Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
On our way home from the gym this morning, my wife expressed frustration with her scale weight of 148 pounds, even though she's been exercising a lot more (now up to 4 x week, consisting of 2 step classes and 2 "power" classes at the gym), and she (and I) have noticed improvments in her physique, including trimmer stomach, face, and better fitting pants. She talked about doing Weight Watchers, and I'm not sure how to guide her.
Not that I really know what I'm doing, but I generally try to follow Precision Nutrition (though probably closer to 80% compliance than to 90.....I'm still doing pretty well), a few TNT recipes, keep the carbs low other than heavy training days, avoid processed foods, etc. I've gotten her into smoothies and trying to up her protein and limit her carbs a bit, eating more frequently with smaller meals, etc. She does well when she actually listens to me, because I try to get my advice from reputable sources.
Other than the fact that I don't know anybody who has made a significant, lasting changes with Weight Watchers (unless anybody here can say differently?), she knows better than to worry about scale weight. She's been steadily at the gym for about 5-6 weeks now (after a couple years of knee injuries and 10-15 pound weight gain), and I think she's doing great. Would I like her to skip the step classes and replace it with some more weight training or intervals? Yes, but she's not really open to that. She likes the class atmosphere, and at least there are two weight sessions during the Power class.
Whenever I try to help her out and get her to read something, such as this forum, Precision Nutrition, trainer's blogs, or any "serious" diet strategies that I believe "work" better than WW, she's not willing to read it, saying that she "knows what to do."
Should I keep on her, or try to support her with whatever she wants to do? She's not a beginner, she has a good knowledge base, she's a PT, but she's falling into beginner mistakes and not focusing on the real gains she's making when she knows better.
Will wait for others who have actually done WW to chime in, but what I've understood is that WW works with points that are apparently easier to work with than calories & grams etc even though the latter would be better. The downside is that there's not really a whole lot of emphasis on higher protein intake nor on quality of food..
Seems like you are (like me) a detail/results-oriented person, while she is very sensitive to atmosphere etc. Especially since participants meet each other frequently IRL, WW might fit her personality better and consequentially might even result in better fat loss when she sticks to that approach better than the more logical approach she seems to 'resent' from what I hear (not wanting to read the literature etc).. .
Thanks Espi, those are good points. I honestly don't know a lot about WW, I have sort of grouped it (maybe unfairly) in with the kind of people who eat Lean Cuisine, Smart Ones, fat free cookies, and drink sugar-filled pomegranate juice thinking it's healthy. Perhaps I have judged. If she goes for it I'll try to get her to focus on higher-quality food.
I am trying to get her to read Berardi's 10 Habits of Highly-Effective Eaters article, and she's promised to at least read through the whole thing.
Yea I'm not going to battle her on the class atmosphere, she's having a great time and it's more physical activity than she had been doing, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. Plus with her history of knee problems (3 surguries) and the fact that she has a doctorate in physical therapy, I'll leave her to her own devices. At least she gave up running. Though that step class is ridiculous.
The best diet to follow is the diet that works for you (or her).
Lots of success stories with WW on the forum. Many went on to other things after finding success with WW but wanting a change (or changing focus to a different goal).
WW has a support system, meetings, groups, etc. that she might like, too. That could be part of the draw.
Also, it's "normal" food, just limited by points. It's clear what you can eat based on the lists and charts, and she can make her own choices based on weighing points of her favorite things. My sister did it and love that she could still have Taco Bell with her kids, she just made the choices that were fewer points and still satisfying.
It also gives you extra points to use on a free meal (or day?), so she can still have fun on date night or a night out with friends and not feel like she's off the plan.
As the the protein issue with WW (it's not as high as many here would like), it's fine. Especially if she's not lifting weights and wanting to look all jacked. If she wants to look slim and trim, she's awesome.
PN is too vague for many, unless you get into counting calories. The 10 Habits are great if you like that sort of thing, but for many, it's too free, while giving you too many restrictions at the same time.
Doctors are their own worst patients.. being a physical therapist , having a bum knee & yet do step classes ??? Maybe she's extremely well coordinated?
