to allow family farms to be sustainable so that we can get back to more organic methods.
Our dairy is something where we have not switched yet, but need to. The only local dairy that claims to provide milk from organically raised cows charges more that 2 times the amount of agribusiness milk and doesn't allow us to verify their claims. We need to do something quickly since we consume ungodly amounts of milk in our house with 2 young kids.
Veggies - I am looking to join another organic co-op as well. A larger and larger percentage of our produce is now GMO and labeling laws are completely inadequate in this regard. Who knows what tampering with the genetic structure of plants will do to us in a decade or so? ops:
I admire people like dos who have made a commitment to a vegan lifestyle, especially on a matter of principle. I personally am not principled against eating meat, but much like as been said here, want to reduce its consumption for health reasons.
Maybe I am becoming a wierd hippie in my middle age, but I make it a point to try to drink green or white tea daily, take some garlic in, and do some breathing exercises, among other things.
Ok, that's a little harsh. It's ok for you to stick around Pam.....could you turn around a couple of times for me while you're here?! [/quote]Yes... YES!!! That's the spirit! [img]smile.gif[/img]
Pamela Anderson and her personal flotation devices. Ugh. How about someone a little more natural looking, with muscles, like Jennifer Garner? Why isn't she ever in our 'Friday Fitness' profile?
Originally posted by Kaiser: Pamela Anderson and her personal flotation devices. Ugh. How about someone a little more natural looking, with muscles, like Jennifer Garner? Why isn't she ever in our 'Friday Fitness' profile?
Jennifer Garner? Why isn't she ever in our 'Friday Fitness' profile?
BABE!
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
I have a feeling that even if a lot of people stopped eating beef the relentless slaughter of animals would still continue. I see your point, but the fact of the mater is thats life. Emotions are a learned behavior. Everything is. Life as know it is all made up. Live your life as you please. Its a fake sick reality we all fall a slave too. Think about.
__________________
"When he was six, he believed that the moon overhead followed him. By nine, he deciphered the illusion, trading magic for fact, no trade-backs. So this is what it's like to be an adult? If he only knew now what he knew then."
Well this may have been addressed but I can't let it go just incase it hasen't.
Anna. Our teeth are different than a wolfs or a dogs, but not THAT different. They are certainly more similar to a dog or bear than they are to a cow or rabbit.
We have sharp teeth. He have incisors and we have canines. These are sharp teeth and the are there because they make us sucessful meat eaters. Further back we have molars which make us successful plant eaters, which in total makes us omnivores.
Please have something to back your argument up with before you post.
This link has more information on the types of teeth we have.
Originally posted by Anna Kubit: Our teeth are very different from let's say a wolf's teeth: We don't have fangs, etc. to kill and eat meat, LOL. So saying that we have sharp teeth is a bit exagerated, I think.
Meet being the most healthy option? I don't agree. Organic fruits, veggies, etc. are I think the best option. Supplement that with the putest whey protein, and you're eating very healthy without moral issues.
Dont forget though, not all meat chickens are raised that way. Just the other day I drove past a free range chicken farm, large sized paddocks with chickens out feeding in the grass and plenty of room. A lot of chicken labels nowadays push their more friendly (for lack of a better word) ways of breeding chickens for meat.
As for beef, the vast majority of beef is free range, out in the open paddocks. The majority of their life is about as peaceful as you could ever imagine. Most slaughterhouses minimise the time they spend in the yards, stress ruins the flavor and texture of the beef which means less money for them. Obviously some places will have better killing practises than others, you can do your research and find sources of beef that you feel minimise cruelty if you feel its neccessary.
Personally I have no problem eating meat. I grew up on a farm, we'd kill our own sheep and chickens and sent cattle to the local abbatoir to be killed and to the local butcher to be cut up.
As for beef, the vast majority of beef is free range, out in the open paddocks.
I don't think this is actually the case. I think the level of factory farming is pretty alarming. You probably see more 'free range' in your area but definately not here in the U.S.....especially california.
