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Mildly Agitated Discussions 1: Protein or Calories more important for lean mass gains
Are muscle mass gains more dependent upon excess calories or excess protein?
Reading a little bit about protein synthesis two things become clear; muscle mass gains are the product of a net increase in protein synthesis, and sufficient protein is required for protein synthesis. However, I'm not seeing anything (but by no means have done an exhaustive search of the literature) that states that a caloric excess is required. The book "Strength Training," from Human Kinetic and edited by Lee Brown, states on page 82, "....during periods of energy deficit...a high protein diet has been shown to be effective in increasing lean body mass." Unfortunately, this statement is not footnoted so I can't tell where the original research come from.
This has me wondering if excess calories are really necessary for lean mass gains.....notice I didn't say weight gain.
Another point of confusion is the statement that protein synthesis increases over the first 24 hours and remains elevated for the first 48 hours after resistance training. Protein breakdown is also elevated over this time period, but protein synthesis is far greater assuming that sufficient amino acids are supplied. This causes me to wonder about how to eat in order to maximize protein synthesis. In short, do I need to be in a calorie surplus, or a protein surplus for the entire 48 hours after a workout? If so, then working out four days per week, wouldn't that mean that I'd need a calorie or protein surplus.....pretty much around the clock?
I know that I'm overthinking things here, but I don't want to compromise my gains. I need to know if I'm eating enough protein (about 1 to 1.5 grams per pounds of lean body weight), and if I really need 3000+ calories a day to gain muscle mass. I don't think that I do. But, the common wisdom is that calorie surplus is a neccesity. Is it really?
Please note, that I'm not talking about eating at a significant deficit, but eating tons of protein. I'm just talking about eating at maintenance or a couple hundred calories below.
I don't remember the exact discussion, but in an old thread (like 3 years ago), one of our experts made a case for making gains with much lower amounts of protein than we bros usually think we need. He scoffed at the idea that someone needs to eat 30 grams of protein. I'll try to find the link. I don't know enough to agree or disagree, but it did get me thinking.
I don't remember the exact discussion, but in an old thread (like 3 years ago), one of our experts made a case for making gains with much lower amounts of protein than we bros usually think we need. He scoffed at the idea that someone needs to eat 30 grams of protein. I'll try to find the link. I don't know enough to agree or disagree, but it did get me thinking.
I'd like to hear Alan chime in on this one.
BTW, funny thread title!
That was Dos, because he doesn't eat a lot of protein and much of what he does eat is soy.
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I've seen the studies over the years showing that a few grams of branched-chain amino acids is enough to maximize protein synthesis post-workout. It was one of those notorious chocolate milk studies, IIRC. (Ask Alan about those!)
Or it may have been essential aminos, rather than BCAA. (We're going back a few years.)
At one conference, I asked the researcher doing the presentation how many grams of BCAA (or EAA) are in a glass of milk. He didn't know. Someone else -- I think it was Joey Antonio -- later told me that about 25% of the protein in milk is either BCAA or EAA. (It would be a much better story if I could remember the most important details!)
So if the magic number is 6 grams of BCAA or EAA, and milk has 8 grams of protein per cup, you'd need three cups of milk post-workout to maximize PWO protein synthesis.
I guess all this is interesting as far as it goes, but it's always seemed a lot easier to use a PWO supplement and make sure you have the minimum covered.
Are muscle mass gains more dependent upon excess calories or excess protein?
...This has me wondering if excess calories are really necessary for lean mass gains.....notice I didn't say weight gain.
...I know that I'm overthinking things here, but I don't want to compromise my gains. I need to know if I'm eating enough protein (about 1 to 1.5 grams per pounds of lean body weight), and if I really need 3000+ calories a day to gain muscle mass. I don't think that I do. But, the common wisdom is that calorie surplus is a neccesity. Is it really?
Please note, that I'm not talking about eating at a significant deficit, but eating tons of protein. I'm just talking about eating at maintenance or a couple hundred calories below.