Unfortunately your idea of WW is the exact same as mine.. yet OTOH , it is true that it's 90% about the calories you eat vs what you expend, regardless of their quality, so technically speaking someone can lose fat on eating Oreo cookies & gain weight on the TNT diet. It's going to be hard to lose weight on cookies & troublesome to gain on a TNT diet, but it can be done..
At least, one crucial food item for most women has to be in the diet: a pc of dark chocolate every day.
If she's interested in fitness, but not interested in reading up here or with your sources, why not listen to The Fitcast while you are driving together. Just do it, like it's normal. Stick it on and see if she'll get into it. Pick one with a lot of Jonathan Fass (he's a PT PHD, too) that gives good and solid advice.
Lyle McDonald has some interesting thoughts on WW-his mother has followed this plan successfully for some time. It's definitely not for me-I need higher protein levels. I did see a special on WW that said it's not for those with higher protein needs & those with hypoglycemia.
Good idea about the fitcast, I'll see if I can put that on. I feel like if she started listening to Fass talk about all stuff she knows about, she would get into it, or at least see where i'm coming from. That show is what first introduced me to this site, t-nation, cressey, berardi, NROL, etc, and before I had a lot of "incorrect" ideas and beliefs about fitness which were hard to break from, but I am better having done that. Someone like my wife who is very smart and has a lot of high-level education, sometimes looks at forums and blogs as gimmicks. Maybe incidentally listening to Fass talk about glute medius function might do the trick after all.
She actually does okay with the step classes, I'm surprised.
my only knowledge of somebody on WW in my personal life, is--according my mother---my grandmother, who has been "on WW for 30 years and has never lost a pound"...i think that's where my assumptions have come from.
because in my mind, i was asking a question about whether or not WW would be a good idea, is it effective, etc., and since i've had success with something else, and when she's followed the same principles she has done well, too, i think it would be a good idea for her to continue that. what i knew about WW prior to posting was not positive, so i was ASKING A QUESTION to get more information. obviously i support my wife no matter what, i just didn't want her to set herself up to fail if WW wasn't a good program.
and OldGuy, don't bother wasting your (or my) time with that kind of shit. it's not appreciated.
Maybe the last part was rude (I hope you soft deleted so the other mods could get a chuckle) but the rest was on point.
So, if he was questioning the cabbage soup diet, you'd tell him to let her do it, too?
Just because you know, doesn't mean he (or others) do. So, it wasn't really on point at all.
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Originally Posted by Griffty Cent
thanks LD, but i no longer feel like this forum is a good place for me to be. won't be posting any more questions here.
omg. if you can't take that... this is the nicest forum on the internet, unless you go find some vegan yoga cooking forum. Grow a thicker skin and stick around.
So, if he was questioning the cabbage soup diet, you'd tell him to let her do it, too?
Just because you know, doesn't mean he (or others) do. So, it wasn't really on point at all.
Notice I didn't make any recommendation whether WW was they way to go or not. I was pointing out the error in his logic - which is he doesn't have the knowledge base to decide on any program being the right one for his wife. Although in the first post he already made the decision.
You and I, and even Berardi, would say that the best diet or exercise program is the one that the person stays on. So, in reading the first post, the best advice is STFU and let her try it. I'll even throw in "do your own investigation about what WW is, how it works and the reasons why many have found success with it so you can truly be the supportive husband."
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My mom, dad, and grandmother all did weight watchers. They loved it for the first couple months. Lost some weight. When they stopped the program they gained all the weight back. The group they went to never taught them how to change their lifestyle.
My grandmother still goes every week, but she doesn't lose any weight. But then again she doesn't stick to the diet.
So, if he was questioning the cabbage soup diet, you'd tell him to let her do it, too?