As far as the teeth argument goes. The fact that we are ABLE to be omniverous might play to the case that we don't NEED to eat flesh? I made reference to it earlier in this thread as Danny posted about the teeth as well. Still, I will argue that our teeth aren't all that great at eating flesh. I gave the example of trying to eat an uncooked, un-tenderized piece of beef or pork etc.....going to be real tough guys. The incisors are made for biting.....biting just about anythings that we can eat suitable size pieces of food. We might even be able to categorize humans in the 'opportunistic omnivore' class....in that I mean that we could well have evolved (teeth etc.) due to our ability to catch and cook prey? Just a theory, but hey, most of these points are all theoretical anyway.
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
I agree with you that our teeth are not meant for eating in the same way animals' teeth are and hence we should not compare ourselves to animals.
One of the links with 'listen' as part of the link gets a bit into this. Quite a cool audio..
PETA and similar sites make this argument all the time: If we had to catch, kill, skin, cut up and cook an animal ourselves, 99.9% of people would not eat meat. I believe this is true. People would be just too grossed out and emotional over this process. Because someone kills and cuts up an animal for us (I don't get those people), it is now OK for us to consume meat? I stick to logic: If one would not kill the animal, how can one eat it if it's done? Don't those 2 things contradict themselves?
Wow, this topic took off fast!
__________________
You live in too much of a logical world!
If you just stepped out of it and forgot the worldy limits, ANYTHING & EVERYTHING would be possible... - anna kubit
Anna, I agree. I think most people have basically taken the 'animal' out of the meat equation. By this I mean that everything is packaged or processed nicely etc. In reality, most kids don't even know that the chickens they see running around in movies etc. are actually the nuggets they're eating (although what's really in those nuggets might be debatable..) or that the cows they see at the fairs are the burgers in their happy meals. There is really no 'face' to the food if you know what I mean. We have made animals and the consumption of animals merely a 'part of the process' in a very factory-like scenario.
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Spood, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Crayons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Originally posted by BjsAust: Dont forget though, not all meat chickens are raised that way. Just the other day I drove past a free range chicken farm, large sized paddocks with chickens out feeding in the grass and plenty of room. A lot of chicken labels nowadays push their more friendly (for lack of a better word) ways of breeding chickens for meat.
As for beef, the vast majority of beef is free range, out in the open paddocks. The majority of their life is about as peaceful as you could ever imagine. Most slaughterhouses minimise the time they spend in the yards, stress ruins the flavor and texture of the beef which means less money for them. Obviously some places will have better killing practises than others, you can do your research and find sources of beef that you feel minimise cruelty if you feel its neccessary.
Personally I have no problem eating meat. I grew up on a farm, we'd kill our own sheep and chickens and sent cattle to the local abbatoir to be killed and to the local butcher to be cut up.
Whoa. Dos already touched on it, but...maybe that is true is Australia, but it is absolutely not true in the US. The two books I mentioned earlier have copious references, but it can be said that a very, very small minority of meat and poultry in the US is raised the way. It is extremely hard to find free range beef that is GRASS fed (as ruminants should be, not grain fed as almost all of them are) in the US, and most of the 'organic chicken' is neither free range but labeled 'cage free' which simply means that instead of horrible inhumane cages, they are let loose in a giant barn so stuffed with chicken, the unsanitary aspects of cages still exist, as does the disease, cramping, etc. I know because I am on the board of an organic meat co-op in the heart of the midwest and we still have to drive almost 6 hours to find a family farm that raises their livestock in that way.
Anyway, Anna thanks for bringing up this subject. While I don't agree with your and Dos' stand regarding not eating them because of cruelty, I do agree that the way we now raise our animals is cruel, but moreso, it is affected what we ingest. I wonder how many vehement pro-meat eaters here have read the books I mentioned and still don't fault agribusiness for turning what should be healthy and nutritional items into antibiotic and pathogen laden crap. Or how many of them know that the agribusinesses police themselves for working conditions, as well as set the FDA standards and do the testing and verification themselves. Or that they are allowed to sell the worst cuts of meat and poultry, the ones that are labeled to be unfit for grocery store sale, into food lunch programs.