Man, you really should be an AARR subscriber because anyone that posts questions requiring this much thought would love it. (I just nabbed my copy this month and this thread reminds me of it) LOL! If you did subscribe, you would already be familiar with the term "culking" which Alan claims he came up with and is used a lot on this board. In that article he makes claims that one can indeed make mass gains while eating at or near maintenance. In the second part of that article he talks about how to set up your macros to maximize your goals along with what are realistic expectations for your goals. In fact Alan does not advocate bulking or cutting for any of his athletes except for the bbing/figure ones.
Off the top of my head I can offer the following from my humble understanding of things.
1. Calories in is the very most important thing in this game. All other maniuplations that you do play a role far under this value. So know exactly what your daily burn is before you start to worry RE macros.
2. If you are really worried about getting in enough protein, you can eat more than enough by far and expect that your body will use the excess protein as energy (or like carbs). This of course assumes you have your daily caloric intake correct. I mean if you are eating 3K a day protein in exess some of that will have to turn to fat.
3. Newbies/untrained individuals and obese people will gain strength and muscles while losing lbs. Leaner people and highly trained people will not have this happen so easily so they have to get more exact.
Don't know if that helps or hurts but it is what I got.
Also LOVE the title... LOL!
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I know that I'm overthinking things here, but I don't want to compromise my gains. I need to know if I'm eating enough protein (about 1 to 1.5 grams per pounds of lean body weight), and if I really need 3000+ calories a day to gain muscle mass. I don't think that I do. But, the common wisdom is that calorie surplus is a neccesity. Is it really?
Please note, that I'm not talking about eating at a significant deficit, but eating tons of protein. I'm just talking about eating at maintenance or a couple hundred calories below.
Walking such a fine line compromises your gains. You have to decide what is most important. Maximum muscle and/or strength gains, minimizing fat gain, maximizing fat loss.
If you eat below maintenance, no matter the protein level, you will lose fat and probably stay static or lose a bit in the muscle dept. newbie gains aside, of course.
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Originally Posted by Lou Schuler
I've seen the studies over the years showing that a few grams of branched-chain amino acids is enough to maximize protein synthesis post-workout. It was one of those notorious chocolate milk studies, IIRC. (Ask Alan about those!)
Or it may have been essential aminos, rather than BCAA. (We're going back a few years.)
At one conference, I asked the researcher doing the presentation how many grams of BCAA (or EAA) are in a glass of milk. He didn't know. Someone else -- I think it was Joey Antonio -- later told me that about 25% of the protein in milk is either BCAA or EAA. (It would be a much better story if I could remember the most important details!)
So if the magic number is 6 grams of BCAA or EAA, and milk has 8 grams of protein per cup, you'd need three cups of milk post-workout to maximize PWO protein synthesis.
I guess all this is interesting as far as it goes, but it's always seemed a lot easier to use a PWO supplement and make sure you have the minimum covered.
1 cup of whole milk contains: 647mg of leucine, 403mg of isoleucine, and 468mg of valine or about 1.5g of BCAAs.
About 25% of the P in whey protein is BCAAs, so a scoop of your typical protein powder contains between 4-6g of BCAAs.
one of our experts made a case for making gains with much lower amounts of protein than we bros usually think we need.
I don't remember who it was but they said on some podcast (fitcast?) that they assumed that you needed huge amounts of protein as well, but thier professors disagreed. So, in an effort to disprove them he only ate 75 grams of protein a day for 6 months figuring that he'd lose muscle mass. But, he didn't lose any mass at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Schuler
I've seen the studies over the years showing that a few grams of branched-chain amino acids is enough to maximize protein synthesis post-workout. It was one of those notorious chocolate milk studies, IIRC. (Ask Alan about those!)
It seems to me that we've done tons of research into the acute effects of training, and nutrition, post-workout nutrition, etc. But, I don't see much in the way of research on the intermediate and long term effects. This is a part of where my confusion lies. I hear the things that you're saying here all the time. But, I've also heard that protein synthesis after a training session is at its highest at 24-36 hours after a workout. And that it can last for about 72 hours. Obviously a post workout meal isn't going to last for 36 hours.