Just because you know, doesn't mean he (or others) do. So, it wasn't really on point at all.
omg. if you can't take that... this is the nicest forum on the internet, unless you go find some vegan yoga cooking forum. Grow a thicker skin and stick around.
i'll take the ribbing about the content of my questions/concerns which i admit were not phrased right, including my use of "support," but making sexual comments about my wife? maybe i haven't been around long enough to post 10,000 times on an internet forum, but how is that possibly okay? why should i be comfortable with that? maybe she's right not wanting to waste time forum-surfing.
my overall concern was that my wife HAS been making noticeable physical progress with her looks and how her clothes fit, but the scale hasn't really moved and she's starting to panic.
before she got back into the gym and was complaining about her weight, i would encourage her to read and do her own research, find other stuff to do (maybe full-body training) because running was not an option anymore, and she didn't want to do it. i tried to show her what i was doing when i was having success with fat loss, using some tips of berardi's tips and even a few gourmet nutrition and TNT recipes.
It seems like all the time we talk about body comp instead of scale weight, and sticking to a program for longer than a couple of weeks (she's only tried to clean up the diet in the past 2-3 weeks) and the weight will come off in time, not jumping from thing to thing when it doesn't work immediately and just focusing on the scale. it was frustrating me because she knows better and i thought she was running to WW out of desperation, when really she's on the right track. she's weight training more (even though the classes make her so sore that she can't move for a few days) and eating better, so she's put on some muscle. i'm not telling her to follow me to the ends of the earth with the diet, and i wouldn't even say she's "doing PN," i've just given her some tips about a decent breakfast instead of a Special K bar, replacing her Lean Cuisine (or skipping lunch) with a protein/yogurt/berry smoothie (which she enjoys), saying no to the cookies at work, maybe cutting out some of the carbs at dinner, and preparing some foods ahead of time instead of going out for lunch. given her PT background and the fact that she can rattle off muscle origins and innervations like Rain Man, i thought the fitcast environment and reading people like mike boyle, bill hartman, or eric cressey might be up her alley.
i had incorrect assumptions about WW based on my limited experience. i thought it was was the fat ladies did at work to count their Doritos points, but i was mistaken. and i believe i admitted i was wrong AS SOON as somebody corrected me.
i'll take the ribbing about the content of my questions/concerns which i admit were not phrased right, including my use of "support," but making sexual comments about my wife? maybe i haven't been around long enough to post 10,000 times on an internet forum, but how is that possibly okay? why should i be comfortable with that? maybe she's right not wanting to waste time forum-surfing.
my overall concern was that my wife HAS been making noticeable physical progress with her looks and how her clothes fit, but the scale hasn't really moved and she's starting to panic.
before she got back into the gym and was complaining about her weight, i would encourage her to read and do her own research, find other stuff to do (maybe full-body training) because running was not an option anymore, and she didn't want to do it. i tried to show her what i was doing when i was having success with fat loss, using some tips of berardi's tips and even a few gourmet nutrition and TNT recipes.
It seems like all the time we talk about body comp instead of scale weight, and sticking to a program for longer than a couple of weeks (she's only tried to clean up the diet in the past 2-3 weeks) and the weight will come off in time, not jumping from thing to thing when it doesn't work immediately and just focusing on the scale. it was frustrating me because she knows better and i thought she was running to WW out of desperation, when really she's on the right track. she's weight training more (even though the classes make her so sore that she can't move for a few days) and eating better, so she's put on some muscle. i'm not telling her to follow me to the ends of the earth with the diet, and i wouldn't even say she's "doing PN," i've just given her some tips about a decent breakfast instead of a Special K bar, replacing her Lean Cuisine (or skipping lunch) with a protein/yogurt/berry smoothie (which she enjoys), saying no to the cookies at work, maybe cutting out some of the carbs at dinner, and preparing some foods ahead of time instead of going out for lunch. given her PT background and the fact that she can rattle off muscle origins and innervations like Rain Man, i thought the fitcast environment and reading people like mike boyle, bill hartman, or eric cressey might be up her alley.
i had incorrect assumptions about WW based on my limited experience. i thought it was was the fat ladies did at work to count their Doritos points, but i was mistaken. and i believe i admitted i was wrong AS SOON as somebody corrected me.
Yes, those comments were out of line, but one person's comments on a forum shouldn't be enough to make you think the forum is a bad place. You will get that kind of crap on virtually every forum out there. Here, it was taken care of very quickly.