Well guys, how many of you are familiar with these issues and still unconcerned?
Originally posted by BjsAust:
[qb]
Well guys, how many of you are familiar with these issues and still unconcerned?
When I become concerned enough I will simply switch to a butcher who knows where the meat comes from and pay a higher premium for it.
As for the teeth thing, I will agree at this point in our lives and perhaps in the past we were not designed to say rip flesh from bones, but that is really more the domain of true carnivores anyhow. It is possible that as omnivores we were simply opportunistic as you put it and ate dead animals that had been there awhile. Much like a bear will bury it's food awhile before eating it.
Either way i'll never buy into the concept that our teeth have no redeming qualities when it comes to ingesting flesh. We do and it most likely traces far back into our evolutionary past.
Discussion like this is of course good and what makes this forum and out free world great. We do however need to put such videos in perspective. Just as the agribusiness polices itself so did the people wanting to make them look bad police themselves when they create media content such as those videos.
You make great points above. Though for me the cruelty stands high as a reason for not eating meat anymore, very high on the list is the health portion of the argument. Before when I did not know about the conditions in the slaughterhouses; diseases, deaths, hormones, antibiotics, etc. etc., I ate meat thinking that it was good for me (protein from lean meat). But, now that I have gone through the data, it seems just gross to me to eat the meat, as for one, I don't know where it comes from, and two, there's a high likelihood that the meat is contaminated with hormones etc. and not pure. I agree that around here it is very difficult to see chickens running free on a farm, or cows or pigs for that instance.
I know this: I'd like to get involved in putting an end (or getting close) to animal cruelty. Also, I'd like to find good milk, eggs, and meat: Not so that I can eat them, but so I can recommend them to people who are not open to being Vegan or Vegetarian; my Parents for instance. I know many people who eat meat and I know that they have little clue as to what it is they are eating. For instance: "With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a day— 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate cows every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they sometimes drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse of antibiotics" (milksucks.com).
And there's this argument for milk: That cows make milk for their babies, not for humans... Nowhere in nature besides in the human species do we see old animals drinking milk, so why do we humans need milk at age older than 'baby?' Curious as to your opinions on this...
This has been an awesome discussion! Contradicting views, but that's what makes these conversations fun and intellectual!!
Anna
__________________
You live in too much of a logical world!
If you just stepped out of it and forgot the worldy limits, ANYTHING & EVERYTHING would be possible... - anna kubit
I don't know about why we have the teeth we do. I do know you can be very healthy without eating meat. I do know you can be very healthy eating meat.
I don't think you're going to find anyone that's going to say that torturing animals should be common practice. I don't think that stopping eating meat is the answer to ending horrific killing though...let me re-phrase that...I don't think it's the only answer.
I grew up working on a pig farm. When we had a roast we went out and shot one in the head and cooked it. I don't have much of a problem with it. I've done it my hole life. Ripped the heads off of chickes...chopped'em off of rabbits (rabit heads, not chickens).
IMO most things I eat from cereal to a bananna to a steak probibly has been tampered with at some time and is probibly not as healthy as it could be. We have one income for three people and normal bills ect...I can't afford organic stuff...I can't afford name brand stuff. So I'll do the best I can do with what I have.
IMO if you want to have a movement to help combat animal cruelty then I'm all for it. If you want me to change my eating habbits because animals are treated cruely...no.
First of all, I am of the belief that animals were put on this earth by God for Man. We have the rite to raise and kill them for food.
I also believe that Man is at the top of the food chain and this leaves us with rite to raise and kill them them for food too.
However, I do not aggree with the some of the Ways they are raised, killed, and the hormones that are pumped into them that we also consume.
Humans have been eating meat for thousands of years and I believe we were meant to do so.
I think more effort should be made to raise and feed animals naturally as they were thousands of years ago and use natural, humane methods of killing and butchering them. I could probably go on and on about this, but I think that many people will understand my point of view.
We are meant to eat meat and should.
__________________
\"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger\"
[/quote]Really ?!? 
ops:
Linear Mode