According to the 72 hour window or time, anyone training 3 days per week is constantly in a state of elevated protein synthesis (with the exception of the period immediately following workout, but prior to PWO meal). So, do I need to constantly be supplying protein in order to maximize this? Is this a case for a protein rish meal before bed?
Also, if we're in a state of increased protein synthesis then this throws out the notion of eating in a deficit on non-training days, but a surplus on training days. This was initially my plan, but according to this information that doesn't seem like a sound practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Dog
Walking such a fine line compromises your gains. You have to decide what is most important. Maximum muscle and/or strength gains, minimizing fat gain, maximizing fat loss.
If you eat below maintenance, no matter the protein level, you will lose fat and probably stay static or lose a bit in the muscle dept. newbie gains aside, of course.
Right now, It's minimizing fat gains, while working out for performance increases.
As for what you're saying I can't say that I disagree. I've read that protein synthesis is a process that the body will ditch when energy demands far exceed energy supplied. But, I've not seen any precise definitions or guidelines. I haven't seen any research that looks at protein synthesis rates over an intermediate period of time, while controlling for different calorie levels. Protein synthesis is such a slow process, and there are so many interfering variable such as water weight, glycogen level fluctuations, etc.. You can't simply look at yourself in the mirror and see results from week to week. So, how can you see changes in results? Over a short period of time its impossible. Rather than spending six months experimenting with my own body I'd like to see if any research exists to answer these questions.....I can't find it.
Additionally, we all know that newbies defy the rules, but I haven't seen any research into exactly why. And how long does the "newbie effect" last? Because, I've been working out now for about ten months and I'm still experiencing it. I've only been eating at or slightly above maintenance for six weeks or so. But, prior to that I was having no issue putting on muscle mass while on a significant calorie deficit. Logic would seem to dictate that the increased calories will result in increased protein synthesis, but wheres the research into intermediate and long term protein synthese to support that assertion?
Muscular hypertrophy can occur even in rather extreme caloric restriction. The energy, however, has to come from somewhere. The trials that do show hypertrophy are typically animals, who are gaining muscle in one section while losing in others.
Years of nitrogen balance data shows that energy restriction increases nitrogen requirements, so protein intake has to increase to maintain nitrogen balance.
Not much work has been performed on anything tighter controlled than this, and acute protein synthesis work does not allow for information specific to this, as its related to 'one muscle' type situations.
To max out protein synthesis, you are looking around 10g EAA, or 20-25g protein.
According to the 72 hour window or time, anyone training 3 days per week is constantly in a state of elevated protein synthesis
reality may be a tad different than this
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Additionally, we all know that newbies defy the rules, but I haven't seen any research into exactly why.
look harder?
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And how long does the "newbie effect" last? Because, I've been working out now for about ten months and I'm still experiencing it. I've only been eating at or slightly above maintenance for six weeks or so.
enjoy being a noob?
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But, prior to that I was having no issue putting on muscle mass while on a significant calorie deficit.
A semi fat noob? excellent
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Logic would seem to dictate that the increased calories will result in increased protein synthesis, but wheres the research into intermediate and long term protein synthese to support that assertion?
none
calories themselves do not drive protein synthesis per se, but are permissive of protein synthesis
We all got to start somewhere. I reckon even you were a noob at some point.
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Originally Posted by cycomiko
Muscular hypertrophy can occur even in rather extreme caloric restriction. The energy, however, has to come from somewhere. The trials that do show hypertrophy are typically animals, who are gaining muscle in one section while losing in others.
That thought hadn't even crossed my mind. So, more of a transfer than a net gain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko
To max out protein synthesis, you are looking around 10g EAA, or 20-25g protein.
This is what I don't understand. I've heard this several times, even in this thread, but "max out" in what way? And over what period of time? It's the time component that is throwing me for a loop.
For how long after resistance training does protein synthesis occur? Is it only the period directly after, or is it for the next few days? Obviously, there are ebbs and flows. But, for how long after training are we in a net positive protein balance? And how long are those 10g EAA's going to last? How often do they need to be resupplied? Or, is this the area where the research still needs to be done?