I don't think your initial perceptions about WW were abnormal. We get that basic question here every once in a while. It was a fine question.
The thing is that she might need to do WW (or whatever) for a while to find what she likes and doesn't like. Personally, I've done at least a half dozen different diets. Some worked better for me than others. All would have worked if I was willing to stick to them. Same with hers. All (reasonable) diets will work if she likes them enough to stick to them.
Random points (not time for paragraphs)
Lean Cuisine (and other frozen dinners) have a pretty good track record vs people making their own food. They have calories listed, are not huge portions, and you can't go back for seconds unless you are willing to pop another in the microwave.
There's no need for her to eat every x hours. I eat 2-3 times a day. The every 3 hour thing is old stuff and not really necessary. It's a PITA, too.
Many women don't like low or no carb. They do better and feel better and enjoy life and eating better with their carbs. 10 Habits is "low(er) carb."
Many women don't want to lift weights. The internet and magazine covers are filled with hot women that never touch a barbell or dumbbell.
A few more things about differences between people: some people don't do well on small meals while others thrive on them.. I've tried the 6 meals a day approach for a few years and never lost weight on it as I am never truly satiated. Yet, OTOH , nor am I ever really hungry.
Right now, there's a swing away from the old bodybuilding lore of eating every 2-3 hours and 'intermittent fasting' is rapidly becoming popular.. yet once again, there's another dogma looming ahead.
Those of us who get hypoglycemic easily when they haven't eaten for a few hours (my DH is one of them) do better with smaller more frequent meals as it keeps their blood sugar levels in line. He'd 'die' if he had to do the intermittent fasting!
Me OTOH feel fine with longer fasts, but get incredibly anxious on that approach.. so found a better one by eating a BIG breakfast and then skip dinner & only have some fruit & coffee in the afternoon. Leaves me enough calories to have 2 dinners at night or rather a starter (salad) as the first meal & the main course late at night.
There's something special about fruit & women.. seems they thrive better on more fruit in the diet. Also tend to do better on TKD (targeted ketodiets = smaller more frequent refeeds) vs CKD (cyclical ketodiets = larger weekend refeeds)
Perfecting my own diet took me years & probably I'm still not done yet.. It's obvious you want to help her badly and so did my boyfriend (now DH) but what works for him, didn't work for me. What is great is that you give her support whatever she decides to do.
The neat part about microwavable meals is that if the information is correct, you also know exactly how many calories you're eating. In a pinch this works well, especially if you then would add some other lean protein source. Outside protein powder or dairy (yoghurt, cc, quark) there's also neat stuff like frozen pre-cooked chicken breasts that
can be microwaved too. The smoked chicken breasts are totally awesome.
A few more things about differences between people: some people don't do well on small meals while others thrive on them.. I've tried the 6 meals a day approach for a few years and never lost weight on it as I am never truly satiated. Yet, OTOH , nor am I ever really hungry.
Thanks for the advice. However, before she started with snacks, she was eating a tiny breakfast, tiny (or skipped) lunch, and then wondering why she overeats at dinner, because she's so hungry due to not eating much all day. Shouldn't the snacks curb that?
Since she's started using some of my suggestions, she's not complaining about the strategies themselves, in fact she says she can do them. She agrees she looks better and her clothes fit more, but she just wants the scale to move.
It would be one thing if she couldn't tolerate the multiple meals and weight training or wasn't making any progress whatsoever, but she IS.
Again, she IS doing well physically in the past couple of weeks, she IS trimmer and her face IS thinner, all those physical improvements she wants, the scale JUST HASN'T MOVED YET. oh AND she's not weighing herself at the same time every day, often weighing herself AFTER breakfast, BEFORE she's gone to the bathroom, etc.
I feel like if she posted these concerns on this forum "I feel better and look better but the scale isn't moving", she'd be getting all the reassurance I'm trying to give her, regarding muscle gain and water weight, consistency with weighing, and all that. she can intellectually talk about those things but emotionally she's not acknowledging it.
she loves the power and step classes, i'm glad she's gotten into them even if i don't enjoy them. i would love to be able to do NROL/NROL4W with her, but the classes are what she likes and i'm over that. she at least needed to realize that because of her knee surgeries, running and the eliptical continued to cause pain every time she tried, and if she wanted to get back in shape, there's no getting around the fact that they weren't safe options anymore, I wanted her to look at other maybe more effective options.
Thanks for the advice. However, before she started with snacks, she was eating a tiny breakfast, tiny (or skipped) lunch, and then wondering why she overeats at dinner, because she's so hungry due to not eating much all day. Shouldn't the snacks curb that?
No. Snacks may in fact increase her appetite. They sure do for me.
If she is eating a tiny breakfast I would suggest she skip breakfast completely. Don't eat anything till lunch. This can be beneficial for a variety of reasons.
Well, for starters, you're expecting a woman to be rational about her scale weight. This forum is FULL of women who know better and we still get all neurotic about this shit in our darker moments. I don't believe it's an elemental "woman thing" but I do think it's an issue a lot of chicks have, as we hear about how tiny supermodels are and blah blah blah. Even those of us who know better, who don't care about weight, who most would think are terribly ungirly in that way (ie, me) get frustrated with the actual weight sometimes. Even though clothing size is small, body is tight, etc. It's weird. It's not rational.
So rationed reason doesn't always work, esp if someone is "making progress" but not "there" yet. If she were looking the way she wanted and were "there" and then found the scale was higher than she thought she wanted, it's easier to have the "fuck the scale" knowledge that weight doesn't matter. But if she's not "there" yet, there's not much one can do, necessarily, to make her not think in at least a small way, that if she would just lose those 10 pounds she'd be there.
And she's prolly right. But, the path isn't going to be linear. Depending on her body's tendencies, she could lose 5 pounds one month, then spend the next three losing nothing but getting smaller, as she makes some newbie gains, then she has a woosh and loses another 5, then she's steadily but slowly losing for a bit, then it stops and she's having a bloated week, then she wooshes again, then she spends some time climbing a bit, just to have it drop back down to almost as low as it was, then some more "stall" as she recomps some more and sees more definition, and so on.
So yes, she needs to find something to stick to. She needs to know what her intake is in some sort of way so that she can know if she should raise or lower it depending on progress. She needs to remain active throughout the day as that's where the majority of her caloric burn is. She needs multiple ways to measure her progress so that she can keep up the litany about how the scale doesn't tell the whole story. And she needs to know when to change if something truly isn't working for her. Unfortunately, one of those signs is the frackin scale.
Okay, I'm a WW lifetime member. Which means I lost my weight (in my case it was 30 lbs, over 10 years ago) and maintained it for 6 weeks.
At that point, it's like any other form of maintenance, you either maintain, or you don't. I didn't, and gained up and down over the years until I hit a new high...then I started to lose again.
It has nothing to do with the WW program. The program is truly a GREAT program for the average woman who wants to lose weight, isn't an athlete, and likes a support system.
It IS a restrictive calorie diet, just like any diet. A diet is a diet. The good thing is you can eat what you want. Yes, some eat crap...but eating a lousy diet is NOT following WeightWatchers. You are expected to drink your water, eat oils, eat your fruits and veggies (veggies are "free" to encourage people to eat them.) You aren't "forced" to exercise, but by exercising you are allocated more points to eat, and as we all know exercise and eating are good things.
Often people start it and just follow the basic guidelines and continue to eat a poor diet. Once they realise how much less hungry they are by eating good filling foods, the diet starts changing.
All meetings are different and you really have to find a leader you like. If you have a leader than encourages the silly WW snacks, they'll talk about that. Other leaders are big on other things. It's finding the right fit.
I think often about going back to WW and I have numerous times.
But currently I'm just trying to cut back calories and enjoy the books and podcasts from Leigh Peele. I find her very motivating, and perhaps your wife would also.
I say encourage your wife to go to a couple WW meetings, and find out for herself if it's what she would like to try. I tried PN and just couldn't do it, much too restrictive.
My wife wants to do Weight Watchers
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