I don't have the same level of access to research (or the money to pay for it) like many of you have. It would take me months to find anything like this, while several of you can recall it off of the top of your head. That's why I'm here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko
calories themselves do not drive protein synthesis per se, but are permissive of protein synthesis
I guess the conclusion is that sufficient calories, and sufficient protein allows for protein synthesis. Sufficient equals not creating an energy deficit (at least not a substantial one). And lower energy intake will necessitate a higher protein intake. But, you still can't maintain an energy deficit and an increase in protein synthesis beyond the amorphous "noob" stage.
Man, you really should be an AARR subscriber because anyone that posts questions requiring this much thought would love it. (I just nabbed my copy this month and this thread reminds me of it) LOL!
I'd like to. But, that costs money.....I got none of that right now. It's Xmas presents for the kids or AARR.
Calories are far more important. I gained the majority of my weight with high calories, high carbs and only around 1 gram of protein per lb of my body weight. The use of protein powder was very sporadic. Sometimes I would go months without any protein supplementation.
However, I have been cutting calories and thus milk (I only eat 3 meals a day+1 snack), so I began consistent whey supplementation (to ensure I reach at least 1 gram of protein per lb of bodyweight).
With that regiment, my cuts are getting deeper and my bulk belly is slowing dissapearing.
Calories are far more important. I gained the majority of my weight with high calories, high carbs and only around 1 gram of protein per lb of my body weight.
Were you doing a GFH bulk, or something more moderated? How far above maintenance were you? How much fat did you gain?
Were you doing a GFH bulk, or something more moderated? How far above maintenance were you? How much fat did you gain?
What's a GFH bulk? I did what anyone should do in order to bulk-use common sense. Keep calories high, keep carbs high, and keep protein at least at 1gram per lb of bodyweight.
I don't even know what my maintenance level is/was (and still don't). I do know that at one point during bulking I was eating BK Triple Whoppers to ensure enough calories-so I was most likely eating around 4,000 to 4,500 calories. What I do is use the scale and mirror-if I am gaining weight, but I don't look like shit, then I keep going. Another thing I do is pick a waist size number and do go over it; that ensures I don't get too fat for my preference.
As far as fat gained, I chose 39" as a waist size not to go over. During my bulk, my waist went from 32" to now 38". I am currently cutting, because I feel I went too far when considering fat gain. However, since everything is filled out pretty well (chest, lats, etc), then I can hide my bulk belly pretty easily. Nevertheless, I am cutting currently.
No. That was before I started training around June, 2005. I had no guide or mentors, except for soft cover books and exercise lists. I went from 125 to 145-150lbs in the summer of 2007. I read and researched heavily.
However, during that 17-month stint, I was smoking cigarettes, not being consistent, not eating enough; all the things that negatively affect progress (basically behaving like the average young adult).
Then around August of 2007, my friend returned from Afghanistan. That's when shit got real. From then to the present, I went from 150 with 13.5" (pumped) arms to a peak of 208lbs with 17" arms. Since I'm cutting, I'm losing weight and inches slowly (My arms are now 16.25" due to water loss).
Once I lose some inches off of my waist, I plan to bulk again. I'll probably stop at 17.5" arms. I actually have distaste for the modern bodybuilding look (if you ever see them in real life, they look way more comical).
Calories are far more important. I gained the majority of my weight with high calories, high carbs and only around 1 gram of protein per lb of my body weight. The use of protein powder was very sporadic. Sometimes I would go months without any protein supplementation.
However, I have been cutting calories and thus milk (I only eat 3 meals a day+1 snack), so I began consistent whey supplementation (to ensure I reach at least 1 gram of protein per lb of bodyweight).
With that regiment, my cuts are getting deeper and my bulk belly is slowing dissapearing.
Good shit, I completely agree with this.
You don't need as much protein as many people think, but once you've got enough, more protein can be a useful way of getting more calories that will be less likely to end up as fat.
I think 1 gram per lb shouldn't be hard to get at all though.
It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.
Mildly Agitated Discussions 1: Protein or Calories more important for lean mass gains
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